Abandoning status as "Islamic Republic"

[Itachi]

It is upto Pakistan to decide if it wants to be secular.

Bro, we already decided that we will NOT be secular. Why do you think we(the sane Pakis) are educating you and your OP friend?
End of discussion.

 

[Levina]

Come on, you just came to troll the new guys(me), don't lie.

In your dreams!!!

And when did you become so compassionate about others?

I always was...
Trolling is what suits you, I dont switch to rantings and bring in random topics like rapes, India vs Pak etc etc at the drop of a hat.

On topic:
Adding/ removing Islamic republic to a country's name should not be much of an issue.
Look at Malyasia, despite being a muslim country it has an airline named after a hindu god (Garuda). That goes on to prove that it respects the minority in its country. Or Pak should take a leaf from Turkey which is secular (well mostly) even while having muslims as the majority.
Being tolerant towards other religions would only bring peace. JMHO!

 

[graphican]

NEVER! Pakistan is made in the name of Islam, it will stay as Islamic Republic of Pakistan.

Islam is not its problem, non-Nuslim terrorists are troubling it. Solution doesn't lie in leaving Islam out of state, solution lies in bringing Islam in - in letter and spirit.

 

[Judge]

Pakistan was made for Muslims 'to live in peace without Hindu domination'. So it is logical that it should be an Islamic Republic. If it was to be secular, then why separate from India?

That bird has come and flown.
A Nation has the right to decide where its future lies, it need not be held to the dogmas of the past.

If today, Pakistan decides that it wants to de-link religion to Governance, then they have full legal and moral right to do so. No one can question 'what was the need to separate from India.

On the other hand, if Pakistan decides it wants to remain an "Islamic State'' where one set of people are superior citizens and others are considered second grade people, essentially fascist, then they have the legal and moral right to do so. No one can question that today 'why are you doing this'. The citizens of a country have the full right to decide where their future lies.

 

[Itachi]

Trolling is what suits you, I dont switch to rantings and bring in random topics like rapes, India vs Pak etc etc at the drop

This is the only thread I have visited since three months and the last one was which I made myself about the Ottoman Empire and its sinking of the world's first aircraft carrier, is that India-related?

You just assumed since I was so informed on you guys.

I am not going to reply to you since I already posted something to you in "Whatever".

 

[SQ8]

P.S Removing it won't really affect the economical or the political situation. It would improve the social condition.

You are suggesting that renaming people changes who they are? There are massive firms whose ethos did not change and remained the same after rebranding.. what makes you think the same will work for 190 million people.

On the other hand, if Pakistan decides it wants to remain an "Islamic State'' where one set of people are superior citizens and others are considered second grade people, essentially fascist, then they have the legal and moral right to do so. No one can question that today 'why are you doing this'. The citizens of a country have the full right to decide where their future lies.

Ill remind my Doctor(who is Hindu).. and my Accountant(who is Christian).. that this is happening. I dont think they noticed it while living their lives comfortably.

 

[Sugarcane]

that is wrong. It is upto Pakistan to decide if it wants to be secular. It is nothing wrong to want a separate nation based on religion (coz of majority) but forming a Muslim Majority but secular country.

Sure, It's up to Pakistan and Pakistanis to decide what they want, but if they are looking secularism than they should recognize change the narrative of last 7-8 decades, acknowledge mistakes and move ahead.

 

[Judge]

No. Because Pakistan was under commonwealth till then which disallowed it to have its own constitution. The draft for 1956 constitution was personally pushed by Liaqat Ali Khan.

Bull crap.
India made its own Constitution and declared itself a Republic in 1947 itself.

 

[Itachi]

Ill remind my Doctor(who is Hindu).. and my Accountant(who is Christian).. that this is happening. I dont think they noticed it while living their lives comfortably.

I think he was watching too much Indian Media.

 

[M.AsfandYar]

I already did. They are taking care of their labor just fine. Whoever is unhappy can go home. Capiche?



So you mean countries that were involved in an illegal war in Iraq didn't violate any human rights? - Not to forget that all but few of them have genocides under their belt!



You are no body to predict the 'future' merely based on your poorly constructed myth you call an opinion.



Pakistan needs to create its own solution. Secularism is a farce and it doesn't mean prosperity. What we need at this hour is to safeguard the country from both religious nutbags and libtarded leftists. Both of them tend to have a version of reality which is obliviously discrediting of the majority opinion. Both of them live in a self inflicted delusion of being right while everyone who tends to disagree with their narrative is a crazy conspiracy theorist.

Couldnt have said it better.

 

[Pakistani shaheens]

So by simply changing our name gonna solve our all problems

 

[halfilhal]

Pakistanis like to discuss what is wrong with them and what will fix them without doing anything, so there....

 

[timetravel]

Ill remind my Doctor(who is Hindu).. and my Accountant(who is Christian).. that this is happening. I dont think they noticed it while living their lives comfortably.

Do you want to live in a Hindu/Jewish/Christian Nation as its Muslim Doctor/Accountant?

if No then you are essentially doing to others what you don't want to be done to yourself. No problems for a common person like you and me, but this does not reflect good on a person like Jinnah. Such thinking cannot be part of a great leader. And if Jinnah had such thinking then I can accept him as a common person, but he is not even remotely close to being a great world leader.

If yes, then why make separate Pakistan? I am sure Hindus would have treated Muslims better, then how you are treating Non Muslims.

 

[Judge]

Ill remind my Doctor(who is Hindu).. and my Accountant(who is Christian).. that this is happening. I dont think they noticed it while living their lives comfortably.

Maybe you ought also inform this to the Ahmadis whose mosques are demolished by the cops in Punjab or their grave stones defiled by people mixed with cops, or the HIndus in Sindh whose women are kidnapped.

Before you term it a Law and Order problem understand the mechanics of it.

On the one hand, the State encourages all the people(97% Muslim), that Pakistan is for Muslims. The State shouts this from every rooftop and every window, that Pakistan is for Islam and Muslims.
Add to it that it teaches in school that Pakistan was hard won by Muslims after struggling against the evil Hindus and Christians.


This automatically puts one kind of thoughts in the 97% of the population where they see the rest as 'enemies of Pakistan' and 'enemies of Islam'.

And on the other hand, you say that Pakistanis acting against minorities is a law and order problem.

The law and order problem is flowing directly because of the narrative of the Pakistani State.

Some people take that narrative to extreme levels(some are encouraged by Mullahs) and take action on it, while others dont take it to that level but condone it(an example being the Judges in Sindh High Court letting the kidnappers free because per them the girl converted 'voluntarily' and that must be 'encouraged').

 

[RescueRanger]

Actually Pakistan is very bit like India, if not worse. Cases here are just not given enough attention. Are you an expert in how exactly to divide up India? No right? Most Indians here are the same



That post made me laugh. One-third of people in Pakistan want to leave the country



A state for Muslims.

You seem angry, it is okay to be angry my friend. I do not know you so I cannot comment on why you feel so much anger towards your nation-state, but I think I have an idea, For just like you, we all want to see Pakistan prosper and grow and bloom into the vision our forefathers dreamt about and strived harder than anyone to secure a foothold for us.

This nation and all that it stands for is more than just a footnote in history, the problem stems from the fact that many of us, feel dare I say it, that faith has no place in our homes and our hearts anymore. The guile of science has brought us closer, but it has also shut us in.

You see, your post and the ideas you propose carry merit in so much that yes retrospectively and introspectively we have a duty to those who came before us and those who will carry the mantle after we are gone to reflect and review and see what we can do better, it is only logical.

I suppose you are disillusioned and feel forlorn by what you possibly read, hear, see in todays chaotic world, rest assured the practices of these Khawarij are not that of Islam and the message of our beloved prophet (SAW), the proof can be found in an account written in history:

I heard Allah's Apostle (pbuh) saying, "There will appear some people among you whose prayer will make you look down upon yours, and whose fasting will make you look down upon yours, but they will recite the Qur'an which will not exceed their throats (they will not act on it) and they will go out of Islam as an arrow goes out through the game whereupon the archer would examine the arrowhead but see nothing, and look at the un-feathered arrow but see nothing, and look at the arrow feathers but see nothing, and finally he suspects to find something in the lower part of the arrow." - Virtues of the Qur'an: Bukhari :: Book 6 :: Volume 61 :: Hadith 578

So you see, what you say carries merit insomuch that we must review and reflect and correct our direction to match that which was laid down by our forbearers, one based on a modern disciplined nation based on Islamic values and principals, not a theocracy NO but a true Democracy.

Our reflection must include forgetting the blame game and not blaming X, Y or Z rather looking inward and seeing what can "WE" do to make our nation great, as those who came before us with misty eyes and eager hearts had envisioned, as just restitution for the labours of our forefathers for all our efforts today are not equal to the sweat of their brows.
Politics like that hearts of men is fickle, and people can more from leader to leader and party to party, but faith, in faith lies our true identity, and I remember watching George Galloway's speech back in early 2000's, where he summed this up perfectly:

In your opening post you mentioned who we as Muslims of Pakistan want women to "cover up", is this practice of modesty and discretion limited to our borders and our faith alone?

Let me provide you with an example of one of the most progressive nations in Asia, one of Japan:
" In an attempt to explain the so-called ‘traditional ideas’ in Japan, Hendry mentioned the correlation between Confucian principles and Japanese society. According to him, it is related to ‘the
indigenous family system where men were superior to women, who were expected to attend to [man’s]
every need’.

This idea still encourages Japanese women to stay home, do the housework and care for their families, while the men are considered as the financial supporters.

Since Japanese society is based on this notion, women’s work patterns are unique when compared to those of women in Western industrial countries.

A vast majority of Japanese women want to stay at home after getting married because they believe that being mothers and wives is their responsibility. Moreover, most husbands still want their wives to adhere to this traditional idea. This generates gender inequality at the workplace and home." : Source: http://www.bunkyo.ac.jp/faculty/lib/slib/kiyo/Int/it1901/it190105.pdf

Funnily enough in 2012 half of Japanese women surveryed responded that they would prefer to be home-makers. Source: Japanese women and work: Holding back half the nation | The Economist

I have highlighted the part in pink to bring to your attention, why is it that in the developing world our "litmus test" for success and "model" development must mirror the west, why is an apple green and an orange, well "orange"? Something's are dictated by nature.

But I digress, coming back to Pakistan, according to the Pakistan Integrated Household Survey (PIHS) 2001-02, at the end of the 1990s, only one in four adult women (aged 10 and older) participated in the labour force, a far lower rate than the nearly 70 percent participation rate for men. Women’s rate of labor participation is higher in rural areas (30 percent) and lower in urban areas (15 percent), while male participation rates are close to 70 percent in both regions.

An ILO report in 2013 stated that though the female labour force participation rate has increased in recent years, converging with the South Asian average, it ranked tenth lowest out of 189 countries in the world.7

Source: http://www.ilo.org/wcmsp5/groups/pu...lamabad/documents/publication/wcms_222834.pdf

The common argument levied against Pakistan and many other Muslim countries is that female participation outside the home is low and this has a detrimental impact on development, growth and contradicts the need for "Self Actualisation" - as suggested by Abraham Maslow. But how does one measure "self actualisation"?

Year upon year we have seen women moving into roles that were traditionally the domain of men, if this is not progress than what is? But in our desire to bring equality and justice, let us reflect on our time honoured traditions and our own internal dynamics.

Women have and continue to play a pivotal role in society, I may be thought of as old fashioned but I do feel that this watering down of the role of the homemaker is actually detrimental for society, modesty and discretion are respectable values to adhere to and protect women from the insufferable attitudes of men.

People often use the example of the WEST to put down the EAST, but consider this:
The UK has the highest rate of teenage pregnancy in Europe(Source: http://www.fpa.org.uk/sites/default/files/teenage-pregnancy-factsheet-august-2010.pdf), young women living in socially disadvantaged areas are less likely to opt in for abortion. This creates a trend whereby you have a young person who is unable to continue her education, a new study from Sheffield University has found that a shocking 17% of teenagers are leaving school functionally illiterate and unable to cope with the challenges of everyday life. (Source: 17% of school leavers 'functionally illiterate'

* Source: BBC News - Female unemployment rises to a 20-year high of 8.3%

This then creates a trend where the young person will have no transferable skills, will have to intermit further education for sake of child care and as a consequence will fall out of the labour market, relying on public funds "social support" to sustain the family. Not only is this trend negative for the labour market of the country as suggested in the unemployment statistics of 2012: Female unemployment rises to a 20-year high of 8.3%*, it also creates a barrier for social mobility for the parents and the children.

This in turn creates a household where education may not be valued, where the child may not get a nurturing environment and the child may mirror the actions of the parent(s), thus creating a void of skilled vocational and highly educated labour force. http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/f3448602-aa1e-11e3-8bd6-00144feab7de.html#axzz3O7AbVPL9

And their lord hath heard them (and He sayeth): Lo! I suffer not the work of any worker, male or female, to be lost. Ye precede one from another. - The Qur’an, verse 3:285.

In closing, yes OP we should review and correct our direction. However abandoning the very "IDENTITY" that we are born into is like splicing the umbilical cord from an fetus in the womb of it's mother.

No matter what you read, what you see, NEVER forget your true identity, these worldly accolades, titles, designations will remain on this earth and we will return to our maker one day, and on that one day let us be judged for what "WE" have set before us, and not what our ancestors sent before them. Ameen

"The kingdom of the heavens and the earth and everything in them belongs to Allah. He has power over all things." ( Surat al-Ma'ida: 5:120)