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A young prince is reimagining Saudi Arabia. Can he make his vision come true?

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The new generation of the elite to GCC... ;)




The open-air living room at one of Prince Mohammed bin Salman residences.
Photographer: Luca Locatelli for Bloomberg Businessweek



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Prince Salman has no choice but to succeed. The world is changing and is reducing its dependence on oil. Previous attempts at modernization have always stalled.
 
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Prince Salman has no choice but to succeed. The world is changing and is reducing its dependence on oil. Previous attempts at modernization have always stalled.


Nop ! :disagree:

There was only ‘one’ before the 1979 Iranian revolution and the seizure of the Grand Mosque in Mecca by Sunni radicals later that year.

Then there was the Iran–Iraq War (September 1980 – August 1988), the Soviet–Afghan War (December 1979 – February 1989), the fall in oil prices in 1986 from $27 to below $10, the fall of the Berlin Wall in August 1989, the Gulf War (August 1990 – February 1991), the September 11, 2001 attacks and the Iraq War (March 2003 – December 2011).

And only survive in the middle of all this. ;)


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Nop ! :disagree:

There was only ‘one’ before the 1979 Iranian revolution and the seizure of the Grand Mosque in Mecca by Sunni radicals later that year.

Then there was the Iran–Iraq War (September 1980 – August 1988), the Soviet–Afghan War (December 1979 – February 1989), the fall in oil prices in 1986 from $27 to below $10, the fall of the Berlin Wall in August 1989, the Gulf War (August 1990 – February 1991), the September 11, 2001 attacks and the Iraq War (March 2003 – December 2011).

And only survive in the middle of all this. ;)


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Our very own "Frank Zappa" was a great success indeed.





  1. "My ancestry is Sicilian, Greek, Arab and French. My mother's mother was French and Sicilian, and her Dad was Italian (from Naples). She was first generation. The Greek-Arab side is from my Dad. He was born in a Sicilian village called Partinico ..."[8]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Zappa#cite_note-10

Love the hair.

Anyway don't forget conflicts in Yemen next door or the Arab Spring. Not an easy place to be.

Best of luck.. I really hope the prince can pull it off. I am a Moroccan living in the Netherlands, but I am a great supporter of the 2030 vision and I hope the Saudi nation can pull it off. I wish we had someone like MbS in Morocco to do these kind of reforms, even though Morocco is not doing bad, considering it is one of the most stable islamic countries. I was wondering though if the Islamic Military Alliance was also an initiative by the prince ? Is there any link to the vision or is it totally independent ?

It was also funny to see my university ranked 117th on that list. :D

Thanks bro.

Morocco is doing alright as you wrote which is a very good thing. Many of your reforms post-Arab Spring have also been good and worked well. Now you just have to get the economy going and give the youth opportunities for employment so the best educated lot will not have to look for work abroad.

Supposedly it was his idea. I am actually not sure but others were probably involved as well. Both within KSA and outside of it. I think the idea is good but we will have to see how it will work in practice.

http://vision2030.gov.sa/en

https://twitter.com/saudivision2030?lang=ar

Nijmegen?:D I have visited the Netherlands (Amsterdam mainly) a couple of times and there are a lot of Moroccans but is there a strong Moroccan/Arab community in Nijmegen?
 
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Deputy crown prince: ‘Sky is the limit’ for Saudi society amid reforms
http://www.arabnews.com/node/1088471/saudi-arabia

JEDDAH: The “sky is the limit” for Saudi Arabian society if people are willing to embrace the change, the Kingdom’s Deputy Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman has said.
In a wide-ranging interview with American columnist David Ignatius, the deputy crown prince reflected on the ground-breaking changes presently taking place in the Kingdom under the Vision 2030 plan.
He told Ignatius that the crucial requirement for reform is public willingness to change a traditional society, saying the era of extreme religious conservatism is over.
“If the Saudi people are convinced, the sky is the limit,” he was quoted as saying.
David Ignatius, who was in the Kingdom this week as part of the press corps accompanying US Defense Secretary James Mattis, wrote about Saudi Arabia in an in-depth opinion article for The Washington Post.
The article drew heavily on his 90-minute conversation with Deputy Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman.
“Two years into his campaign as change agent,” the deputy crown prince “appears to be gaining the confidence to push his agenda of economic and social reform,” Ignatius wrote.
“Change seems increasingly desired in this young, restless country,” he wrote. He quoted a recent poll which indicated that 85 percent of the public, if forced to choose, would support the government rather than religious authorities on policy matters.
The article also reveals that 77 percent of those surveyed supported the government’s Vision 2030 reform plan, and that 82 percent favored public music performances attended by men and women.
During the conversation with Ignatius, the deputy crown prince was optimistic about President Donald Trump; the prince described him as a president who will bring America back to the right track.
“Trump has not yet completed 100 days, and he has restored all the alliances of the US with its conventional allies,” Ignatius quotes the deputy crown prince as saying.
The article talks about the growing ties between Saudi Arabia and the US as evidenced in the discussions with Mattis during which the possibility of additional US support was discussed “if the Houthi insurgents in Yemen don’t agree to a UN-brokered settlement.”
The deputy crown prince favored a relationship of equals between Saudi Arabia and the US. “We have been influenced by you in the US a lot,” he told Ignatius. “Not because anybody exerted pressure on us — if anyone puts pressure on us, we go the other way. But if you put a movie in the cinema and I watch it, I will be influenced.” Without this cultural nudge, he said, “We would have ended up like North Korea.”
Explaining to Ignatius about why Saudi Arabia has been wooing Russia, the deputy crown prince said: “The main objective is not to have Russia place all its cards in the region behind Iran. (We have been) coordinating our oil policies (recently with Moscow) in what could be the most important economic deal for Russia in modern times.”
The deputy crown prince also talked about the pace of economic reforms, which he says “appear to be moving ahead slowly but steadily.”
The prince said that the budget deficit had been reduced; non-oil revenue increased 46 percent from 2014 to 2016 and is forecast to grow another 12 percent this year. Unemployment and housing remain problems, he said, and improvement in those areas is not likely until between 2019 and 2021.
Ignatius describes the deputy crown prince as “the instigator of (the) attempt to reimagine the Kingdom,” and observes that “unlike so many Saudi princes, he wasn’t educated in the West, which may have preserved the raw combative energy that is part of his appeal to young Saudis.”
According to the deputy crown prince, “extreme religious conservatism in Saudi Arabia is a relatively recent phenomenon, born in reaction to the 1979 Iranian revolution and the seizure of the Grand Mosque in Makkah by Sunni radicals later that year.”
“I’m young. Seventy percent of our citizens are young,” he told Ignatius. “We don’t want to waste our lives in this whirlpool that we were in for the past 30 years. We want to end this epoch now. We want, as the Saudi people, to enjoy the coming days, and concentrate on developing our society and developing ourselves as individuals and families while retaining our religion and customs. We will not continue to be in the post-’79 era,” he said. “That age is over.”


@Sharif al-Hijaz ;)
 
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So the changes will depend on the population will to change, and most of the population is young and willing to change, which in other words means that there will be changes to the Saudi society.. it is clear as water..
 
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Nop ! :disagree:

There was only ‘one’ before the 1979 Iranian revolution and the seizure of the Grand Mosque in Mecca by Sunni radicals later that year.

Then there was the Iran–Iraq War (September 1980 – August 1988), the Soviet–Afghan War (December 1979 – February 1989), the fall in oil prices in 1986 from $27 to below $10, the fall of the Berlin Wall in August 1989, the Gulf War (August 1990 – February 1991), the September 11, 2001 attacks and the Iraq War (March 2003 – December 2011).

And only survive in the middle of all this. ;)


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Saudi Arabia is in a war in Yemen and there's Syria. So Saudi Arabia being in conflict doesn't really explain why it announced this modernization -- its most ambitious yet.
 
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Saudi Arabia is in a war in Yemen and there's Syria. So Saudi Arabia being in conflict doesn't really explain why it announced this modernization -- its most ambitious yet.

Oh, it's nothing that ! Compare to the past (Cold War - Bipolar world - and instability beginning end Cold War).
 
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Honestly speaking the royal families of Arabia should also reform. No more monthly allowances just because you belong to the ruling family (House of Saud says hello), nepotism and corruption.

Allowances should only be given to the first 2 generations that descend from a monarch. Meaning his children and grandchildren. Afterwards not any longer.

For instance such extravagance at a time of big budget deficits shows a very bad example.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...an-oligarch-300million-yacht-buying-spot.html

The more I think about it the more it should be clear that the society should not be the only ones that have to reform. KSA should eventually become a constitutional monarchy whether the House of Saud wants this to happen or not.

This is a difficult topic to speak about (let alone openly inside KSA/GCC for obvious reasons) but one can only imagine how many billions have been wasted by the wrong people. The wealth of the nation/people/country not a few select families. This is criminal and un-Islamic. This should no longer be tolerated although I know that most House of Saud members have to work for their own living (relatively speaking) nowadays (15.000 + people!) but a lot is yet to be done in this regard.

In short absolutism is an outdated form of governance. It won't work in KSA either/anymore on the long run. This also goes for the clergy and the Al-ash-Sheikh monopoly/God-given influence.

I hope that the people in power, at least the young generation (the old are hopeless in this regard) will understand this before it becomes too late. Greed, corruption, nepotism and mistrust are terrible things.

Absolutism is actually quite an alien thing for Arab (pre-Islamic) and even Islamic civilization. Pre-Islamic Arabia was very democratic and direct participation by various communities, representatives, tribal chiefs etc. was the norm. The legacy of this also reached Islam in the form of Shura Councils.
 
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Honestly speaking the royal families of Arabia should also reform. No more monthly allowances just because you belong to the ruling family (House of Saud says hello), nepotism and corruption.

Allowances should only be given to the first 2 generations that descend from a monarch. Meaning his children and grandchildren. Afterwards not any longer.

For instance such extravagance at a time of big budget deficits shows a very bad example.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...an-oligarch-300million-yacht-buying-spot.html

The more I think about it the more it should be clear that the society should not be the only ones that have to reform. KSA should eventually become a constitutional monarchy whether the House of Saud wants this to happen or not.

This is a difficult topic to speak about (let alone openly inside KSA/GCC for obvious reasons) but one can only imagine how many billions have been wasted by the wrong people. The wealth of the nation/people/country not a few select families. This is criminal and un-Islamic. This should no longer be tolerated although I know that most House of Saud members have to work for their own living (relatively speaking) nowadays (15.000 + people!) but a lot is yet to be done in this regard.

In short absolutism is an outdated form of governance. It won't work in KSA either/anymore on the long run. This also goes for the clergy and the Al-ash-Sheikh monopoly/God-given influence.

I hope that the people in power, at least the young generation (the old are hopeless in this regard) will understand this before it becomes too late.


Things have already been done. Others will follow...


Quote (In French) :

Arabie Saoudite : le roi Abdallah dégraisse les princes

Maghreb Intelligence
septembre 29, 2010


Le roi d’Arabie Saoudite, Abdallah Ben Abdelaziz, prouve au fil des jours sa détermination à aller jusqu’au bout dans les réformes qu’il a initiées depuis son accession au trône.

La décision la plus significative dans ce sens, a été celle visant les privilèges accordés aux membres de la famille royale. Même si les mesures prises n’ont pas été médiatisées, la population saoudienne en fait ses gorges chaudes, appréciant la démarche du souverain saoudien. En effet, le protecteur des lieux saints a ordonné à tous les organismes étatiques, à l’intérieur comme à l’extérieur du royaume, de considérer tous les hauts responsables-y compris les princes-, comme des citoyens comme les autres. Surtout, lorsqu’il s’agit d’utiliser les services publics. Ainsi, la cohorte de princes-environ 3000- n’a plus le droit d’utiliser la Saudi Airlines pour ses déplacements personnels sans régler rubis sur l’ongle. Tous les princes doivent désormais régler les prix des billets en première classe de leur cassette personnelle. Chose qu’ils ne se faisaient pas par le passé. De plus, une circulaire a été adressée à toutes les ambassades et les bureaux de représentation à l’étranger en vertu de laquelle les chancelleries saoudiennes ne seraient plus autorisées à régler les frais de séjour des princes dans les palaces des grandes capitales mondiales ni le prix de location des dizaines de voitures de luxes souvent commandés par eux et leurs familles. Lorsque certains membres de la famille régnante sont venus se plaindre auprès du roi Abbdallah, ce dernier a sèchement répondu : « Vous oubliez que chaque prince a un salaire dès sa naissance et ne paie ni impôts ni taxes ni essence ni électricité ni eau ni même le téléphone. Je pense que c’est déjà trop… ».



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Honestly speaking the royal families of Arabia should also reform. No more monthly allowances just because you belong to the ruling family (House of Saud says hello), nepotism and corruption.

Allowances should only be given to the first 2 generations that descend from a monarch. Meaning his children and grandchildren. Afterwards not any longer.

For instance such extravagance at a time of big budget deficits shows a very bad example.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...an-oligarch-300million-yacht-buying-spot.html

The more I think about it the more it should be clear that the society should not be the only ones that have to reform. KSA should eventually become a constitutional monarchy whether the House of Saud wants this to happen or not.

This is a difficult topic to speak about (let alone openly inside KSA/GCC for obvious reasons) but one can only imagine how many billions have been wasted by the wrong people. The wealth of the nation/people/country not a few select families. This is criminal and un-Islamic.
I agree to the allowances part and the wasted Billions to satisfy some egos, but a constitutional monarchy!? we never had had that experience in the Muslim world, at least not in the Arab world as far as I know.. that might lead to putsches (coups) and creation of republics, this is the only experience witnessed throughout the Arab world.. Although I do not agree with absolute(ist) monarchy, the best will be to loosen a bit of the absolute part of it.. but one has to stay prudent in doing so..Mostly in KSA, Jordan, Morocco and other GCC countries, because the alternative is thousands of time worst, it is either a military Junta governing, or some chaotic democratic wannabe government..
 
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Things have already been done. Others will follow...


Quote (In French) :

Arabie Saoudite : le roi Abdallah dégraisse les princes

Maghreb Intelligence
septembre 29, 2010


Le roi d’Arabie Saoudite, Abdallah Ben Abdelaziz, prouve au fil des jours sa détermination à aller jusqu’au bout dans les réformes qu’il a initiées depuis son accession au trône.

La décision la plus significative dans ce sens, a été celle visant les privilèges accordés aux membres de la famille royale. Même si les mesures prises n’ont pas été médiatisées, la population saoudienne en fait ses gorges chaudes, appréciant la démarche du souverain saoudien. En effet, le protecteur des lieux saints a ordonné à tous les organismes étatiques, à l’intérieur comme à l’extérieur du royaume, de considérer tous les hauts responsables-y compris les princes-, comme des citoyens comme les autres. Surtout, lorsqu’il s’agit d’utiliser les services publics. Ainsi, la cohorte de princes-environ 3000- n’a plus le droit d’utiliser la Saudi Airlines pour ses déplacements personnels sans régler rubis sur l’ongle. Tous les princes doivent désormais régler les prix des billets en première classe de leur cassette personnelle. Chose qu’ils ne se faisaient pas par le passé. De plus, une circulaire a été adressée à toutes les ambassades et les bureaux de représentation à l’étranger en vertu de laquelle les chancelleries saoudiennes ne seraient plus autorisées à régler les frais de séjour des princes dans les palaces des grandes capitales mondiales ni le prix de location des dizaines de voitures de luxes souvent commandés par eux et leurs familles. Lorsque certains membres de la famille régnante sont venus se plaindre auprès du roi Abbdallah, ce dernier a sèchement répondu : « Vous oubliez que chaque prince a un salaire dès sa naissance et ne paie ni impôts ni taxes ni essence ni électricité ni eau ni même le téléphone. Je pense que c’est déjà trop… ».



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Yes, but what was dealt with was only part of the iceberg. I will not call it the tip of the iceberg as that would not do it justice but the unfortunate reality is that the issue of corruption, nepotism, free allowances remain obstacles. Smaller than once and the current reforms will make those obstacles even smaller but in a perfect world they should not even exist.

In general I find it more and more hard to defend the notion that certain families (current ruling families who again were/have been predated by 100's of other dynasties - the Arab world is home to the oldest dynasties in the world and first known rulers) can dictate the future of the countries/peoples that they rule without the peoples direct participation.

Political reforms (real ones) are absolutely necessary. First and foremost we need a real constitution. Secondly there should be an freely elected Shura Council (parliament) representing ordinary people (politicians chosen by the citizenry) and a Shura Council (call it the House of Lords) were members elected/chosen by the House of Saud sit. Thirdly a third Shura Council (made up by senior members from both chambers and independent members - highly qualified/well educated/experienced people in short, should make the final decision on important matters. This way all parties in the society will have a direct say.

Fourthly absolutism should end and instead a constitutional monarchy should emerge with an elected prime minister. The King should serve as a unifying figure that transcends politics and as a figure with certain veto powers and possibly the last say. However that last say should be monitored by independent bodies so this last say won't become harmful to the country/people.

The clergy should also reform and understand that what is modern-day KSA is the cradle of Islam and that what is modern-day KSA is the native home of almost all major Islamic sects and we have followers of all those sects to this very day in the different provinces and historical regions of KSA. Be it Sunnis of the Shafi'i, Hanbali, Maliki or Hanafi fiqh, Sufis, Shias (Twelver, Ismaili, Zaydi) etc.


What is the problem exactly? I am not buying this "we are not ready yet" nonsense. Are we talking about the same KSA which has a literacy rate of almost 100%, which is the most urbanized Muslim nation on the planet of this size/population (80% +), where 70% of the population are youth of which the vast majority is highly educated and well-connected to the remaining world (highest social media presence in the world per capita) etc.? That KSA? Or shall a few radicals (very vocal ones) shape our entire future forever like it has been the case for 40 years? Give Saudi Arabian women more power and you will see HUGE positive steps on all fronts alone. The same Saudi Arabian women who OUTNUMBER men in the universities (home and abroad) and who are sadly DENIED their RIGHTFUL AND HISTORIC place in the current society since at least 1979.
 
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I agree to the allowances part and the wasted Billions to satisfy some egos, but a constitutional monarchy!? we never had had that experience in the Muslim world, at least not in the Arab world as far as I know.. that might lead to putsches (coups) and creation of republics, this is the only experience witnessed throughout the Arab world.. Although I do not agree with absolute(ist) monarchy, the best will be to loosen a bit of the absolute part of it.. but one has to stay prudent in doing so..Mostly in KSA, Jordan, Morocco and other GCC countries, because the alternative is thousands of time worst, it is either a military Junta governing, or some chaotic democratic wannabe government..


Or this (Only the chaos):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_presidential_election,_2012

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood_in_post-Mubarak_electoral_politics_of_Egypt


No ! We are not ready yet, stable...



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