A Tipping Point in the US-China-Vietnam Triangle

[xunzi]

Get ready to host US GI Joe. LOL

 

[frequency]

Congratulations, you launched a pirate raid. Meanwhile:

Chinese domination of Vietnam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Trung sisters' rebellion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Even melted down your bronze drums into a trophy horse statue.

Dunno where these Vietnamese get their arrogance from. I'm not gonna argue with you guys over this lol. Its self evident how much you are similar to Chinese, while Chinese are not similar to Vietnamese. No Chinese ever took a Vietnamese name, only Vietnamese takes Chinese names, etc.

Hahahaha! You make me laughs! Vietnam is spelled Vietnam. China is spelled China. So simple. Do you see Vietnam has China in it? Lol!

 

[Kyle Sun]

There was never a chinese domination in Vietnam. The fact is in today's reality. Lol! You still believe you can fly huh?

You are arguing with yourself.

 

[Aepsilons]

I am all for it. Any political party today that have 'communist' in its name might as well substitute in 'loser'. This is a meeting between potential political allies, not ideologues trying to one-up each other.

You have an erudite view, and a progressive mindset, Sir. I had a conversation with my friend Thanh about this issue today during lunch he (is Vietnamese, and came to the US as a refugee in the early 1990s), he told me about how his grandmother was sent to a camp after the war, how his grandfather was a south vietnamese army officer --- and how he was abused in the camp after the end of the war. I didn't know how his family really endured so much after the fall of Saigon, in fact his story is just one drop in the ocean of South Vietnamese experiences' after the conclusion of their country's civil war. I was surprised to hear that Thanh still has a deep animosity towards the government in Hanoi. In a way i can empathize with him since his family really did suffer a lot after the end of the war. I think a lot of Vietnamese here in the United States , specially those who have family members who fought for SVN still have an animosity towards the 'North Vietnamese'. But that is just my observation as an outsider looking in.

amazing. and that is the man that once studied in the USSR, fluent in russian, a hardliner.

Mr. Greene from NPR said it best today when he said, "The Vietnamese are at a bifurcation ; will they look to the United States and integrate with the western economy, the united states, and diversify their markets , or will they look to integrate with the chinese market and chinese political ideology?"

A pertinent, and deep reflective point.

I grew up listening to propaganda, and that might affect how I view the US. I don't believe in "yesterday enemy, today friend" fairy tale. VN-US might be as well friend-with-benefits. Both sides approach each other with different purposes in mind. A few agreements to boost the economy are welcome, but arms contracts are different matters. This will bring the US further into SCS matter, and increase the tension in both the region and around the globe. I am sure China will come up with some reasons to further their military activities in SCS, suppress any involving parties to keep the US out their "personal bathtub". And with that, war is not too far.

Thanks bro. Honestly, in my view, I think its good that Vietnam diversifies her relationships and her partnerships. In the end, the Vietnamese Government should look to prioritize the interests of their people, identify with the United States on some issues, but not necessarily on all issues. At the end of the day, Vietnam has a land border with China; both have a growing bilateral trade relationship that has already exceeded $60 Billion this year (okay, that's larger than the economies of Laos + Cambodia combined --- to put it into perspective in the Vietnamese context).

Keep an open palm, an open hand. That's the best view for the Vietnamese leadership.

 

[jhungary]

So i heard today from hearing NPR --- that the Vietnamese Head of the Communist Party visited Obama today. What's the thoughts about that --- this Vietnamese-American entente? What's your view on this Sir @gambit , @jhungary @Viet @xesy @biendong @liubang @NiceGuy, @Yorozuya @Carlosa et al?

Nguyen Phu Trong and President Obama

as I said many hundred time before, you never make relationship (Sounded like having sex) for money, you make new diplomatic relation when you have a common threat.

Right now, it's the fear of China that bring US and VIetnam together, and as long as China continue to be a perceived threat by the Vietnamese, this is going to continus as the old partner of Vietnam- the Russian, felt back to Chinese camp

 

[biendong]

So i heard today from hearing NPR --- that the Vietnamese Head of the Communist Party visited Obama today. What's the thoughts about that --- this Vietnamese-American entente? What's your view on this Sir @gambit , @jhungary @Viet @xesy @biendong @liubang @NiceGuy, @Yorozuya @Carlosa et al?

Nguyen Phu Trong and President Obama

This is big leaf forward.

 

[dichoi]

ou are clown of SU and CN before 1972 in your logic.

No.

Before 1972, China is clown of Soviet Union too.

 

[Kyle Sun]

No.

Before 1972, China is clown of Soviet Union too.

You logic is in chaos.
too ? With who ? You ?

Kid you know nothing about SU and CN.

We hated each other since we denied the request of building a long wave broadcasting station in qingdao and combined fleet.It was 1958!

Clown of SU will not deny the request of SU . You need to think about your response when SU or RU wanted to use your navy base. That's so called CLown of SU.

 

[XiaoYaoZi]

Thailand can´t be compared to Vietnam. I suggest you read a bit in history: China treats the siamese more as ally, while the vietnamese most as enemy. second, the siamese have neither moral nor scruple. they can side with china today, but japan tomorrow, if the latter offers more money and protection.

Don't be too sentimental! If you are enough mature, you should care more about gains and losses rather than right and wrong. All the relations of countries are the sublimation of interests that mean gains and loss. The current and future interests are always far more important than the entanglement in past history, which is well known for all politicians. As you said, Siamese is capricious, but everyone is like that too to different extents .
What you said like,"China treats the siamese more as ally, while the vietnamese most as enemy.", is just because we have the common border, your Vietnamese always liked to make troubles in the border in history. For the central dynasty government the stability of the regime is very important, any troubles you made in border are very unacceptable to them. In the traditional tributary system, the tributes of small neighboring nations always were always far lower than the largesses returned by the central dynasty government. Because a generous returned-largess is a big money for you and insignificant to us, the peace of the border is more important to us(That seem like the relation of China and North Korea, you can say we are buying peace). That is worthy for us as a so big country. In comparison, a suppress to your nation is too expensive, but a suppress was always a crowning calamity to you! That is all the things for Vietnam as a trouble maker in border or a vassal state to China in all history. For Siamese, we have no common border, so there is no such problem.
In modern times, the relation between a little one and a big one is far different with the relation between a big one and an another big one.The importances of the China-Vietnam relation are far different in our eyes and your eyes. That can be easily distinguished in the your and our trade lists. Where is our position in your trade list, and where your position in our trade list. The one's position of the others' trade list explain the one's importance in others' eyes very much. the relation between the Super big powers is very sophisticated and protean just like what you have seen about the relations of China-US, China-Russia and US-Russia. They are always swaying between friend and enemy, or the relations are always a complex hybrid of friend and enemy. We are friends today, but we may become enemies tomorrow. We never complain it for virtue or evil, just as we know it is just because of the complex interests.
For the relation between a little one and a big one(like Vietnam-China or Vietnam-US), you may get a lot by being closer to anyone, but for them the interest from you is too limited. So "betraying you" as you accuse us in 1972 is small loss for anyone(China and US), but it is a very big loss for you. So dont fall into the perplexing disputes of big powers, you shouldnt keep too close to anyone.
I think Thailand has very rich experience to process the balance of the relations with US, China and Japan. They know keeping an appropriate distance to anyone.

 

[mike2000 is back]

amazing. and that is the man that once studied in the USSR, fluent in russian, a hardliner.

Agree an irony indeed. Good to see vietnam getting closer to the U.S/West.
Even though i must say vietnam is very similar to china in many fields(no matter how both countries try to deny it due to their hatred of each other. Lol). For example when their leaders visit western countries they are often met with protests of oppression/democracy. just like below it shows how vietnamese rallied at white house to protests for democracy/freedom of expression. Much like chinese do when their leaders visit the west.
Hopegully VCP can soon open up more and be more liberal/allow morw freedom of expression. This will bring vietnam and the U.S/west even closer.

Obama pledges to visit Vietnam during meeting with Communist Party chief - The Washington Post

Urban warfare, people warfare. In fact we already did that and the US and SVN govt had to employ "strategic hamlets" to counter that. And there shouldn't be any "ifs", because we cannot change the past.

You Vietnamese shouldn't try and rewrite history just because of todays political environment/tensions with China. I said the same thing with Chinese members here who were trying to do the same thing just because they hate the KMT and trying to say its the CCP who led china in the fight against Japan not the KMT.
Arguing about current events and your country position or questioning the other party competence/legitimacy is one thing, but trying to rewrite your own history for political reasons is damn wrong/childish to be honest.
So , yes without massive Chinese and soviet support (material, manpower,logistics, equipment etc) VCP would have never been in power today in the first place, nor would they have sustain fighting the French, much less the U.S. They would have been eradicated longgggg ago. Just like without Japan invading China and weakening the KMT and giving space/room for the communists to regroup/arm up and recruit hundreds of thousands/volunteers from countryside, the CCP would have never lived to ruled China today. Lol. You shouldn't let your ego/bias cloud your judgement/view. These are mere facts. If you like you both can keep arguing about it yourselves(as i said, you both are very much alike in many things/ways anyway. lol).

 

[Jlaw]

Hehe, A Canadian Vietnamese, China-hater bought a Chinese smartphone with high price that can buy Iphone, and it failed after two days, bla bla bla, "good" story.
Crebility comsuming, Is your personal character or common character of Vietnamese? I am thinking

Canadian Vietnamese will go online and start dissing Chinese. In their private life when asked what group they belong to, most will lie and say "I am Chinese--------------------------from Vietnam. My great, great grandfather was Chinese, so I am too..."
I had a Viet friend with last name Tran. Totally Viet. Speaks Vietnamese only, not Chinese. Parents are both Vietnamese, but when asked he say he is Chinese.

 

[frequency]

You are arguing with yourself.

Hehe, A Canadian Vietnamese, China-hater bought a Chinese smartphone with high price that can buy Iphone, and it failed after two days, bla bla bla, "good" story.
Crebility comsuming, Is your personal character or common character of Vietnamese? I am thinking

China has no credibility in terms of technology and machinery. The only credibility they got is Shanghai noodle. LOL

Canadian Vietnamese will go online and start dissing Chinese. In their private life when asked what group they belong to, most will lie and say "I am Chinese--------------------------from Vietnam. My great, great grandfather was Chinese, so I am too..."
I had a Viet friend with last name Tran. Totally Viet. Speaks Vietnamese only, not Chinese. Parents are both Vietnamese, but when asked he say he is Chinese.

Your Vietnamese friend, just like some Vietnamese are insecure and don't know themselves and culture and history to admit that being a Viet is far better than a Chinese.

 

[liubang]

I grew up listening to propaganda, and that might affect how I view the US. I don't believe in "yesterday enemy, today friend" fairy tale. VN-US might be as well friend-with-benefits. Both sides approach each other with different purposes in mind.

That is something many Americans don't understand. Yahoo commenters tend to lean on the conservative side of the American politics. Many haven't forget their some 5 figures of death tolls in compare to the 7 figures of Vietnamese death toll. Some felt that Vietnam and the Philippines are just a burden to the USA. And that with the USA's back, those 2 wouldn't come to the table to negotiate with China.

Those are of course very stupid opinions. I can't speak for the Philippines. But Vietnam had always been walking between a thin line. They never felt comfortable enough to "initiate" escalation with China because of the USA. And of course, the USA is playing their own game. They coming to this willingly so they have much to gain.

But in fairness, many of these commenters are also in favor of it because China is view in a much more negative light. With all these folks running for the presidency. People that say they will be tough on China (in 2012 and now) tend to have a slight bump in their rating for a while.

 

[dichoi]

You logic is in chaos.
too ? With who ? You ?

Kid you know nothing about SU and CN.

We hated each other since we denied the request of building a long wave broadcasting station in qingdao and combined fleet.It was 1958!

Clown of SU will not deny the request of SU . You need to think about your response when SU or RU wanted to use your navy base. That's so called CLown of SU.

I know that China betrayed Soviet Union 1969 when China attacked on border China-Russia , just for USA to know intention of China that China is ready to change from Socialist pact side to Imperialist side. In 1972 China did it., Is this true ?

in cold war, Soviet Union is Vietnam's ally. Vietnam let SU navy use Cam Ranh bay. In exchange Soviet Union provide for us modern weapon, This is both side common interest. Why not ?

 

[xesy]

Agree an irony indeed. Good to see vietnam getting closer to the U.S/West.
Even though i must say vietnam is very similar to china in many fields(no matter how both countries try to deny it due to their hatred of each other. Lol). For example when their leaders visit western countries they are often met with protests of oppression/democracy. just like below it shows how vietnamese rallied at white house to protests for democracy/freedom of expression. Much like chinese do when their leaders visit the west.
Hopegully VCP can soon open up more and be more liberal/allow morw freedom of expression. This will bring vietnam and the U.S/west even closer.

Obama pledges to visit Vietnam during meeting with Communist Party chief - The Washington Post


You Vietnamese shouldn't try and rewrite history just because of todays political environment/tensions with China. I said the same thing with Chinese members here who were trying to do the same thing just because they hate the KMT and trying to say its the CCP who led china in the fight against Japan not the KMT.
Arguing about current events and your country position or questioning the other party competence/legitimacy is one thing, but trying to rewrite your own history for political reasons is damn wrong/childish to be honest.
So , yes without massive Chinese and soviet support (material, manpower,logistics, equipment etc) VCP would have never been in power today in the first place, nor would they have sustain fighting the French, much less the U.S. They would have been eradicated longgggg ago. Just like without Japan invading China and weakening the KMT and giving space/room for the communists to regroup/arm up and recruit hundreds of thousands/volunteers from countryside, the CCP would have never lived to ruled China today. Lol. You shouldn't let your ego/bias cloud your judgement/view. These are mere facts. If you like you both can keep arguing about it yourselves(as i said, you both are very much alike in many things/ways anyway. lol).

I never denied the support support from Soviet and China during VN war contributed a lot to the final victory against France and US, yet admitting it does not mean I agree with erasing out the human factor in the war. Yes, there were Chinese and Soviet specialists and troops worked and fought in VN, but who suffered the most casulity, both on manpower and infrastructure? And what part of my quote is rewriting history? Are you trying to say those "strategic hamlets" were just for fun?

That is something many Americans don't understand. Yahoo commenters tend to lean on the conservative side of the American politics. Many haven't forget their some 5 figures of death tolls in compare to the 7 figures of Vietnamese death toll. Some felt that Vietnam and the Philippines are just a burden to the USA. And that with the USA's back, those 2 wouldn't come to the table to negotiate with China.

Those are of course very stupid opinions. I can't speak for the Philippines. But Vietnam had always been walking between a thin line. They never felt comfortable enough to "initiate" escalation with China because of the USA. And of course, the USA is playing their own game. They coming to this willingly so they have much to gain.

But in fairness, many of these commenters are also in favor of it because China is view in a much more negative light. With all these folks running for the presidency. People that say they will be tough on China (in 2012 and now) tend to have a slight bump in their rating for a while.

I agree with you about the thin line VN always walking. Before between Soviet and China, now between US and China. VN tries to balance out between the 2, but not always successful.