A step in the wrong direction

[gambit]

Maybe similar to Korean war we did not want a neighbour to become an underdog of US and hostile. Plus Mao was weak upon the beggings of Hu Zhi Ming. Of course, we had obligations for the communist movements and were supporting the good side of the country, the communists at that time.

Finally...We are getting somewhere.

So what you are saying is that China had no real obligations to get involved in Viet Nam. The ideological obligation you mentioned is really an option. Post WW II, Viet Nam was still nominally under another country's jurisdiction, namely -- France. Therefore, Viet Nam had no treaties with China to hold over China's head, correct ? Viet Nam had no debt to call from China, correct ? In other words, saying that Mao had an 'obligation' was a strain on the imagination.

This means what I have been saying all along is true -- that if China stayed out of Viet Nam post WW II, the Vietnam War would 99.999% NOT happened. The US would have rebuffed France and Indochina would have been under UN trusteeship towards independence.

By the way, it was the Viet Minh who invited France back into Viet Nam, did you know that ? Probably not.

Are you not thankful that you became a citizen of free world because of Vietnam war?

Right...So am supposed to be grateful to China ?

 

[Sanchez]

Finally...We are getting somewhere.

So what you are saying is that China had no real obligations to get involved in Viet Nam. The ideological obligation you mentioned is really an option. Post WW II, Viet Nam was still nominally under another country's jurisdiction, namely -- France. Therefore, Viet Nam had no treaties with China to hold over China's head, correct ? Viet Nam had no debt to call from China, correct ? In other words, saying that Mao had an 'obligation' was a strain on the imagination.

This means what I have been saying all along is true -- that if China stayed out of Viet Nam post WW II, the Vietnam War would 99.999% NOT happened. The US would have rebuffed France and Indochina would have been under UN trusteeship towards independence.

By the way, it was the Viet Minh who invited France back into Viet Nam, did you know that ? Probably not.


Right...So am supposed to be grateful to China ?

1, Not really. French surrendered to the Japanese. In 1945 after Japan's defeat Hu zhi ming established "Democractic Republic of Vietnam", so Viet Minh's call for French to come back was illegal. Unfortunately we "commies" recognized Hu Zhi Ming and supported his government . We supported Vietnam upon the request of "Democratic Republic of Vietnam" government in VN war. That government was against colonist French rule. That was enough for Mao to do something.
2, I felt funny that as an American, you are so stubborn about treaties, did US ever walk in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afganistan according to treaties?
3, Blame Uncle Hu or anti-communist hardcore Americans not Chinese.

 

[ThaniOruvan]

Then why was Afzal Guru hanged, beef ban imposed in a majority muslim state, Hurriyat leaders arrested, Modi who killed muslims a PM? Before criticizing China fix India. China may be harsh on muslims but it is also harsh on all religious groups and treats all equally. There is no differential treatment for people. The Hui muslims particularly are extremely loyal to China.

In India a man like Tanda who did nothing is arrested and Babu Bajrangi given a job in intelligence

Why are you not replying to the Chinese poster whose comments are more inflammatory than the Indians' paper comments to which you are vigorously responding and finding faults. Are you a Chinese puppet ? Your logic applies only on India and Indians ?

 

[CHN Bamboo]

Dunno your definition of Heaven, but greater HDI certainly is not one of the parameters i guess.

http://megplanning.gov.in/MHDR/2.pdf

From the point of HDI majority of NE states happen to be better off than Tibet or Xinjiang for almost a decade early.

Here 2005 HDI values for NE states

Arunachal Pradesh : 0.617
Assam : 0.534
Manipur : 0.707
Meghalaya : 0.585
Mizoram : 0.790
Nagaland: 0.770
Sikkim : 0.684

With the exception of Assam every NE state has higher quality of life than a Tibetan in 2013

4 NE states : Manipur, Mizoram, Nagaland and Sikkim have has higher quality of life than a Xinjiang resident in 2013

Tibet HDI 2013 : 0.569

Xinjaing HDI 2013 : 0.667


While NE states in India have some highest quality of life compared to other Indian states

Urban Arunchal Pradesh highest HDI all over urban India at 0.877
Urban Mizoram 2nd highest HDI all over urban India at 0.872
Rural Nagaland 4th highest HDI all over rural India at 0.750


Xinjiang and Tibet are among the lowest HDI provinces of China for 2013.

List of administrative divisions of Greater China by Human Development Index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


First lies

Indo-China border trade through Nathula rises to Rs 16.04 crore - timesofindia-economictimes

Nathula pass lies in Gangtok, which is the capital of Sikkim an NE state.




Second lies

Can you show even a single Indian mainstream media article covering Tibet negatively?


Third Lies

No prohibition for Chinese tourists visiting NE.
Only special permit application is needed.

Now, only Pak & China nationals need special permits to visit NE - The Times of India

You seem only want to post HDI..(The last time I see you,you post HDI as evidence.)
Show the consumption and GDP plz,I do think it's more meaningful...
And show their car ownership per capita plz.
In addition,car prize in Tibet is high(because of inconvenience) and Tibetan r also poor compared to the other province,but also 10 persons a car.
I do think this statistic is much more higher than India.@Bussard Ramjet Can u tell me India's statistic?

**As for life,Tibetan live in plateau(3-5km high) so they can't live long.(Except South tibet,it isn't plateau and rich in resource.)

You may as well watch Hollywood movies because the Indian movies are a 100%copy of Hollywood movie less the actors and with shitty special effects

Can u help me?

 

[Place Of Space]

Unfortunately for you, I do have a lot of comparisons to go by. Probably more than you do.

For starter, I am not a white American. I am a Vietnamese-American who fled in 1975. By the way, the Vietnam War would not have happened if China had stayed out of Viet Nam after WW II. Further, not only am I a US citizen, I am also a USAF veteran who have been overseas, from Asia to Europe to the ME. I am older and more experienced than you do in many ways.

"By the way, the Vietnam War would not have happened if China had stayed out of Viet Nam after WW II. "

You mean China invited France, US and USSR into the Vietnam War? Heaven, even the Ho Chi Minh learned and joined in communist party in France in 1920's, he later went to Russia 1923-1924, in order to get support from USSR.

Don't forget one thing, the French didn't want to give indepdence to Vietnamese, so Ho Chi Minh and his company had to ask for another power's support to get indepedence. What independence means for Vietnamese? It means freedom, dignity, and decide its own fate. ( You know it's france surrendered to japan, suffered the horrible famine disaster, Vietnamese even had no rights of representing and voiced for their own country/people. )

 

[gambit]

1, Not really. French surrendered to the Japanese.

France was defeated in Europe, so what else can a colonial government do but to surrender to the Japanese ? But this is nothing more than a feeble attempt at distraction.

In 1945 after Japan's defeat Hu zhi ming established "Democractic Republic of Vietnam",...

Ho had no authority to do so. He was not representative of the Viets.

...so Viet Minh's call for French to come back was illegal.

Legality had nothing to do with it since Ho was not authorized by anyone, least of all by the Vietnamese people, to make any treaty. But you should really stay out of the Vietnam War discussion since you are wrong about this fact.

Ho–Sainteny agreement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ho Chi Minh was the leader of the Viet Minh.

Invoking legality was a hilarious attempt to salvage face for you since it is clear you did not know of the Ho-Sainteny Agreement.

In sum, the cause of the Vietnam War came from two sources: China and France.

Unfortunately we "commies" recognized Hu Zhi Ming and supported his government . We supported Vietnam upon the request of "Democratic Republic of Vietnam" government in VN war.

China had no obligations to do so.

That government was against colonist French rule. That was enough for Mao to do something.

So was the US and the US was fully behind the idea of booting France out of Indochina. Chiang Kai-shek agreed. And there was no way Mao was ignorant of this consensus since Mao had allies inside the Nationalists. In sum, Mao knew what the US would do to Indochina -- UN trusteeship towards independence.

2, I felt funny that as an American, you are so stubborn about treaties, did US ever walk in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afganistan according to treaties?

I brought up treaties only as a question as to why China meddled in Viet Nam. If you feel that ideological alignment should be and must be enough for countries to get involved in the affairs of other countries -- say so.

3, Blame Uncle Hu or anti-communist hardcore Americans not Chinese.

Again...Ho and the Viet Minh had nothing to hold over China's head. If you are wiling to blame US for Iraq's current mess, then in the same logic, we can blame China for the Vietnam War.

 

[Bussard Ramjet]

Of course it does matter. It was the US who wanted a free Indochina.


That was well after the war started and many events passed. I am talking about immediately post WW II. Can you handle that ?


Obviously -- not enough.


Invaded Viet Nam for what ? Oil ? Territorial expansion ? Women ?

And you claimed to have read about the Vietnam War ?


Even your fellow Chinese in this forum had to cringe at your level of ignorance in that post.

US didn't want a free Indo China, or they would have let Vietnam be.

US after the world war, only favored freedom as long as it suited their interests. Or else they quickly deposed rulers, like in Iran, Congo, Cuba etc.

US invaded Vietnam for one of the most important currencies: Geostrategic Objective. They didn't want Communism to spread, and wanted a foothold in that area.

 

[gambit]

"By the way, the Vietnam War would not have happened if China had stayed out of Viet Nam after WW II. "

You mean China invited France, US and USSR into the Vietnam War? Heaven, even the Ho Chi Minh learned and joined in communist party in France in 1920's, he later went to Russia 1923-1924, in order to get support from USSR.

Don't forget one thing, the French didn't want to give indepdence to Vietnamese, so Ho Chi Minh and his company had to ask for another power's support to get indepedence. What independence means for Vietnamese? It means freedom, dignity, and decide its own fate. ( You know it's france surrendered to japan, suffered the horrible famine disaster, Vietnamese even had no rights of representing and voiced for their own country/people. )

Pleas see above.

 

[Bussard Ramjet]

France was defeated in Europe, so what else can a colonial government do but to surrender to the Japanese ? But this is nothing more than a feeble attempt at distraction.


Ho had no authority to do so. He was not representative of the Viets.


Legality had nothing to do with it since Ho was not authorized by anyone, least of all by the Vietnamese people, to make any treaty. But you should really stay out of the Vietnam War discussion since you are wrong about this fact.

Ho–Sainteny agreement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ho Chi Minh was the leader of the Viet Minh.

Invoking legality was a hilarious attempt to salvage face for you since it is clear you did not know of the Ho-Sainteny Agreement.

In sum, the cause of the Vietnam War came from two sources: China and France.


China had no obligations to do so.


So was the US and the US was fully behind the idea of booting France out of Indochina. Chiang Kai-shek agreed. And there was no way Mao was ignorant of this consensus since Mao had allies inside the Nationalists. In sum, Mao knew what the US would do to Indochina -- UN trusteeship towards independence.


I brought up treaties only as a question as to why China meddled in Viet Nam. If you feel that ideological alignment should be and must be enough for countries to get involved in the affairs of other countries -- say so.


Again...Ho and the Viet Minh had nothing to hold over China's head. If you are wiling to blame US for Iraq's current mess, then in the same logic, we can blame China for the Vietnam War.

Ho had more authority than George Washington did when he established US.

I brought up treaties only as a question as to why China meddled in Viet Nam. If you feel that ideological alignment should be and must be enough for countries to get involved in the affairs of other countries -- say so.

US got involved in almost all countries and still does so.

 

[gambit]

US didn't want a free Indo China,...

I have historical proof otherwise. You ?

US invaded Vietnam for one of the most important currencies: Geostrategic Objective. They didn't want Communism to spread, and wanted a foothold in that area.

There was no 'invasion'. The US was in Viet Nam, specifically South Viet Nam, by invitation.

And you dared to tell me you read up on the Vietnam War ?

 

[Bussard Ramjet]

I have historical proof otherwise. You ?


There was no 'invasion'. The US was in Viet Nam, specifically South Viet Nam, by invitation.

And you dared to tell me you read up on the Vietnam War ?

Invitation by your puppets.

In that way even Nazi Germany was invited by their friends in France.

 

[Kyle Sun]

In reality, China tracks and traces Uygurs all around the world, and gets back escaping Uygurs from SE Asia.

Totally reverse of what you are saying.



Wow!

You can never build a society if you ask others to be tortured based on difference in opinion.

The last time this happened on a Mass Scale was in Cultural Revolution, when Mao and Jiang Qing wreaked havoc on everyone.

It all began with the criticism of Mao's Great Leap Forward by Peng Dehuai, a person who was then tortured in house arrest.

i am okay with people who has different opinion which will not hurt innocent people.

but this fker loves those terrs who kill innocent people .he is not with us.
torture him to dead is tbe best way .

 

[Bussard Ramjet]

I have historical proof otherwise. You ?


There was no 'invasion'. The US was in Viet Nam, specifically South Viet Nam, by invitation.

And you dared to tell me you read up on the Vietnam War ?

You have written no proof.

The mere mention that Roosevelt "wanted" a free Indo China, is no "proof."

The far more important proof is that one of their allies, which was heavily dependent on US, france, never stopped their colonialism; and when thrown out, were joined by US to buttress them.

i am okay with people who has different opinion which will not hurt innocent people.

but this fker loves those terrs who kill innocent people .he is not with us.
torture him to dead is tbe best way .

How do you know he "loves" terrorists?

The only thing mentioned is that he disagreed with some Central Government policies which in itself is very broad.

 

[gambit]

Invitation by your puppets.

In that way even Nazi Germany was invited by their friends in France.

Terrible analogy. Nazi Germany had different goals for Europe, not just France. By the way, Lee Kwan Yew in his memoir, 'From Third World To First', admitted that all the Asian countries were glad the US got involved in Viet Nam. It gave the Soviet Union and China pause as to the rest of Asia. Who, back in WW II, did the same for Nazi Germany ?

 

[Place Of Space]

Pleas see above.

You have to transfer the American fault, even crime into Vietnamese themselves? Why you are so not human!!!
America stayed in the phucking away America continent, Vietnam War would have much less chances happening.