A secular state is a religious imperative

[Enigma_]

Religion plays a big role in both UK and US.

With the Queen coronation ceremony held over alleged Seat of David and US President swearing over the Bible..... you can forget about secularism.

Pakistan is as secular as them its just people have an itch when it comes to Islam....

does not get simpler than this.

Secularism does not mean there's no religion at all. The US and UK are both born from Christian Majority states. However the US these days definitely ain't secular, they're an extremist christian cult. The UK is in the abyss of their own stupidity and so therefore I don't think it really matters what they are at this point.

Anyways, Pakistan isn't like them at all. There's systematic discrimination and societal discrimination all across the country. Besides, Pakistan becoming secular isn't necessarily because of the West. Why does everything have to be a comparison to them? Why can't we take the initiative ourselves and do something bold for once? The biggest competition is one's own self. A country should not follow others or pull them down but instead test its own boundaries. We claim to be independent yet we still follow them as if they are our masters.

 

[El Sidd]

Secularism does not mean there's no religion at all. The US and UK are both born from Christian Majority states. However the US these days definitely ain't secular, they're an extremist christian cult. The UK is in the abyss of their own stupidity and so therefore I don't think it really matters what they are at this point.

Anyways, Pakistan isn't like them at all. There's systematic discrimination and societal discrimination all across the country. Besides, Pakistan becoming secular isn't necessarily because of the West. Why does everything have to be a comparison to them? Why can't we take the initiative ourselves and do something bold for once? The biggest competition is one's own self. A country should not follow others or pull them down but instead test its own boundaries. We claim to be independent yet we still follow them as if they are our masters.

the constitution of both the mentioned countries are heavily influenced by religion. you cannot call them secular based on that fact.

Pakistan's constitution of 1973 is a highly revered book. You should study that before coming to conclusions.

and society's problem wont go away by changing mere words on a piece of paper. its illogical to suggest otherwise and thus why i do not take such demands seriously.

 

[Enigma_]

Pakistan's constitution of 1973 is a highly revered book. You should study that before coming to conclusions.

I will read in due time.

and society's problem wont go away by changing mere words on a piece of paper. its illogical to suggest otherwise and thus why i do not take such demands seriously.

Okay then how does a society change exactly? Education? Considering religion is compulsory in public schools of Pakistan I doubt this would ever change our society's mindset. Which will lead to our own destruction, our enemies don't even have to lift a finger.

the constitution of both the mentioned countries are heavily influenced by religion. you cannot call them secular based on that fact.

That's not how secularism works. If Pakistan today became secular and was still heavily influenced by Islam would it not be secular? This is nothing but whataboutism.

 

[gayMo]

UK and USA are epitome of secularism and Democracy how many Muslims hindu and Sikh head of states they had in past? having a leader from minority isnt barometer of religious freedom but having a diet of your choice is

That's a good example. But they don't have 25% minorities so their pool is too small.
I am very against the anti beef laws implemented in India.

 

[El Sidd]

Okay then how does a society change exactly? Education? Considering religion is compulsory in public school of Pakistan I doubt this would ever change our society's mindset. Which will lead to our own destruction, our enemies don't even have to lift a finger.

the society has problems due to its tribal nature not due to some religion. religion is basically used to legitimize the ethno fascists creed and conservative practices. the state however does not own it.

the state has the decency to respect its citizens personal choice. you can be drunk as hell having orgies in your privacy the state does not come into action unless someone reports it for unwanted noise or under good samaritan law.

the state allows you to marry, divorce, reproduce and educate your kin to the best of your own intellect. the state does not even fucking force inheritance laws on its citizens like they do in other countries.

its all behas mubahisa to keep people divided and those who actually understand the matter really do ignore this.

 

[Enigma_]

the society has problems due to its tribal nature not due to some religion. religion is basically used to legitimize the ethno fascists creed and conservative practices. the state however does not own it.

the state has the decency to respect its citizens personal choice. you can be drunk as hell having orgies in your privacy the state does not come into action unless someone reports it for unwanted noise or under good samaritan law.

the state allows you to marry, divorce, reproduce and educate your kin to the best of your own intellect. the state does not even fucking force inheritance laws on its citizens like they do in other countries.

its all behas mubahisa to keep people divided and those who actually understand the matter really do ignore this.

Right but these ethno fascists creed and conservatives are the ones that hold power. So who is to blame here, is it not the government itself and the idiots that keep on voting for these kaminays?

 

[El Sidd]

That's not how secularism works. If Pakistan today became secular and was still heavily influenced by Islam would it not be secular? This is nothing but whataboutism.

it will not be secular because secularism in its definition states complete separation of the church and the state. you cannot get that.

Right but these ethno fascists creed and conservatives are the ones that hold power. So who is to blame here, is it not the government itself and the idiots that keep on voting for these kaminays?

its an evolutionary process. takes time. no shortcuts in life

 

[Enigma_]

it will not be secular because secularism in its definition states complete separation of the church and the state. you cannot get that.

Lies. Nothing but excuses and we don't even try to accomplish it. Sitting on our a*ses because it is convenient for us the way it is. By the way Secularism actually states the principle of separation of state and religion. Not absolute.

its an evolutionary process. takes time. no shortcuts in life

That I agree with. But it seems a little too slow with Pakistan and we're running out of time.

 

[El Sidd]

Lies. Nothing but excuses and we don't even try to accomplish it. Sitting on our a*ses because it is convenient for us the way it is. By the way Secularism actually states the principle of separation of state and religion. Not absolute.


That I agree with. But it seems a little too slow with Pakistan and we're running out of time.

Time is not for humans to control or judge.

as for secularism and state is concerned. you cannot force your opinion on others. we have people who want to live in a certain way and we have others who want to do it otherwise. there is a parliament. they can come and talk and discuss and formulate. but no law is going to be made which is repulsive to Quranic guidance and Jinnah knew that as well.

 

[Enigma_]

as for secularism and state is concerned. you cannot force your opinion on others. we have people who want to live in a certain way and we have others who want to do it otherwise. there is a parliament. they can come and talk and discuss and formulate. but no law is going to be made which is repulsive to Quranic guidance and Jinnah knew that as well.

So we come down to the point where it always comes down to. If people actually followed Jinnah and what he wanted, remembering that he was an astute statesman that understood the idea of nationhood, we would indeed be a secular society today. Was the father of this nation consulted or the others that were alive back then asked if they ever wanted Pakistan to go down this route? No. How is that we can betray our own founding father's vision and then claim to have any sense of decency? Jinnah was a muslim, but it was between him and Allah, not between him and the people of Pakistan nor its government. Anyways this will spiral on to a big discussion but as always we hit the bedrock of all secularism discussion.

 

[war&peace]

This topic has been discussed to death multiple times before so it is nothing but waste of time

 

[El Sidd]

So we come down to the point where it always comes down to. If people actually followed Jinnah and what he wanted, remembering that he was an astute statesman that understood the idea of nationhood, we would indeed be a secular society today. Was the father of this nation consulted or the others that were alive back then asked if they ever wanted Pakistan to go down this route? No. How is that we can betray our own founding father's vision and then claim to have any sense of decency? Jinnah was a muslim, but it was between him and Allah, not between him and the people of Pakistan nor its government. Anyways this will spiral on to a big discussion but as always we hit the bedrock of all secularism discussion.

What was Jinnah's idea of nationhood? Inspired by Allama Iqbal? or was it inspired by something else?

Either you take Jinnah as a visionary practitioner of Allama Iqbal's vision or you take him an opportunist lawyer who rode on a populist movement.

make a decision stick with it and own it.

as i said we live in a country where article of clothing is considered to represent religious vs secular debate. so spare me the idealists view of how the state works.

Jinnah was given a state funeral with Muslim tradition and customs long before Islam was legally accepted as the religion of the state.

well do not worry. Allama Iqbal has been erased and pushed out of the limelight. it will take another couple of decades before people simply forget him and then you can ride in on your white noble horse and make Paksitan a secular pearl it was meant to be for you.

 

[SecularNationalist]

hope one day a Sikh can become the Pakistani pm like in India and a Hindu preside over SaudiA

That actually happened during jinnahs lifetime when pakistan came into being.Many ministers were non muslims.
Well saudis are almost impossible to become secular and even if they become secular a hindu has almost zero chances of becoming a president.

 

[Enigma_]

What was Jinnah's idea of nationhood? Inspired by Allama Iqbal? or was it inspired by something else?

Either you take Jinnah as a visionary practitioner of Allama Iqbal's vision or you take him an opportunist lawyer who rode on a populist movement.

make a decision stick with it and own it.

as i said we live in a country where article of clothing is considered to represent religious vs secular debate. so spare me the idealists view of how the state works.

Jinnah was given a state funeral with Muslim tradition and customs long before Islam was legally accepted as the religion of the state.

well do not worry. Allama Iqbal has been erased and pushed out of the limelight. it will take another couple of decades before people simply forget him and then you can ride in on your white noble horse and make Paksitan a secular pearl it was meant to be for you.

This isn't about me but Pakistanis. It was never about me.

 

[El Sidd]

This isn't about me but Pakistanis. It was never about me.

Pakistanis are happy under whatever left is of the 1973 constitution. Some prefer the original document for e.g. ME and some are happy with all the ammendments..all 18 of them.

its a diverse bunch....