A question From History of Pak Armed Forces.

[karan.1970]

Yea, no mention of going to third umpire for the Tashkent agreement.

Sure.. doesnt matter which umpire did the ruling as long as you win the match... but hey I thought we were just talking of the over ...

 

[Windjammer]

Sure.. doesnt matter which umpire did the ruling as long as you win the match... but hey I thought we were just talking of the over ...

Yes it was unfortunate that no body turned up for the so called victory celebrations in Lahore Gymkhana.

 

[AUz]

By every.single.account,

PAF shot down tens of more iaf aircraft than vice versa. PAF completely manhandled poor junk airforce of india with its pathetic gutless pilots.

International Aviation Magazines reported PAF's *** whooping to the iaf all over the world.

So mentioning PAF commanders leading the war at that time is only common sensical.

Here's to indians:

indians, we hold more than 1,000,000 sq. km territory (800,00+ sq km Pakistan alone) of your ancient beloved motherland. We ripped your country apart through our struggle and are still defiant to you in the most clear way.

If you can not do anything about it, then no problem. But please don't cry and show your inferiority complex.

The truth is: Islamic Civilization totally humiliated your ancient civilization, and ripped right through it...and during its last days, it destroyed your civilizations' honor and divided it within its own people!

You can do nothing against this fact, Mashallah.

So stop filling up cyber space to feel good. You got humiliated. You lost. You couldn't do anything against that. As simple as that.

 

[iffee100]

In my opinion all ranks low to high in Pakistan defense organization were/are patriotic Pakistani without doubt

 

[Pakistanisage]

MM Alam wasn't a commander.

From Air Force, it would be commanders leading the Pakistan's air power in 1965 war...and smashing indians left and right..

Air Marshall Nur Khan and Asghar Khan comes to mind.

PAF's chief, Musaf Ali Mir, was also one heck of a commander..

I agree....

 

[karan.1970]

Yes it was unfortunate that no body turned up for the so called victory celebrations in Lahore Gymkhana.

We left it for your victory day (of successfully defending your city in a war which you started to annex kashmir) celebration.

 

[Koovie]

For AF it has to be ACM Noor Khan and Asghar Khan

Despite what you call him, General Ayub lead the country in 1965 with pride. The war ended in a stalemate, exactly what we
wanted to achieve as Pakistan had no aims to expand unlike the aggressor.

What? How was India the aggressor in 1965? Pakistan launched the war by sending thousands of troops along the LoC with the intention to get Kashmir after believing that India would be a push over due to the political problems after Nehrus death and the debacle of 1962 against the PRC....... and I am sure that fighting in the suburbs of Lahore after the Indian counterattack was not what the Pakistani leadership wanted before the war started.

 

[Kompromat]

What? How was India the aggressor in 1965? Pakistan launched the war by sending thousands of troops along the LoC with the intention to get Kashmir after believing that India would be a push over due to the political problems after Nehrus death and the debacle of 1962 against the PRC....... and I am sure that fighting in the suburbs of Lahore after the Indian counterattack was not what the Pakistani leadership wanted before the war started.

Indians see the Op Gibraltar as the beginning of the 1965 war without taking into account the Shastri's annexation of Kashmir in 1964 which meant a declaration of war.

 

[Informant]

Oh boy thread down the shitters.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

I think guys yr missing this line in discussion.

Who has really performed greatly in Battles and later on became a commander.

@Rashid Mahmood @Windjammer @Pakistanisage @aernonaut @Oscar and other. Please keep this line in mind while discussing
in this thread. And please dont feed trolls.

BTW MM Alam was Air Commodore so he was a commander.

 

[Windjammer]

We left it for your victory day (of successfully defending your city in a war which you started to annex kashmir) celebration.

Errr... the first SOS call sign by the desperate Indian sector commander was, send a bottle of whiskey......let's just say, thirst was still there but not the appetite.

 

[SQ8]

Neither Ayub or Yahya were any worthy of being called commanders or leaders. Their dithering and short-sightedness along with loose morals for the latter left no stone unturned in taking bad decisions or none at all.

One senior tactical Air Force commander(or command) that deserves mention is that of 33 Tactical wing in 1971 at Masroor AB. It was this wings efforts in launching non-stop and composite strikes with whatever it had to stop the Indian Advance at Monabao which would otherwise have cut Pakistan into two and our womanizing leader Gen Yahya would have wet his pants.

The Navy has had some good commanders, in its early days but rarely so after that. Call it neglect if you will.

The Army has had some good commanders during peacetime, senior leadership of many Corps has performed well and its a long list. There are tactical commanders as well.

But if one was to really look at the overall best of what Pakistan has produced, then it has to be AVM Asghar Khan,The Air Force had far better leadership and Asghar Khan can be credited with being best senior leader the Pakistani military has every produced since it was his reorganization of the PAF that changed it into the high standard and well oiled force it still is today.and the reason is that his leadership did not just have its effects then, those effects and that of his immediate juniors and the team he trained and led STILL last today in the ethos and operational mindset of the PAF. That is the measure of leadership, when your actions have effects long after you have left the field.

 

[Rashid Mahmood]

How did he died? and in what circumstances.

BTW what abt Navy i think Rear Admiral Ahmad Tasnim is unmatched.

Well R/Adm Ahmed Tasnim is the only sub commander who sunk an indian ship (INS Kukri) in 1971.
, and later is became Commander Pakistan Fleet, after which he retired.

However, I would like to name an unknown officer who was the brain of the Pakistan Navy in the 60's/70's.

Captain Khan Hasan Zia. My father served with him for a long time and according to him, Capt Zia was the finest officer he had ever seen.

He was a Dartmouth trained officer and his achievements are:

1. He laid down the foundations of the PN Staff College.
2. He was brain behind the birth of Naval aviation.
3. He selected the two main platforms for the aviation i.e, Atlantic and the Sea King.
4. He advised the modification of the AM-39 Exocet modification on Atlantic aircraft and later the Sea King helicopters.
5. He revamped the PN Operations directorate after the 1971 war.

He was later retired in 1977 for criticizing the actions of an Admiral.

 

[Rajput_Pakistani]

Errr... the first SOS call sign by the desperate Indian sector commander....let's just say, thirst was still there but not the appetite.

@Windjammer

If you ask me, starting from 1962.
Ayub Khan was failure. He was a good manager but not a good soldier. His WW2 record was not satisfactory. In 1948 Kashmir war, he was one of those few officers who did'nt volunteer for action. In 1962 he failed to took advantage of the situation even though Pakistan has clear cut advantage in quality Armored, Airforce as well as a perfect situation one can wish for. In 1965 he again failed as a General while initiating OP Grand Slam. This time he took advices from Foreign Office a.k.a Z.A.Bhutto, where as any below average General would have said, What about Logistics?????

Then on 1st September, while PA was waiting for taking over Akhnoor, the greatest blunder in the history of Pakistan occurred. Here Ayub Khan as well as General Musa were to be blamed. Out of their internal likes /dislikes they changed General Akhter Malik and give command to General Yahya. We lost 36 precious hours and Indians were able to complete their deployments. Ask Indian historians they themselves call it an act of God which saved their day. Has there been capture of Akhnoor, Kashmir was lost for India and there will also be no attack on 6th september by India, as that would have lost all its objectives.

Then Yahya Khan, just one word for him .. Pathetic.

General Zia was also not a brilliant general, his political ambitions and how he imposed fundamentalist and likes of MQM, Sindhi nationalism upon Pakistan, are crimes to say the least. But OTOH, how he planned and execute against Soviets, keep Americans busy while covertly completing Pakistan nuclear program. The way how he mastermind the Khalistan movement. Unfortunately we were unable to eat fruits of any of these efforts and these were eventually lost by subsequent leadership. (Benazir give away the list of Sikhs separatist to Rajiv and again save the day for India)

General Musharraf was a professional soldier. His Kargil plan was brilliant (just like Siachin for India) but unfortunately our political-military difference failed that plan. His failure was to go ahead with his plan without calculating the political fall out of that decision.

I personally dont like General Kayyani. He was a PPPP person. One of the guarantor of NAB ordinance. I may be wrong but i feel that he did not defended his institution well. PA took every kind of shit in his tenure. We suffered heavily in WoT. He showed too much flexibility on issues like Lal Mosque trial, missing person's issue, criticism by media and liberal fascist. OBL episode, Mehran base attack are few of his failure. His successes Op Rah-e-Raast/ Nijaat.

Our history is just like our cricket team. We on all occasions lost when we were looking good. Our half hearted approach/ personal grudges, hidden hands and so on. We as a nation need to learn so much from our history.

 

[Erhabi]

Maj Gen Tajamul Hussain Malik..1971 war hero