A pseudo-Ottoman policy: Turkey’s new station in the world

[U-571]

but one thing i disagree with the ottoman system is the dictor system, islam and our prophet never preaches to have a dictator system, it preaches the system which we had in the early years after prophet's pbuh death, i-e righteous caliph system, a democracy type system where the person doesnt inherit its father's grand fathers throne, but is chosen by a shura or a parliment..

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

i dont understand if we can have change in government in iran, where people were forced to revolt against the great satan, and now in turkey, they dont combine with jews well now a days, and now the turks are move into a revolution sort of thing to remove their kemalist image, why in pakistan we dont have these revolutions, to kill/thow out these zamindars and jagirdars, and to impose a democratic islamic system??, and so that our country also propers in the right directions??

^^ btw it was such a nice video to share muhammad bin qasim

We shall get there too... very soon God willing... The current nonsense in our country cannot continue for long... It is simply unnatural and against the order of any human society what is happening to our dear Pakistan...

 

[Patriot]

Kemalism transformed Turkey into one of the finest modern states.Not sure why that is bad?I do agree there were some things about Kamalism which were not right
(like banning scarf - Freedom Of Religion should never be barred).The era of Rashideen is long gone and cannot repeat itself as the people of those era were very much better.I am talking about common person.Please don't think that a common Pakistan is any better then it's leader.We are all corrupted.

 

[Jigs]

Founder of Any Nation including mine are not big enough to "Rashdin" let alone founder of our faith.

Nevertheless, i agree to disagree with you.

They conform equally to me. We can agree to disagree.

 

[Saleem]

you need to differentiate between state and nation.....

 

[Saithan]

Right, I only saw a minute or two of that video before i stopped it. I have to agree with Jigs that it was disgusting, seeing how people reacted to the "politics" and words. I would consider that to be the first step on the path to becoming a fanatic.

I hope that all mulla, imam and whatever else you may call them, who is like the guy on the video dies without causing more fanatism, but like I said I only saw a couple of minutes of the video. I found his beard disgusting to look upon. His face didn't have any Nur on it. His "kavuk" was very big, maybe it matches the size of his head.

Erbakan made politic on religion, which I truly believe was messed up. And his party got what they deserved. He's back in politics again, but I hope he'll die without trying to cause any disturbance because he is an opportunitist who'll suck votes to his party based on religious rallying and nothing else. You should see him now, bloated fat, unable to move around on his own.

Turkey should hold on to secularism values but with few changes. Especially the part involving education should not be restricted because of headscarves. I hope that Turkey will have higher educational level because i think that's the way to avoid illitiracy which will lead to being manipulated by people smarter thn you, or by religious speeches.

I guess what I am trying to say it, we don't need fanatics, or fiery speeches by imams to rally muslims in to a fanatic headlong run. We need education and smart people with a good heart to work for the people.
just my opinion.

 

[Jigs]

Right, I only saw a minute or two of that video before i stopped it. I have to agree with Jigs that it was disgusting, seeing how people reacted to the "politics" and words. I would consider that to be the first step on the path to becoming a fanatic.

I hope that all mulla, imam and whatever else you may call them, who is like the guy on the video dies without causing more fanatism, but like I said I only saw a couple of minutes of the video. I found his beard disgusting to look upon. His face didn't have any Nur on it. His "kavuk" was very big, maybe it matches the size of his head.

Erbakan made politic on religion, which I truly believe was messed up. And his party got what they deserved. He's back in politics again, but I hope he'll die without trying to cause any disturbance because he is an opportunitist who'll suck votes to his party based on religious rallying and nothing else. You should see him now, bloated fat, unable to move around on his own.

Turkey should hold on to secularism values but with few changes. Especially the part involving education should not be restricted because of headscarves. I hope that Turkey will have higher educational level because i think that's the way to avoid illitiracy which will lead to being manipulated by people smarter thn you, or by religious speeches.

I guess what I am trying to say it, we don't need fanatics, or fiery speeches by imams to rally muslims in to a fanatic headlong run. We need education and smart people with a good heart to work for the people.
just my opinion.

I was not aware he came back to politics. Didn't the courts ban him from political life ? Regardless i couldn't stand the guy (imam) he is getting all those people pumped up through using Islam to produce a political talking point. It is best to jail these people fast. Might not be democratic but is is better for the people in the long run. Turkey is not like America where they can afford to have crazies running around in the name of democracy. We are not as stable as them. I feel soon enough AKP will start crossing lines where a vast number of people become uncomfortable and will result in their demise. Already most of the Turkish press is against the ruling party. Others will follow.

 

[Saithan]

It's not like we're spitting on the ottomans (maybe some do), but they did fail in the end. And they failed in a horrible way with the sevres contract.

"Roomi" or "Rumi" or "Mevlana" if you're refering to the great mullah who's message was love then yes. I know of him and I like his advices and poetry. They're an ideal to uphold, yet someday some people will use it for their own advantage (nature of man greedy and selfish). If you should ever go to Konya visit Mevlana. If I am not wrong I believe one of his parents are buried in the province of Karaman.

 

[Jigs]

Praise be to God.

Secularism has made Turkey such a weak state that a petty country like Israel can murder Turkish aid workers and get away with it without paying back for it in Israeli blood.

Had the Ottomans been in power today... We would have seen Turkish F16s attacking the north of Israel as revenge.

Are you 12 years old ? We are going to go to war with a nation that has a policy to use nuclear weapons if substantial attacks happen on their soil and you want us to attack them ? Might i also add their Air Force is both larger and more advanced then ours is. Oh and that they hold a very advanced SAM network over their country. None of which we have.

Your a perfect example of what Turkey shouldn't become. Keep living in your delusional little past. Turkey has very few enemies because we use diplomacy to solve our problems. I can not say the same for most of the other countries in the region.

 

[Rafi]

Well said Jigs.

 

[muse]

We are reading from the "usual suspects" that our noble brother, of whom we are both proud of and for, Turkiye, is made weak by following policies which do not mean Faith in God, by using religion as a tool of politics and governance - These "usual suspects" are plain wrong.

But Pakistanis can learn from the wisdom at work in Turkiye:


Lessons from Turkey
Usman Mujib Shami




Think of a country marked with a history of frequent military interventions, political instability, human rights violations, and fierce standoffs between its right and left wings; a place where thousands have lost their lives to the quarrels triggered by the religious, ideological, and ethnic differences. Reading these lines, you might be thinking of Pakistan. However, it would be surprising for many people to know that these words describe the history of the Republic of Turkey as adequately as they highlight Pakistan’s past. It is amazing how similar is the (recent) history shared by the two countries, but more astonishing is the fact that Turkey has been able to break itself free from its gloomy past and turned into what can be safely referred to as today’s economic giant.

A recent visit to the country that took place as a result of Rumi Forum’s invitation revealed the aspects of Turkey’s economic and social development that are more than enough to baffle any visitor from a country like Pakistan. Rumi Forum is a Turkish organisation working in Pakistan under the Gulen Movement, a movement known by the name of one of the most influential religious scholars of Turkey — Fethullah Gulen. An initiative that primarily started in the 1960s with establishing dormitories for Turkish students with conservative backgrounds has today turned into a colossal movement providing services in the fields of education and health, and promoting dialogue and inter-faith harmony through media and dialogue forums. These numerous organisation in various fields are knitted together primarily by one simple vision — eradication of poverty and ignorance, and peaceful coexistence between the different sects of society, i.e. promoting tolerance. The impact of the organisation’s efforts on Turkish society is enormous and beyond comprehension.

Coming back to Turkey, visiting the place puts one in an ambivalent state. On the one hand is the joy of witnessing one of the most successful Muslim countries, particularly in light of its economy. On the other is the depression caused by the realisation of the precious years wasted by our countrymen. Turkey’s development highlights the fact that achieving economic supremacy is no mission impossible (given that the intent is present). It is almost unbelievable that a country that was experiencing one of the worst economic crises of its history in 2002 has managed to achieve such a dramatic turnaround. Government’s nominal debt stock that stood at an alarming level of 74.4 percent of GDP has shown a persistent decrease, falling to around 45 percent by the end of 2009. Today’s Turkey is characterised by a GDP of more than $ 600 billion, which is amongst the top 20 in the world, and a growth rate of over 7 percent per annum, which also makes it one of the fastest recovering economies from the global financial crisis of 2007.

More impressive than the economic highlights of the country are the trust and belief exhibited by the common public in Turkey’s leadership. The Justice and Development Party (AKP), after ruling the land for five years from 2002 through 2007, managed to defend its majority in parliament during the 2007 elections; a clear indication of the success of its leadership that is still quite popular across the various segments of Turkish society.

The new face of Turkey, as many locals refer to it, is characterised by the supremacy of democracy. The recent referendum is believed to have blocked the path of military interventions for good. The 26-point referendum has led to amendments in the constitution that was promulgated by the military coup of 1980. A major amendment aims to abolish the article of the constitution that provides protection to coup leaders. Thus military leaders involved in such plans can now be tried in civilian courts.

The violent quarrels of the past have been replaced by a peaceful dialogue, in most aspects, in a society that still faces a vast ideological distance between the two schools of thought. The liberation of the social and economic structure has been achieved despite the forceful opposition of the judiciary and the military junta, making the accomplishment even more praiseworthy. The Deep State, the name given by pro-democracy Turks to the alliance of the judiciary and military, has gradually lost strength and authority at the hands of the wisdom and vision displayed by the political leadership, a quality rarely found amongst the leaders of our country.

Turkey, even today, faces some serious social challenges that mostly revolve around the issues pertaining to human rights violations, difference of opinion among various sects of society regarding sanctioning of head scarves in educational institutions, etc. It is no anomaly as it is impossible to name a country without any internal conflicts. However, the fact worth mentioning is the determination of the leadership and people for a peaceful solution to these problems. More importantly, these ideological differences have not been able to halt the process of economic liberation. Under the cover of the European Union regulations, Turkey, over the past decade, has vigorously followed a persistent economic line that is primarily characterised by export-oriented industrialisation and increased role of the private sector with a certain degree of regulation. The success of these policies is evident from the fact that its exports, which were a mere $ 36 billion in 2002, rose to a level of $ 102 billion in 2009; the export target for 2013 is set at $ 200 billion.

The development model pursued by Turkey has several important implications for a country like Pakistan. It is a pragmatic demonstration of the fact that economic development can take place despite the presence of domestic conflicts. Leaders are defined by their quality to deliver and overcome the obstacles faced in the path of development. Whining over the problems encountered is not a characteristic of effective leaders. It would be unfortunate if our political elite fail to learn a few lessons from Turkey’s political and economic progress — a country that possesses a very similar recent political history pattern but, so far, a very different future outlook.

The writer is a graduate of Institute of Business Administration, Karachi. He can be reached at usmanshami@yahoo.com

 

[Babur Han]

Turkey unlike what many of the posters think of it is a slave country which has forced hundreds of its poor into labour to serve alcohol for the rich tourists from the west coming to visit the country to watch the beautiful landmarks that were made by the Ottomans and make fun of the glory that the people of Turkey used to have in the past...

The only reason if there has been progress in Turkey has been because those so called "secular" ideas like focus on science and technology, infrastructure etc are straight from the teachings of Islam itself... and despite its "advancement" it still lacks nukes and thus lets Israel gets away with butchering its innocent citizens... so much for Nationalism and ideals of Kemalism to keep their own people before everyone else... what a joke!!!

and if Turks cannot assure nuke deterrence support from Pakistan... then whats the use of diplomacy that our friend Jigs was talking about? Is diplomacy supposed to be for staying afraid of Israel only?

Turkey could have done a lot... they did next to nothing... shame on us all Muslims...

....................

Perhaps it would be fitting to quote our master Hazrat Muhammad saw here who stated (from translation) that a single drop of innocent Muslim blood is dearer to God than the entire Kaaba in Mecca... Today our priorities are such that an attack on Kaaba in Mecca would put the Muslim world in a frenzy, yet countless innocent Muslims have been killed and get killed and no one gives it a second thought...

There is no need for a Nuclear Detterence for Turkey, none of the Countries which seen as a Threat around Turkey have Nuclear Wepons. There is also no overmighty Country like India in our Neighborhood which can Threaten the Existence of Turkey. Our Conventional Forces are enough to Deal with Current Threats.

When we archive the Nuke Capabillity it will be also neccesary to create Second Strike Capabillity and Early Warning Systems, this will need huge finacial Resourcess. Turkey has also signed the NPT Treaty, Development of Nukes will be a brake of this Agreement and Turkey will be sancioned to Death !

When Turkey have Nuclaer Weapons, Greece, Armenia and Bulgaria could also seek Nuclear Detterence, a regional War in the Aegean/Cyprus Theatre or Caucasus could led in an nuclaer Exchange !

 

[Babur Han]

i think turkey has nuclear threat from iran and israel..

I don't see both of them as a nuclear Threat to Turkey, Iran will not use nuclear Weapons against Turkey because we are in NATO. We have close economic Relations with Iran and buying Gas from them, I see no real Chance of an War between Iran and Turkey. Turkey must also not fear a Nuclear Threat from Israel as long our Country does not follow an anti - western Pan - Islamic Policy.

 

[Rafi]

This is a good forum, don't get me wrong, but there are far to many indians, and kids here who can spout of garbage.

Turkey is doing alright, this messing about, whether the Ottomans would have done this or that, is irrelevant and a total waste of time.
Ottomans were great - they did some good things and some bad things. Ataturk was the need of the day, he took a defeated nation and made it great again. He and the Quaid M.A. Jinnah are two of a kind.

I'm proud that members of my family, and my nation helped our Turkish brothers, in their hour of need in the War of Independence, this has built bonds that exist to this day, and hopefully will last till the day of judgement.

 

[Jigs]

skywalker my dear...

Anti Western Pan Islamic unity is bound to happen when Germans start thinking of Muslims as inferior...

Wake up o dear Turks... regain the glory that has been taken away from you... Become leaders to Muslims again!!!

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/13/world/europe/13sarrazin.html?_r=1

We are the most developed Muslim nation in the world. You go gain your glory we have ours.