Kudos. This is what I always like to say...I rarely meet any South Asian who isn't secular in the sense you described. Be it Indian, Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Sri Lankan etc. At least the ones I choose to hang out with. I wouldn't hang out with a racist/rabid communal person for all the money in the world.
Great thing said. But then you made a complete U-turn in the next point itself.
That's being unduly pessimistic. India's Founding Fathers had the true vision of a secular state, that is why any call to add the word "Hindu" in the constitution was rejected.
The current ascent of Hindutva, and the poisoning of so many Indian's minds, while a sad chapter in the history of the 73-year old Secular Republic, might eventually pass. This is what us liberals hope for: we're praying for the day Narendra Modi dies of natural causes (which might be sooner than expected).
A person's identity is very important to them. South Asians can be simultaneously secular, and a very religious bunch. I hardly come across any South Asian who is not living his or her religion on a daily basis: in other words, the entire Subcontinent are a very Godfearing bunch.
It is the complete opposite with many Europeans, and even Americans. A Bible-basher in some fundamentalist church of Utah or Missouri might preach fervently from the pulpit, but ultimately God is just another revenue source for many of them, as we see with the Mormons and other wealthy church groups in the USA. Bringing up God in any argument is considered a faux pas in Western culture, whereas in South Asia, invoking God is the ultimate argument to settle all arguments.
I have met Arabs, Iranians, and many other people of Islamic nations who weren't religious in the sense South Asian Pakistanis would be. Many Maghrebis of Morocco & Tunisia, the Jordanians etc., enjoy alcohol like just Westerners do. Religion is not the centre of their lives like it is for S. Asians.
I agree that we have to recognize and respect these groupings as you put it.
Hey, hope you are well.
Let me first point out the obvious. You’ve recognised my arguments, although with reservations, but in your reply, you have very clearly contradicted yourself without realising it.
This need to justify arguments based on singular facts is one of the main reasons we get in a mess. Just because someone drinks or does not drink or does one thing and not another does not make them any less or more religious. And also, it does not make a basis for a conclusion. A discussion/argument has to stand one, either or all of the following tests, it has to be reasoned or logical or have facts. I would go into details but those three elements it seems would be essential.
Examples are given to support an argument, not to be the basis for an argument/discussion.
So knowing someone of having displayed a certain trait, characteristic, or preference does not mean that element is transferable to the entire group to which he/she belongs. This has to be supplemental to the main point, not be the point in itself.
Just because we are secular in nature, it would be criminal to ignore how our group dynamic works, and you do seem to recognise that fact, but ignore it in your conclusions. Therefore our individual secularism has no relevance to how a country should be or could be organised or constituted.
Failing to recognise that as a group we are more conservative and have a preference for greater recognition of our religious affiliation in the national make-up, this failure is the reason where India is at now, it does not matter what India’s founding fathers envisioned if it was completely ignorant of the reality in the country, then they were sorely mistaken.
Mistakes can be made, and are made on a regular basis, but that does not mean you remain suspended in ideals or a fixed point in time. It is better to learn and chart a new course, an inclusive course that allows the majority to feel at home, whilst looking after the interests of the minorities.
My aim is to recognise each aspect of what and who we are, and lay out a complete picture. The fact that we are as you say “God-fearing” and that religion plays an important part in most of our lives, needs to be reflected in our national politics and our national outlook, therefore in our ideals regarding the kind of nationhood we wish to create for ourselves.
Pakistanis started on this path long ago, while India was always on this path clandestinely, it is now openly on the same path as Pakistan, it started late and is trying to go too fast, hence all the mess, safest way to reach a destination is to take your time so you can make course corrections, but India is doing the polar opposite.
I won’t go into the Christian examples of West or America, I personally think anything people are involved in is mostly a business, including all religions in how they are practiced; it is the nature of things.
Just as we, across cultures, countries, and continents have come to the same conclusions that murder is wrong, rape is wrong, truth is higher than a lie, and marriage is the bedrock of a stable society and so many other examples. Most religions have come to largely similar conclusions in essentially providing a good message, with some variations and how the message is put across to the people. But, in practice, it is the human being that lives the religion in an organised manner, on a daily basis, hence the business element.
My religiosity is near zero, won’t go into details, but no one can know how each time I hear the Azan my soul awakens, in that very moment I feel alive, I feel myself at one with Allah, it is an indescribable feeling.
Similarly, it would be hard for me to fathom the emotional link a Hindu has to Bhajans or something else about Hinduism that hits his/her soul. Or a Christian and others in their moment of connection.
Therefore, it is the failure of this reality of individual vs. the collective, where many countries have gone wrong and India did go wrong, right now it is making a messy course correction. The society already has changed permanently, Modi or no Modi, Shah or no Shah, BJP or no BJP, RSS and other Hindutva organisations of different shade have set their roots and will not be gotten rid off without a bloodbath.
The best you can hope for is an inclusive Hinduness which creates space for other faiths, although I do not see it, but for sake of peace, I am desperately hoping.
I wanted to go into European aspects of secularism and nationhood etc but it is already a lot longer then I planned.
