A Freedom Struggle Is Not Terrorism

[Vinod2070]

He wasn't pointing out 'differences' - he sugar coated Hinduism while bashing the Abrahamic religions, which includes Islam. His was not just a 'general' comment, it was prejudice and a blatant display of arrogance. Trying to suggest that for 'Hindu's humanity is more important than any faith' is and extremely prejudiced and arrogant statement, and quite insulting.

Who gave him the powers to determine what is in the hearts and minds of those following the Abrahamic faith, and determine whether they value humanity or not?

Sorry, but that isn't just a 'general statement', and this kind of bigotry will not be tolerated.

AM, it is entirely up to you how you want to take that post or any post for that matter.

I would suggest that you have a re look at that post with a little cooler mind. You may not agree with his comments (and that is only to be expected) but they are really not offensive at all. At least not intended to be offensive on his part if you want to consider that.

In fact your comments are far more aggressive and one sided. And quite uncharacteristically of you at that.

Ditto here, but it is disingenuous of you to try and imply that any 'faith attacked you', when there wasn't any 'you' in the periods you refer to, nor was the attack of any 'faith'.

Now we obviously have different opinions on this issue. I believe India existed long before Islam came into being. It has been there since milliena, not as a single nation all the time but as a civilization. That is no different than Germany or France or many other modern nations if you look at it.

You don't agree to that for some reasons and neither of us has had an iota of success in making the other see his point. I don't think that is changing any time soon. But let's keep up the good work to try and convince the other.

Well it may not have been the faith, but the faith did play its part. I say what I say based on the actions of the people concerned.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

AM, it is entirely up to you how you want to take that post or any post for that matter.

I would suggest that you have a re look at that post with a little cooler mind. You may not agree with his comments (and that is only to be expected) but they are really not offensive at all. At least not intended to be offensive on his part if you want to consider that.

In fact your comments are far more aggressive and one sided. And quite uncharacteristically of you at that.

There is no other way to look at a statement like 'for Hindus humanity is more important' - it directly implies that for those of the Abrahamic faith humanity is not important, or is less important.
He is not merely speaking of faith;sm, he is directly insulting those who follow those faith's.

It is an ugly and denigrating statement for all those who follow the Abrahamic faith's, including me. It is not 'uncharacteristic' of any one to merely sit down and just accept abuse and ***** thrown at them as Logic has done.

Well it may not have been the faith, but the faith did play its part. I say what I say based on the actions of the people concerned.

Faith did not play its part, the individual's who may have chosen to interpret faith a particular way did. What the Taliban seek to do in the name of faith is not Islam - it is their interpretation of Islam, and they have twisted it to accomplish their ends.

Note how they tried to get around the edicts issues by a gathering of religious scholars condemning suicide bombings.

It has always been about politics and power, Hindu, Christian or Muslim.

 

[Vinod2070]

There is no other way to look at a statement like 'for Hindus humanity is more important' - it directly implies that for those of the Abrahamic faith humanity is not important, or is less important.
He is not merely speaking of faith;sm, he is directly insulting those who follow those faith's.

It is an ugly and denigrating statement for all those who follow the Abrahamic faith's, including me. It is not 'uncharacteristic' of any one to merely sit down and just accept abuse and ***** thrown at them as Logic has done.

Well, I see that statement in a different light.

All religions talk of bettering the lot of humanity without exception. So it is nobody's contention that the followers of any religion don't value humanity.

Its just the difference in emphasis between faith vs. humanity (not that I am suggesting that they are in conflict in any way).

I may feel that God loves every human equally irrespective of his faith and I can't see it any other way. Someone else just can't see that happening as per his belief system. That someone else may feel that every human has to adapt his belief system in order to be loved by God. He would dearly like the other person to adapt that belief system to escape God's wrath because that is what he believes will befall him unless he does that.

It would just be a statement of fact that they have a difference in emphasis.

Faith did not play its part, the individual's who may have chosen to interpret faith a particular way did. What the Taliban seek to do in the name of faith is not Islam - it is their interpretation of Islam, and they have twisted it to accomplish their ends.

Note how they tried to get around the edicts issues by a gathering of religious scholars condemning suicide bombings.

It has always been about politics and power, Hindu, Christian or Muslim.

I tend to agree with this and this would be my thinking too.

Except that too many people justify those actions (even the bad ones and its not my contention that no good came out of the Muslim rule in India) on grounds of religion.

If the overwhelming majority of people said that what Gaznavi did was wrong, there would be no question of associating his actions with the faith. I think you would agree that this is not the case. He is treated as a hero by too many people precisely for the reasons that make him such a villain for us. This is just a small example.

 

[Halaku Khan]

Hi folks - the original topic was about Freedom Struggles vs Terrorism (probably with the Kashmir conflict in mind). The following report from the Indian Express may be of interest.

With 74% turnout, no place for separatists in Gurez

Riyaz Wani
Posted online: November 18, 2008 at 0923

Far from the raucous political environment of the Valley, behind the mighty Himalayas, election day in Gurez passed with a methodical calm. While an undeclared curfew locked down the Kashmir Valley and the politics of boycott hung over the turnout in its other two constituencies at Bandipore and Sonawari, polling day in Gurez closed with 74 per cent of voters exercising their franchise, the highest in ten constituencies that went to polls in the state.

Close to the Line of Control, Gurez is home to 15,330 voters deciding the fate of six candidates. The NC’s Nazir Ahmad Khan, who won in 2002, now faces a challenge from the Congress’s Faqir Muhammad Khan followed by PDP’s Nazir Ahmad Bhat.

But what sets Gurez apart from the rest of the Valley is the absence of the azadi debate, even though locals are extremely conscious of their political affiliations. And what is more, the Army for them is a benign presence vital for their survival. “In winter, when snow cuts us off from the world, the Army takes over and becomes a major source of our livelihood,” says the numberdar of Niru, Sarwar Mir.

But Gurez’s real significance lies in its distance from the turbulence of Kashmir’s politics. Here, they like to keep it simple. “Our only demand from the contestants is to help solve our problems,” says Zainullah from Dawar. “We have urgent bread-and butter-issues. Our villages get little electricity and there is hardly any clean drinking water”.

However, while people espouse democracy as a remedy to their problems, the ground reality — from the rundown roads to the decrepit government school — is not so rosy.

And despite the ceasefire across the LoC, the fear of shells from across the nearby hills hasn’t abated. In fact, in 2006 a shell from Pakistan landed outside the school, killing two. “Truce has helped us a lot. Our wish is that it lasts,” says Sajad Hussain from Dawar. The Army, he says, now hires more porters to carry supplies to the mountain tops. “Peace opens a lifeline for us.”

 

[Logic note]

There is no other way to look at a statement like 'for Hindus humanity is more important' - it directly implies that for those of the Abrahamic faith humanity is not important, or is less important.
He is not merely speaking of faith;sm, he is directly insulting those who follow those faith's. .

dear Agno
I am not insulting any other view . I am just stating the fact .

For Christianity - only Christian will have the heaven . every non Christian will go to hell . there good deeds , there humanity doesn't matter .

For Islam - only Muslims will have the heaven . every non muslim will go to hell . there good deeds , there humanity doesn't matter .

While in Hinduism everyone , every Human have right to find peace by his deeds , his faith doesnt matter

These are facts and I dont see any reason ,why you got agitated ?

It is an ugly and denigrating statement for all those who follow the Abrahamic faith's, including me. It is not 'uncharacteristic' of any one to merely sit down and just accept abuse and ***** thrown at them as Logic has done.

Well for abrahamic faiths , goodness has been branded or defined in terms of faith . Humanity has been ignored .
if humanity had any importance then faith or conversion to a particular ideology had no meaning .

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

dear Agno
I am not insulting any other view . I am just stating the fact .

For Christianity - only Christian will have the heaven . every non Christian will go to hell . there good deeds , there humanity doesn't matter .

For Islam - only Muslims will have the heaven . every non muslim will go to hell . there good deeds , there humanity doesn't matter .

While in Hinduism everyone , every Human have right to find peace by his deeds , his faith doesnt matter

These are facts and I dont see any reason ,why you got agitated ?

Well for abrahamic faiths , goodness has been branded or defined in terms of faith . Humanity has been ignored .
if humanity had any importance then faith or conversion to a particular ideology had no meaning .

These are not 'facts' - these are your perverted attacks on someone else faith. This is your prejudice and bigotry shining through. Whether someone goes to 'heaven or hell', or proselytizes does not determine humanity, and if that is how you determine it, I pity the lack of humanity in you.

Humanity is about respecting and caring for your fellow man, it is about morals and ethics triumphing over greed and power. It us about caring in the face of adversity. That is my definition of humanity, and having lived amongst devout Christians, Jews and Muslims, I have seem as strong a commitment to humanity among many of them as I have in those claiming to be atheists or Hindus'.

So please, find some humanity for yourself, instead of that hate you bear and vilify other faith's with.

 

[Logic note]

Confused Religious Ethics

“If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed.”
Einstein.1

Not moral by dogma
Simply obeying rules, tradition and dogmatic answers to moral questions do not make a person moral. Morality requires choices, and the more that a person relies on a "text book of morality" or dogmatic pre-laid rules, the less they are acting as a moral person. Obeying rules because you think you should is not the same as making moral choices, therefore at best such people are morally neutral, amoral.

s there right and wrong "if Christianity is not true"
Firstly, most people do not assume that Christianity has to be true in order for morality to be meaningful. Buddhists, Muslims, Pagans, Atheists, etc, all have moral systems based on what they believe to be true. It is only the Christian that thinks that morality requires Christian theology. Secondly, a Muslim could, and very often does, say "If not for the Koran as inspired by Allah, we would have no morals". It's just the same as Christian assumption about morals. All people have various ways of justifying and arriving at their morals. If a Christian is too ignorant to imagine that other people also have morals, then they are lacking compassion, empathy and common-sense

 

[Logic note]

These are not 'facts' - these are your perverted attacks on someone else faith. This is your prejudice and bigotry shining through. Whether someone goes to 'heaven or hell', or proselytizes does not determine humanity, and if that is how you determine it, I pity the lack of humanity in you.

Humanity is about respecting and caring for your fellow man, it is about morals and ethics triumphing over greed and power. It us about caring in the face of adversity. That is my definition of humanity, and having lived amongst devout Christians, Jews and Muslims, I have seem as strong a commitment to humanity among many of them as I have in those claiming to be atheists or Hindus'.

So please, find some humanity for yourself, instead of that hate you bear and vilify other faith's with.

I am not talking about Muslims of Christians ( people who are born with these faith systems )
I am talking about the faith systems and their ideology . if someone dont follow it then its a different issue .

Tell me does Islam or Chrsitianity will accept that every human being irrespective of his faith will get heaven if he or she follows a ethically correct behaviour ?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I am not talking about Muslims of Christians ( people who are born with these faith systems )
I am talking about the faith systems and their ideology . if someone dont follow it then its a different issue .

Tell me does Islam or Chrsitianity will accept that every human being irrespective of his faith will get heaven if he or she follows a ethically correct behaviour ?

I think I just answered that question above - getting into 'heaven' is not my definition of 'caring for humanity', in fact I find such a suggestion quite ludicrous - 'let a child starve to death but hey, he/she is going to go to heaven so I care for humanity!'. What nonsense.

And it is not your determination to make whether someone is following their faith or not.

 

[DarkStar]

dear Agno
I am not insulting any other view . I am just stating the fact .

For Christianity - only Christian will have the heaven . every non Christian will go to hell . there good deeds , there humanity doesn't matter .

For Islam - only Muslims will have the heaven . every non muslim will go to hell . there good deeds , there humanity doesn't matter .

While in Hinduism everyone , every Human have right to find peace by his deeds , his faith doesnt matter

These are facts and I dont see any reason ,why you got agitated ?




Well for abrahamic faiths , goodness has been branded or defined in terms of faith . Humanity has been ignored .
if humanity had any importance then faith or conversion to a particular ideology had no meaning .

"Those who believe, and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve." (Qur'aan 2:62)

The Jewish faith (father of the Abrahmic faiths) also does not require anyone to believe in Judaism to attain salvation.

Your premise about the Abrahmic faiths is based upon lack of understanding and blinkered by prejudice.

Another verse of the Quran states that whoever does an atom of good, or bad, shall receive recompense for it.

On a different note, how does fear of being reincarnated as a dog or cat or even a mosquito figure in the dharma consiousness of HIndus, can you tell me?

 

[Logic note]

I think I just answered that question above - getting into 'heaven' is not my definition of 'caring for humanity', in fact I find such a suggestion quite ludicrous - 'let a child starve to death but hey, he/she is going to go to heaven so I care for humanity!'. What nonsense.

And it is not your determination to make whether someone is following their faith or not.

So , What I understand is that you belive in humanity , which is beyond the narrow definition of faith .
Good

but you haven't answered my question whether the abrahamic religions , says the same .

 

[Logic note]

"Those who believe, and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve." (Qur'aan 2:62)

The Jewish faith (father of the Abrahmic faiths) also does not require anyone to believe in Judaism to attain salvation.

Your premise about the Abrahmic faiths is based upon lack of understanding and blinkered by prejudice.

Another verse of the Quran states that whoever does an atom of good, or
bad, shall receive recompense for it.
/QUOTE]

As per Islam Non Muslims will go to hell

Who has prohibited the embellishment of Allah which He has brought forth for His servants and the good provisions? Say: These are for the believers in the life of this world, purely (theirs) on the resurrection day; thus do We make the communications clear for a people who know.
Qur'an 7:32

Lo! they who deny Our revelations and scorn them, for them the gates of heaven will nor be opened not will they enter the Garden until the camel goeth through the needle's eye. Thus do We requite the guilty.
Qur'an 7:40

On a different note, how does fear of being reincarnated as a dog or cat or even a mosquito figure in the dharma consiousness of HIndus, can you tell me?[

As I mentioned Myths are stories created for Masses

 

[DarkStar]

"Those who believe, and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve." (Qur'aan 2:62)

The Jewish faith (father of the Abrahmic faiths) also does not require anyone to believe in Judaism to attain salvation.

Your premise about the Abrahmic faiths is based upon lack of understanding and blinkered by prejudice.

Another verse of the Quran states that whoever does an atom of good, or
bad, shall receive recompense for it.
/QUOTE]

As per Islam Non Muslims will go to hell

Who has prohibited the embellishment of Allah which He has brought forth for His servants and the good provisions? Say: These are for the believers in the life of this world, purely (theirs) on the resurrection day; thus do We make the communications clear for a people who know.
Qur'an 7:32

Lo! they who deny Our revelations and scorn them, for them the gates of heaven will nor be opened not will they enter the Garden until the camel goeth through the needle's eye. Thus do We requite the guilty.
Qur'an 7:40




As I mentioned Myths are stories created for Masses

I do not want to make this a discussion on Islam, but let me say that the onus in the verse you quoted is willfull denial and scorn. That is not something that most non muslims do.

Most of them have a superficial understanding of Islam, so they are not infact 'actively' rejecting them.

The word rejection in the ARabic sense is not simple non adherence or denial, but it is a willfull rejection after the truth has become manifest upon someone. LIke the denial by Satan of the Abrahamic faiths, who willfully and knowingly rejected God's commandment due to arrogance and pride.

Please don't try to interpret our own Religion for us, we do have the ability to articulate our understanding of our own faith, as things taken out of context can be misinterpreted to tarnish our faith.

 

[Vinod2070]

Please don't try to interpret our own Religion for us, we do have the ability to articulate our understanding of our own faith.

If only one can practice what one preaches!

But then if wishes were horses!

On a different note, how does fear of being reincarnated as a dog or cat or even a mosquito figure in the dharma consiousness of HIndus, can you tell me?

The issue in the Ramleela that I pointed towards, was about AgniPariksha, where Devi Sita is told to prove her innocence and chastity by walking through fire, by Lord Ram.

Why was Bagwan Ganesh beheaded by his father? Because Bagwan Shiva thought that his son had slept with his wife, Devi Parvati. Was this punishment in accordance with HIndu laws? In the end, he had to resort to finding an Elephant's head in order to bring to life their dead son.

What was all this!

People who don't have "jarf" should not throw stones at others.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

If only one can practice what one preaches!

But then if wishes were horses!

I think its a little too late to be blaming Muslims for that - for years now some in the West and Indians have been vilifying Islam and distorting its interpretations.