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A fireside chat about industrial revolution

GeraltofRivia

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Recently I have a fireside chat with a good friend of mine about Industrial revolution, the role of productivity and cost advantage. We talked about how these basic economical factors underpins the human history over the last 500 years - the rise of Europe, then rise of US and fall of Europe and finally rise of China and fall of US. He has some interesting thoughts and I like to share.

First we discussed how China became so backward and economically collapsed in the recent history. The reason is not so much that China has gone backward in terms of its capability to produce but rather it was outcompeted by European nations through their cost advantage.

China has been a successful producer nation civilization in the world for over 2000 years, evidenced by the popularity of its main exporting products - silk and Proclain. The long success has made China unaware that things has changed dramatically in other part of the world around 1500s - the discovery of America by European nations, initially Spain and Portugal, later British and French. European nations like British managed to transformed itself into a major producer in textile, built on slavery plantation, gold and silver from central America and the vast fertile land in America,

Using the cotton produced from slavery plantation in New America, British has had unparalleled cost advantage against the traditional producer nations in textile. Despite being a low key everyday product, textile production and trade were critical part of economy for many nations in the world, supporting livelihood for mass population. After losing the Opium war, China was forced to open its market to British made textile products, which was obviously much cheaper than locally made textile. The consequence of importing textile in massive quantity had a catastrophic impact to China’s rural economy - many households used to make living by making and selling handcraft textile were driven into poverty. The sudden reduction in demand from low class had chain effect to other part of the economy and caused the overall economy to collapse. The same thing happened to other part of the world. Most part of the world has been colonized by European power, providing raw material and becoming their captive market.

The economic and human misery of China and the rest of the world, colonized or not, paved the way to Europe to achieve industrialization. Its historical impact can be seen to this day - they control the majority of the wealth in the world despite having a small population. Despite Europe’s road to industrialization was full of blood and suffering, my friend was of the view that European nations, particularly British, should be credited to for the accomplishment of taking humanity into industry age. This is because the upgrade from agricultural production to industrial production required such a vast amount of capital and rather unique condition that cannot be created by other nations or civilizations.

It was European’s lust for fortunate and ruthlessness to other races that generated sufficient imbalance and capital to provide the necessary condition that stimulated the first industrial revolution. These are critical characteristics underpining their actions. They annihilated the entire population of native American and turned America into a giant plantation - manned by slaves captured from Africa. These actions provided them the captial and cost advantage that dominated the traditional nations in the world. It is difficult to image that another civilization or race has the same characteristics to carry out the things European have done.

However, after the end of Second World War, the liberation of colonized country removed the cost advantage that European country has enjoyed over the last 200 years. Without the cheap raw material from conlonized countries and slavery, they could no longer compete fairly with new industrial power in US that was built on one thing - scale of economy. The once leading producer nation like British simply regressed over time into a hollow shell, as we can see today.

Fast forward to now, China, once fully industrialized, has regained its power as the most productive country in the global market by the very same formula that US dethrone Europe - scale of economy. US may fight on to keep its share in the niche high value added market but overall it will follow the same path like its predecessor British. It is nothing but a natural revolution of productivity in human society. There will be another country that becomes more productive than China at some point in the future and take its place as the leading industrial power, but it is the topic for another day.
 
Using the cotton produced from slavery plantation in New America, British has had unparalleled cost advantage against the traditional producer nations in textile. Despite being a low key everyday product, textile production and trade were critical part of economy for many nations in the world, supporting livelihood for mass population.

Wasn't it also because the variety of cotton we see used around the world today is actually a hybrid from a variety of cotton native to the Americas...so the British actually had a product advantage on top of a labor advantage.

Plus they had chemists creating chemical dyes (vs grinding vegetables/insects) that didn't fade or wash out of clothes.

 
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It's only about economics, it ignores the military part.

UK was powerful because was a island hard to attack.
USA is powerful because is a "island" protected by two oceans.

USA will not tolerate militarily a powerful China, it's a matter of time.
 
Wasn't it also because the variety of cotton we see used around the world today is actually a hybrid from a variety of cotton native to the Americas...so the British actually had a product advantage on top of a labor advantage.

Plus they had chemists creating chemical dyes (vs grinding vegetables/insects) that didn't fade or wash out of clothes.

That’s right, the Petit Gulf hybrid strain that was developed by Rush Hutt, which was originated from Mexico. Apparently it slid through the cotton gid for reseeding a lot easier than other strains and produces more cottons.
 
It's only about economics, it ignores the military part.

UK was powerful because was a island hard to attack.
USA is powerful because is a "island" protected by two oceans.

USA will not tolerate militarily a powerful China, it's a matter of time.
Military is built on the foundation of economics. UK has the most dominating military in the 19th century due to their economic power. In the same way, US has the most dominating military in 20th century.

This post is an attempt to explain how they managed to achieve the economical success and makes useful comparison to China. China’s returns to its place as the most productive nation has it inherent logic. Unfortunately it does not matter whether USA would like it or not, it is jus natural revolution of economics. In the Industrial Age that we are in, military power is just a product of industrial capability. The capability that produces car, cargo ships, airplanes can also produce warship, warplanes, missiles, and so on.
 
US is also an European country. US and UK have similiar race, similar culture. Of course the bigger one would eventually win. In the past, knowledge spread took time. Which could be as long as centuries. Besides geographical obstacle, cultural reason could sometimes be an obstacle for knowledge spread. China unfortunately had both of them. Which leads to China's century humiliation.

Now the knowledge of science and technologies has been globally spread. And new knowledge can be spread at light speed. The real competitors emerge. That's all. There is no such a rule that one empire falls, another one rises. If a country can not rise today, it will never rise. After all today's world doesn't have knowledge barrier anymore. Of course those voluntarily or involuntarily blocked countries are excepitons.
 
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The economic and human misery of China and the rest of the world, colonized or not, paved the way to Europe to achieve industrialization.

Not much to do with China. You and your friend completely missed out on the hundreds of years of the Islamic Golden Age whose transmission of Greek knowledge as well as native discoveries, research and development in various fields whether medicine or automated machinery actually provoked the later European Industrial Revolution.
 
Military is built on the foundation of economics. UK has the most dominating military in the 19th century due to their economic power. In the same way, US has the most dominating military in 20th century.

This post is an attempt to explain how they managed to achieve the economical success and makes useful comparison to China. China’s returns to its place as the most productive nation has it inherent logic. Unfortunately it does not matter whether USA would like it or not, it is jus natural revolution of economics. In the Industrial Age that we are in, military power is just a product of industrial capability. The capability that produces car, cargo ships, airplanes can also produce warship, warplanes, missiles, and so on.
I'd say the opposite, Economics is bult on the foundation of military. And military natural advantage is due to geophysical reasons.
Island in UK, a far continent in USA, protected by two oceans.

Economic domination of USA comes from the end of WWII, because USA was far from WWII battlefields.
 
That’s right, the Petit Gulf hybrid strain that was developed by Rush Hutt, which was originated from Mexico. Apparently it slid through the cotton gid for reseeding a lot easier than other strains and produces more cottons.

Also remember the UK mechanized the loom allowing 24hr/day fabric weaving...this simply outpaced human weavers elsewhere in the world....also it looks like these machines had limitless potential for the size of the cloth woven. This is simply something likely difficult for people to replicate by hand without connecting smaller pieces...leading to seams.

handvsmachine.png

hand woven on top vs power loom on bottom
Power looms also made perfectly straight/even/flat weaves which I'm sure was very very noticeable to a critical eye compared to a wavy weave done by hand. This likely led to their preference by clothesmakers and made imported hand done cloth considered second-rate.

Also I bet this was leveraged as a military advantage for the easy construction/replacement of sails on their ships.



Edit:
"With the development of power looms, an altogether harder and more closely woven cloth was made, which was able to bring more power to sails."



So they had the whole stack. The land, labor, best seeds, power looms, and permanent chemical color fabric dyes.

It is not shocking that they made a fortune through textiles.
 
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The reason is not so much that China has gone backward in terms of its capability to produce but rather it was outcompeted by European nations through their cost advantage.

Cost and quality advantages due to tech advances.

Without the cheap raw material from conlonized countries and slavery, they could no longer compete fairly with new industrial power in US that was built on one thing - scale of economy.

Well most of it is still simply cost. If you can run a bunch of machines in some country for a fraction of what it is in your own then you have a cost advantage. It's a lot cheaper for some company like Philips Electronics to outsource lightbulb production to Asia if they can make it cheaper there.

Plus you are unfortunately overlooking a more darker and sinister reason.

Lots of Western countries around 1970 were facing public relations issues with consumer goods manufacturing causing local water/land/air pollution. Basically the "why should we have our rivers polluted and our local resources irreversibly mined/drained so some kid in far away Argentina can wear a new pair of shiny shoes for 7 months which he is just going to throw away anyway". This didn't seem like a good tradeoff in the long term at all for consumer goods manufacturing as it came at an unsustainable environmental cost. Especially when a new generation of plastic in the late 1960's was determined to be the savior in manufacturing (previously it was mostly heavy and thick Bakelite) ...but it was a high chemical waste generator.
1967 foretelling how plastic was about to replace Bakelite as the manufacturing substance of choice.

I saw the switchover in the late 1970's to toys made out of modern lightweight hard and soft plastics. Before then if you dropped something it was likely to chip/crack or shatter like porcelain.


So the darker answer agreed upon was: "let's simply outsource manufacturing (especially plastics) to non-western countries and use up their local resources and pollute their land/water/air for that Argentinian kid's throwaway shoes."

Problem solved. Have Western companies outsource manufacturing to developing countries like China with their mostly unsuspecting and oblivious agrarian populations for as long as possible. Let them absorb the local negative impacts.

Here's a river you can now swim in again because the toxic manufacturing has been moved to a different country...likely in Asia.
Here's the New Balance shoe headquarters not far from the above river's edge
new-balance-headquarters-1.jpg


There will be another country that becomes more productive than China at some point in the future and take its place as the leading industrial power, but it is the topic for another day.

Simply when the Chinese people have the same 1970's type realization. Until then you'll happily be the primary manufacturer for the world's companies just like the US was after WW2...and get all the bad that goes with it along with the good.
 
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Cost and quality advantages due to tech advances.



Well most of it is still simply cost. If you can run a bunch of machines in some country for a fraction of what it is in your own then you have a cost advantage. It's a lot cheaper for some company like Philips Electronics to outsource lightbulb production to Asia if they can make it cheaper there.

Plus you are unfortunately overlooking a more darker and sinister reason.

Lots of Western countries around 1970 were facing public relations issues with consumer goods manufacturing causing local water/land/air pollution. Basically the "why should we have our rivers polluted and our local resources irreversibly mined/drained so some kid in far away Argentina can wear a new pair of shiny shoes for 7 months which he is just going to throw away anyway". This didn't seem like a good tradeoff in the long term at all for consumer goods manufacturing as it came at an unsustainable environmental cost. Especially when a new generation of plastic in the late 1960's was determined to be the savior in manufacturing (previously it was mostly Bakelite) ...but it was a high chemical waste generator.
1967 foretelling how plastic was about to replace Bakelite as the manufacturing substance of choice.

I saw the switchover in the late 1970's to toys made out of modern hard and soft plastics. Before then if you dropped something it was likely to chip or shatter like porcelain.


So the darker answer agreed upon was: "let's simply outsource manufacturing (especially plastics) to non-western countries and use up their local resources and pollute their land/water/air for that Argentinian kid's throwaway shoes."

Problem solved. Have Western companies outsource manufacturing to developing countries like China with their mostly unsuspecting and oblivious agrarian populations for as long as possible. Let them absorb the local negative impacts.

Here's a river you can now swim in again because the toxic manufacturing has been moved to a different country...likely in Asia.
Here's the New Balance shoe headquarters not far from the above river's edge
new-balance-headquarters-1.jpg




Simply when the Chinese people have the same 1970's type realization. Until then you'll happily be the primary manufacturer for the world's companies just like the US was after WW2...and get all the bad that goes with it along with the good.
China will never deindustrialize because certain countries took the easy way out - outsourcing - instead of the hard way that China is doing - reforming industrial processes to reduce waste.
 
China will never deindustrialize because certain countries took the easy way out - outsourcing - instead of the hard way that China is doing - reforming industrial processes to reduce waste.
Well when China spends all the money trying to figure out the best way to clean it all up the West will be taking notes.

BTW here are some 2016 reports (less than 25 years after heavy industrialization)...you really think things like this are easily reversible? Most of this from being the manufacturing dumping ground of the world.

Groundwater 80% polluted​

More than 80 percent of groundwater is not fit for human consumption, according to monitoring figures from at least one-third of China released Monday by the country's water authorities, who scrambled to deny that drinking water was unsafe.

In its most recent monthly report published Monday, and using data from January this year, China's Ministry of Water Resources said that of 2,103 monitored wells, water from 691, or 32.9 percent, was defined as Class IV water and that from 994 wells, or 47.3 percent, as Class V, which means that over 80 percent of the water is classified as not fit for human consumption.

China battles chronic soil pollution​


According to the latest figures from the Ministry of Environmental Protection and the Ministry of Land and Resources, about 16.1 percent of China's surveyed land is polluted by heavy metals such as cadmium, arsenic, lead and mercury.

In addition, 19.4 percent of surveyed arable land had levels of pollution higher than the national standard, according to Environmental Protection Minister Chen Jining. That means about 3.33 million hectares of arable land are not suitable for growing crops.

Heavy metal contamination is especially severe in central and southwestern areas, according to a 2014 report.

The pollution has tainted crops, leading to health hazards and fueling environmental concerns.

In Baiyin city in Northwest China's Gansu Province, the 38-kilometer-long Dongdagou River was once the biggest source of pollution on the upper reaches of the Yellow River, with tens of millions of tons of heavy metal waste pouring into the Yellow River each year.

A test by Peking University showed that the silt in Dongdagou River contained levels of cadmium 2,200 times the national standard, while mercury was 2,000 times higher.

"At first it was adults who were losing their teeth. Then it was children," said a resident. "Soon even goats that ate the grass near the river began to lose teeth."




But hey I'm sure you think it was well worth it so "some kid in Argentina can wear some shiny shoes for 6 months".

Remember China's people will be dealing with this legacy for future generations and I highly doubt they will be looking back saying it was worth it.

You think anybody today looks back at a place like Love Canal and says it was worth it??
Hooker Chemical contaminated the local groundwater...pretty much forever. I suppose you think there are no places like this in China.
 
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Well when China spends all the money trying to figure out the best way to clean it all up the West will be taking notes.

BTW here are some 2016 reports (less than 25 years after heavy industrialization)...you really think things like this are easily reversible? Most of this from being the manufacturing dumping ground of the world.

Groundwater 80% polluted​

More than 80 percent of groundwater is not fit for human consumption, according to monitoring figures from at least one-third of China released Monday by the country's water authorities, who scrambled to deny that drinking water was unsafe.

In its most recent monthly report published Monday, and using data from January this year, China's Ministry of Water Resources said that of 2,103 monitored wells, water from 691, or 32.9 percent, was defined as Class IV water and that from 994 wells, or 47.3 percent, as Class V, which means that over 80 percent of the water is classified as not fit for human consumption.

China battles chronic soil pollution​


According to the latest figures from the Ministry of Environmental Protection and the Ministry of Land and Resources, about 16.1 percent of China's surveyed land is polluted by heavy metals such as cadmium, arsenic, lead and mercury.

In addition, 19.4 percent of surveyed arable land had levels of pollution higher than the national standard, according to Environmental Protection Minister Chen Jining. That means about 3.33 million hectares of arable land are not suitable for growing crops.

Heavy metal contamination is especially severe in central and southwestern areas, according to a 2014 report.

The pollution has tainted crops, leading to health hazards and fueling environmental concerns.

In Baiyin city in Northwest China's Gansu Province, the 38-kilometer-long Dongdagou River was once the biggest source of pollution on the upper reaches of the Yellow River, with tens of millions of tons of heavy metal waste pouring into the Yellow River each year.

A test by Peking University showed that the silt in Dongdagou River contained levels of cadmium 2,200 times the national standard, while mercury was 2,000 times higher.

"At first it was adults who were losing their teeth. Then it was children," said a resident. "Soon even goats that ate the grass near the river began to lose teeth."




But hey I'm sure you think it was well worth it so "some kid in Argentina can wear some shiny shoes for 6 months".

Remember China's people will be dealing with this legacy for future generations and I highly doubt they will be looking back saying it was worth it.

You think anybody today looks back at a place like Love Canal and says it was worth it??
Hooker Chemical contaminated the local groundwater...pretty much forever. I suppose you think there are no places like this in China.
China has already reformed and is cleaning pollution up yet China's industrial dominance grows further and further.



Oil drilling, fracking and refining, industries that the US is extremely proud of having, are extremely polluting too. How come people in Texas, Oklahoma and Louisiana love oil though?
 
Oil drilling, fracking and refining, industries that the US is extremely proud of having, are extremely polluting too. How come people in Texas, Oklahoma and Louisiana love oil though?

I'm quite sure the people of those states know about the dangers of those oil wells. You aren't hearing stories about people's teeth suddenly falling out from them like the above mentioned hidden pollution problems in China or unexplained chemicals gurgling to the surface and giving kids cancer like Love Canal.
 
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I'm quite sure the people of those states know about the dangers of those oil wells. You aren't hearing stories about people's teeth suddenly falling out from them like the above mentioned hidden pollution problems in China or unexplained chemicals gurgling to the surface and giving kids cancer like Love Canal.
nope you just get cancer alley.





 

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