A complete encirclement Of Pakistan? by the Indo-Afghan alliance??

[Joe Shearer]

This must be a joke even president of Kabul "Ghani" cannot claim that.

Joke?

Been there, done that. Next time, I'll take pictures. Admittedly, the politically significant and rich who are vulnerable to abduction can't do that. An elderly man with obvious goodwill, no problem.

 

[Providence]

Joke?

Been there, done that. Next time, I'll take pictures. Admittedly, the politically significant and rich who are vulnerable to abduction can't do that. An elderly man with obvious goodwill, no problem.

Hello sir ! Greetings. Welcome back

 

[Joe Shearer]

Hello sir ! Greetings. Welcome back

This is just a Roman holiday, and I am enjoying the Colosseum. The University is closed till early June, although I have a couple of minor chores next couple of days. Having finished marking my answer papers, now there is nothing much to do, but prepare my session plan for the next semester, which I want to conduct in a different way, and with much more emphasis on students learning outside the class.

So, till normalcy and the opening of the Univ. brings relief to all of you poor innocents (@ssethii are you reading this?), here I am.

 

[All-Green]

The Afghans have enjoyed the hospitality of Pakistani people and will continue to do so.
They have had decent opportunities in Pakistan and work hard.
They are present in every major city and well integrated.
The drug and timber mafia which came from Afghanistan and expanded into Pakistan should not be the litmus test to judge the average Afghan, just as the highly vocal extremists in Pakistan should not be the lens through which majority of Pakistan is viewed!

The Cold war era Jihad was a most unfortunate affair and all countries are facing the consequences.
The post Jihad era war lords were no better than Taliban, only less successful at unification and alignment of interests.
The Taliban succeeded because they were more organized, used a religious angle and promised change in wake of highly corrupt, bloody and selfish rule of the war lords.
Their success only occurred because their predecessors created space for a new ideology and people were desperate for change. The trust of the people was eventually betrayed as the Taliban became a most draconian ruling elite, instead of the rescuers they claimed to be.
Pakistan never dealt with Taliban to antagonize Afghanistan, we only wanted stability after US abandoned its allied countries and Afghanistan-Pakistan had to deal with the fallout of a global Jihad.
This concept of strategic depth is perhaps blown out of proportion. We certainly had no assets and formations ever trained to function out of Afghanistan in case of War against India. This is really low quality chest thumping by some silly "experts" in Pakistan and our critics elsewhere.
We still want good relations but our hurt pride, Afghan Government's tendency to politically snipe us now and again, complex geo-political reality of dealing with Afghan Taliban and the lukewarm relationship with non-Pashtun leadership is not helping Pakistan to bridge the gap effectively.

Whereas I do not believe in conspiracy theories, India has been aggressively poised towards Pakistan and it will use its ties with Afghanistan's current rulers to always squeeze Pakistan, the manner and scale of this pressure can take many forms.
On the other hand, Pakistan needs to reinvent its foreign policy. We cannot blossom in isolation and it would not be a bad idea to enhance our ties with Afghanistan and India.
Whereas I would like Kashmir to be made peaceful again, it would not hurt if we tone down the aggression and revive SAARC etc. in order to soften up the masses...it is not impossible...yet extremely difficult and not good for the pride of many...

The biggest problem I see in this context is the hawks on both sides in India and Pakistan who can make mountains out of mole hills.
Initial steps of real normalization of ties will be touted as weakness and will be bombarded by the Uber Patriots.
Only after few years will the real benefits of such improved ties begin to emerge, till that happens everyone will take a shot at the traitors who will be selling the honor of their motherland...certainly the corruption in the ranks of our rulers sows the seeds of doubt very readily.

I am afraid that even India (with much more political maturity) would be hard pressed to bring about such a change in the conventional attitude, especially since India is more upwards and Pakistan more downwards these days.
Whereas my Indian friends see Pakistan lost to extremism, you have this very forum to judge that many Pakistanis are rejecting this cold war era monster which was bred in this region for very specific purposes which had nothing to do with classical Islamic thought nor the betterment of Pakistan.
Whereas we are emotional people, even our Indian friends would be hard pressed to find such a forums where the supposed arch enemies are treated with respect and properly engaged by many patriotic people.
When I see this I tell myself that hope is not lost...

The time is right for India and Pakistan to improve ties, however it cannot be done without patience being showed by both sides. Proxy wars in Afghanistan, Kashmir, Baluchistan can all be addressed if we keep on talking to each other till our interests become more aligned and our relationship overcomes the powerful forces which keep us at each others throats.

 

[Spectre]

The Afghans have enjoyed the hospitality of Pakistani people and will continue to do so.
They have had decent opportunities in Pakistan and work hard.
They are present in every major city and well integrated.
The drug and timber mafia which came from Afghanistan and expanded into Pakistan should not be the litmus test to judge the average Afghan, just as the extremist yahoos and crazies which are most vocal in Pakistan should not be the lens through which Pakistan is viewed!

The Cold war era Jihad was a most unfortunate affair and all countries are facing the consequences.
The post Jihad era war lords were no better than Taliban, only less successful a unification and alignment of interests.
The Taliban succeeded because they were more organized, used a religious angle and promised change in wake of highly corrupt, bloody and selfish rule of the war lords.
Their success only occurred because their predecessors created space for a new ideology and people were desperate for change. The trust of the people was eventually betrayed as the Taliban became a most draconian ruling elite, instead of the rescuers they claimed to be.
Pakistan never dealt with Taliban to antagonize Afghanistan, we only wanted stability after US abandoned its allied countries and Afghanistan-Pakistan had to deal with the fallout of a global Jihad.
This concept of strategic depth is perhaps blown out of proportion.

Whereas I do not believe in conspiracy theories, India has been aggressively poised towards Pakistan and it will use its ties with Afghanistan's current rulers to always squeeze Pakistan, the manner and scale of this pressure can take many forms.
On the other hand, Pakistan needs to reinvent its foreign policy. We cannot blossom in isolation and it would not be a bad idea to enhance our ties with Afghanistan and India.
Whereas I would like Kashmir to be made peaceful again, it would not hurt if we tone down the aggression and revive SAARC etc. in order to soften up the masses...it is not impossible...yet extremely difficult and not good for the pride of many...

The biggest problem I see in this context is the hawks on both sides in India and Pakistan who can make mountains out of mole hills.
Initial steps of real normalization of ties will be touted as weakness and will be bombarded by the Uber Patriots.
Only after few years will the real benefits of such improved ties begin to emerge, till that happens everyone will take a shot at the traitors who will be selling the honor of their motherland...certainly the corruption in the ranks of our rulers sows the seeds of doubt very readily.

I am afraid that even India (with much more political maturity) would be hard pressed to bring about such a change in the conventional attitude, especially since India is more upwards and Pakistan more downwards these days.
Whereas my Indian friends see Pakistan lost to extremism, you have this very forum to judge that many Pakistanis are rejecting this cold war era monster which was bred in this region for very specific purposes which had nothing to do with classical Islamic thought nor the betterment of Pakistan.
Whereas we are emotional people, even our Indian friends would be hard pressed to find such a forums where the supposed arch enemies are treated with respect and properly engaged by many patriotic people.
When I see this I tell myself that hope is not lost...

The time is right for India and Pakistan to improve ties, however it cannot be done without patience being showed by both sides. Proxy wars in Afghanistan, Kashmir, Baluchistan can all be addressed if we keep on talking to each other till our interests become more aligned and our relationship overcomes the powerful forces which keep us at each others throats.

In a nutshell we have three major issues -

1. Spoiler Effect of Terrorism - Any and all terrorist attack on Indian soil by Pakistani actors (matters not if they are state or non state actors) will permanently reset any and progress made in interim.

Pakistan has to dismantle all Kashmir focused terror camps in your side of Kashmir as well as Punjab and other areas. Your diplomatic efforts on Kashmir can continue nonetheless.

2. Core Issue of Kashmir - As long as terror is controlled from Pakistan, talks can continue as per composite or comprehensive dialogue process laid down.

Only palatable solution is conversion of LoC to IB, as long as ceasefire is maintained and terror is absent hawks can be silenced.

3. Fear of Indian Hegemony - This seems to be a perceptional issue which drives many Pakistani policies with regards to keeping India engaged or weakened through proxies. It is inevitable that with passage of time, India will leave Pakistan far behind in all economic, defence and diplomatic related areas. That does not mean Pakistan cannot establish it's own niche. It is also advisable that Pakistan accepts India's rise and seeks to benefit from it, India has been similarly eclipsed by China but we do not let it drive our entire FP and security doctrine and maintain extensive trade and commerce with China so much so that there is a massive influx of investment from China to India.

 

[Tiger Genie]

neither India nor Pakistan have anything to gain by encircling and attacking Pakistan. All they are asking for is that Pakistan stop using terrorism across the borders. Pakistan out of sheer false pride, has let terrorists roam around, raise funds and radicalize Pakistanis and continues to do so.

 

[Gufi]

The best medicine you can administer to the educated Pakistani is to make him or her read Animal Farm.

Or make an Indian read the same, both have people sitting on top giving an illusion of free will/hope.. and top that off with the white tiger, another look into the real mentality.
The issues for both nations are the same. We are at a stage in some senses that you will arrive to in some time. The fires we lit in the past may haunt us now, but you are lighting those same fires as a nation and they will come back to haunt you.
This article fails to mentions how precarious the control of the Afghan government is and how few even understand why they vote or are bothered with the system. The current Afghan government has a rival shadow government which is biding its time.
The nation is a civil war about to happen, and when it burns, the victors will be those who the people support. The Afghan army and its arrogance, the corrupt political parties and the foreign ideas will not appeal to the tribal mindset and Afghanistan will revert to how it wanted to be all along.
A namesake army threatening our country or proxies floating in through a porous border will not change or effect anything major in Pakistan. All the consulates or trade routes can not benefit any country when the foreign troops finally do leave. And leave they will, as they are stretched in other corners of the world.
The war on terror will move to another war and then another war, and the emerging dragon and the rising bear both will change how policies are decided. This article is written by someone who sees nations in terms of days or years, while one needs to look in terms of decades at the very least. Yes, right now we are in a bad position, but are still sound enough that our soviergnity is going to remain intact.
Encircling an enemy is a bygone tactic, what was implemented was a pyschological war which India was winning against our nation until the last year and that war was the dangerous war and it was so quiet and so carefully executed that it crept up on most people. But with a loud angry Indian government we are yet again made to realise that the sweet India that was being presented by congress was just a lie and the real monster that was hidden from us in messages of being the same people divided by a border were sugar coated lies to make us believe that our enemy has moved on and wants friendship. Followed by that are the policies of this government which are strong for the short term, but leave no real doubt how it is using all of it's power to try and isolate and harm Pakistan. It is a wake up call and many people who were of the mindset that peace is the best way forward have been rudely awakened to the fact that peace can not be gained when the other preaches peace on one side and readies for war and does all it can to harm the nation on the other side.

Well, one of them is already on his hind legs, hopping earnestly from one to the other, and intoning "Four legs good, two legs better"!

that would be the nationalists in the Hindu right which are always talking about the enemy that is Pakistan, the lower castes, the phrase All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others. The other side of the coin is conveniently ignored when it seems fit do so it seems.

 

[Salik]

The biggest problem I see in this context is the hawks on both sides in India and Pakistan who can make mountains out of mole hills.
Initial steps of real normalization of ties will be touted as weakness and will be bombarded by the Uber Patriots.
Only after few years will the real benefits of such improved ties begin to emerge, till that happens everyone will take a shot at the traitors who will be selling the honor of their motherland...certainly the corruption in the ranks of our rulers sows the seeds of doubt very readily.

I am afraid that even India (with much more political maturity) would be hard pressed to bring about such a change in the conventional attitude, especially since India is more upwards and Pakistan more downwards these days.

Sir you are talking about resistance that comes from inside against normalization of relations between India and Pakistan. Please also highlight resistance that comes from far far lands. We've seen one example in shape of 'divide and rule'.

BTW is it divide and rule or rule and divide? Because British first ruled and then divided, and then divided and ruled and then divided and left

 

[Joe Shearer]

The Afghans have enjoyed the hospitality of Pakistani people and will continue to do so.
They have had decent opportunities in Pakistan and work hard.
They are present in every major city and well integrated.
The drug and timber mafia which came from Afghanistan and expanded into Pakistan should not be the litmus test to judge the average Afghan, just as the highly vocal extremists in Pakistan should not be the lens through which majority of Pakistan is viewed!

The Cold war era Jihad was a most unfortunate affair and all countries are facing the consequences.
The post Jihad era war lords were no better than Taliban, only less successful at unification and alignment of interests.
The Taliban succeeded because they were more organized, used a religious angle and promised change in wake of highly corrupt, bloody and selfish rule of the war lords.
Their success only occurred because their predecessors created space for a new ideology and people were desperate for change. The trust of the people was eventually betrayed as the Taliban became a most draconian ruling elite, instead of the rescuers they claimed to be.
Pakistan never dealt with Taliban to antagonize Afghanistan, we only wanted stability after US abandoned its allied countries and Afghanistan-Pakistan had to deal with the fallout of a global Jihad.
This concept of strategic depth is perhaps blown out of proportion. We certainly had no assets and formations ever trained to function out of Afghanistan in case of War against India. This is really low quality chest thumping by some silly "experts" in Pakistan and our critics elsewhere.
We still want good relations but our hurt pride, Afghan Government's tendency to politically snipe us now and again, complex geo-political reality of dealing with Afghan Taliban and the lukewarm relationship with non-Pashtun leadership is not helping Pakistan to bridge the gap effectively.

Whereas I do not believe in conspiracy theories, India has been aggressively poised towards Pakistan and it will use its ties with Afghanistan's current rulers to always squeeze Pakistan, the manner and scale of this pressure can take many forms.
On the other hand, Pakistan needs to reinvent its foreign policy. We cannot blossom in isolation and it would not be a bad idea to enhance our ties with Afghanistan and India.
Whereas I would like Kashmir to be made peaceful again, it would not hurt if we tone down the aggression and revive SAARC etc. in order to soften up the masses...it is not impossible...yet extremely difficult and not good for the pride of many...

The biggest problem I see in this context is the hawks on both sides in India and Pakistan who can make mountains out of mole hills.
Initial steps of real normalization of ties will be touted as weakness and will be bombarded by the Uber Patriots.
Only after few years will the real benefits of such improved ties begin to emerge, till that happens everyone will take a shot at the traitors who will be selling the honor of their motherland...certainly the corruption in the ranks of our rulers sows the seeds of doubt very readily.

I am afraid that even India (with much more political maturity) would be hard pressed to bring about such a change in the conventional attitude, especially since India is more upwards and Pakistan more downwards these days.
Whereas my Indian friends see Pakistan lost to extremism, you have this very forum to judge that many Pakistanis are rejecting this cold war era monster which was bred in this region for very specific purposes which had nothing to do with classical Islamic thought nor the betterment of Pakistan.
Whereas we are emotional people, even our Indian friends would be hard pressed find it impossible (Joe Shearer) to find such a forums where the supposed arch enemies are treated with respect and properly engaged by many patriotic people.
When I see this I tell myself that hope is not lost...

The time is right for India and Pakistan to improve ties, however it cannot be done without patience being showed by both sides. Proxy wars in Afghanistan, Kashmir, Baluchistan can all be addressed if we keep on talking to each other till our interests become more aligned and our relationship overcomes the powerful forces which keep us at each others throats.

This painfully true, very frank and uplifting message should be framed and hung up in every government office dealing with matters of external relations, or with matters relating to relations with Pakistan, and in the high offices of state, including the President, the Vice President and the Prime Minister.

I used to expect to see this from the pen of @niaz but wish to lose no time in hailing @All-Green as a master.

 

[Joe Shearer]

[#1]Or make an Indian read the same, both have people sitting on top giving an illusion of free will/hope.. and top that off with the white tiger, another look into the real mentality.
[#2]The issues for both nations are the same. We are at a stage in some senses that you will arrive to in some time. The fires we lit in the past may haunt us now, but you are lighting those same fires as a nation and they will come back to haunt you.
This article fails to mentions how precarious the control of the Afghan government is and how few even understand why they vote or are bothered with the system. The current Afghan government has a rival shadow government which is biding its time.
The nation is a civil war about to happen, and when it burns, the victors will be those who the people support. The Afghan army and its arrogance, the corrupt political parties and the foreign ideas will not appeal to the tribal mindset and Afghanistan will revert to how it wanted to be all along.
A namesake army threatening our country or proxies floating in through a porous border will not change or effect anything major in Pakistan. All the consulates or trade routes can not benefit any country when the foreign troops finally do leave. And leave they will, as they are stretched in other corners of the world.
The war on terror will move to another war and then another war, and the emerging dragon and the rising bear both will change how policies are decided. This article is written by someone who sees nations in terms of days or years, while one needs to look in terms of decades at the very least. Yes, right now we are in a bad position, but are still sound enough that our soviergnity is going to remain intact.
Encircling an enemy is a bygone tactic, what was implemented was a pyschological war which India was winning against our nation until the last year and that war was the dangerous war and it was so quiet and so carefully executed that it crept up on most people. But with a loud angry Indian government we are yet again made to realise that [#3] the sweet India that was being presented by congress was just a lie and the real monster that was hidden from us in messages of being the same people divided by a border were sugar coated lies to make us believe that our enemy has moved on and wants friendship. Followed by that are the policies of this government which are strong for the short term, but leave no real doubt how it is using all of it's power to try and isolate and harm Pakistan. It is a wake up call and many people who were of the mindset that peace is the best way forward have been rudely awakened to the fact that [#4]peace can not be gained when the other preaches peace on one side and readies for war and does all it can to harm the nation on the other side.

The other side of the coin is conveniently ignored when it seems fit do so it seems.

#1 We could go on turning the tables on each other for infinity. Would you at least accept that the transmutation of the imagery that I suggested by the replacements is valid?
#2 True. I am painfully aware of this and have been warning about the oncoming crisis on every forum available. It is frustrating to have you point out the very same thing.
#3 This is emphatically not true. The vast masses are indifferent, and only get aroused after a time of especially difficult infliction of hurt on the nation. Of those who are engaged in thinking about these issues, professionally and sometimes with a pedantic orientation, the vast majority are for peace; a certain section, of whom I am not one, actually believing that we are the same people divided by a border, but the majority believing that we are similar people divided by a border. There was no lying; there is no monster.
#4 Ironically, this precisely is the evaluation of many like me, who bear only goodwill for the Pakistani people, and who wish that Pakistan (with the exception of the cricket team) will go ahead and prosper, but who fear what you have worded so vividly.

 

[Gufi]

#1 We could go on turning the tables on each other for infinity. Would you at least accept that the transmutation of the imagery that I suggested by the replacements is valid?

The difference being we have begun to try to correct the issue and we accept many of our problems. We have different issues and as a nation Pakistan has begun a very serious debate on terrorism. The trolling here aside, more has been done in these 2 years to fix the current state of lawlessness and chaos then in the last 20. The vocal debates, the use of the ISIS word to scare the government to act in terms of many outlawed outfits of Punjab, and the army chief displeasure at not being allowed to act in Punjab before the Lahore bombing are all documented.

#2 True. I am painfully aware of this and have been warning about the oncoming crisis on every forum available. It is frustrating to have you point out the very same thing.

Well, this is the first time we are interacting so I would not know that.

#3 This is emphatically not true. The vast masses are indifferent, and only get aroused after a time of especially difficult infliction of hurt on the nation. Of those who are engaged in thinking about these issues, professionally and sometimes with a pedantic orientation, the vast majority are for peace; a certain section, of whom I am not one, actually believing that we are the same people divided by a border, but the majority believing that we are similar people divided by a border. There was no lying; there is no monster.

The rrhetoric from ruling ministers and people in government posts differs to the common man. See, most of our analysts or fanatics can use hateful rhetoric, but at times it comes from the very government from ministers and parliamentarians sitting in power at the time. It is not easy to ignore such things, especially with the statements which declare plans to divide Pakistan into four etc... your nation still quotes Zia at times and that has been 30sh years now... While most of our Tv channels were talking about peace, your news channels talk about the deficency of your fighter squadrons and the evil Pakistan that is ready to kill and maim everyone. That hurts good will and does brain wash the lesser educated masses. That is not something that can be denied, they are the sheep that will quieten the intellectuals.
Maybe if more like you would have been in power, we would not be so divided.

PS would love to get a reading list from you... please tag me or leave it on my profile page.

 

[Joe Shearer]

The difference being we have begun to try to correct the issue and we accept many of our problems. We have different issues and as a nation Pakistan has begun a very serious debate on terrorism. The trolling here aside, more has been done in these 2 years to fix the current state of lawlessness and chaos then in the last 20. The vocal debates, the use of the ISIS word to scare the government to act in terms of many outlawed outfits of Punjab, and the army chief displeasure at not being allowed to act in Punjab before the Lahore bombing are all documented.

I know, I know.

This is not the first time, and this will not be the last time that I have warned my compatriots that we are entering the same swamp that Pakistan is exiting, slowly, painfully slowly, but very clearly and steadily.

Well, this is the first time we are interacting so I would not know that.

My bad luck. But you could check with people like Oscar who keep an amused eye on my posts, which they seem to find entertaining.

The rrhetoric from ruling ministers and people in government posts differs to the common man. See, most of our analysts or fanatics can use hateful rhetoric, but at times it comes from the very government from ministers and parliamentarians sitting in power at the time.

Accepted. People in responsible positions should speak and write with more, much more responsibility.

It is not easy to ignore such things, especially with the statements which declare plans to divide Pakistan into four etc... your nation still quotes Zia at times and that has been 30sh years now...

Zia is a bugbear with intellectuals on both sides of the border. Many of my Pakistani friends bring out Zia as a bomb shelter whenever the conversation gets a little too uncomfortable, which is my cue that it is time to change the subject.

While most of our Tv channels were talking about peace, your news channels talk about the deficency of your fighter squadrons and the evil Pakistan that is ready to kill and maim everyone. That hurts good will and does brain wash the lesser educated masses. That is not something that can be denied, they are the sheep that will quieten the intellectuals.

Sadly, as you will find out if you follow thinking opinion in India, our electronic media have entered into a living nightmare phase, and terrifies us more than it terrifies you.

However, I have to admit that even the slightest deficiency with regard to preparedness against Pakistan is a hot button for an overwhelmingly large number of the population. We know you are gradually shaking off old chains and bonds and emerging as a sovereign civil polity, but the process isn't complete, and listening to your diplomats and soldiers (not the sailors not the airmen) gives most of us the creeps. It's scary, and in weaker, unguarded moments, we react fearfully.

Maybe if more like you would have been in power, we would not be so divided.

A 65 year old sometime defence-related technology manager turned management teacher, with almost as many Pakistani friends as Indian? You do have a strong sense of humour, don't you?

PS would love to get a reading list from you... please tag me or leave it on my profile page.

Would be delighted, but I need to understand more. Let me do what you suggested above.

 

[Gufi]

However, I have to admit that even the slightest deficiency with regard to preparedness against Pakistan is a hot button for an overwhelmingly large number of the population. We know you are gradually shaking off old chains and bonds and emerging as a sovereign civil polity, but the process isn't complete, and listening to your diplomats and soldiers (not the sailors not the airmen) gives most of us the creeps. It's scary, and in weaker, unguarded moments, we react fearfully.

The US is a nation which rules by fear, using it's media as a tool. They are in a state of perpetual panic and war, and they have no visible threats other then those they have created themselves. Looking at their peaceful history, one should really try and curb media freedom beyond a certain point. Freedom of speech is a liberty but not freedom to incite fear or anger and hate.
It is the educated that must speak up and demand change and in our country that process has begun with political change and accountability to the masses. The Indian issue is something that is a small blip in our radars until and unless something changes that balance. Then our media wakes up our fears and we digress from solving real issues, which damages India and its interests more then them being a squadron or two short ever could.

 

[Spectre]

The US is a nation which rules by fear, using it's media as a tool. They are in a state of perpetual panic and war, and they have no visible threats other then those they have created themselves. Looking at their peaceful history, one should really try and curb media freedom beyond a certain point. Freedom of speech is a liberty but not freedom to incite fear or anger and hate.
It is the educated that must speak up and demand change and in our country that process has begun with political change and accountability to the masses. The Indian issue is something that is a small blip in our radars until and unless something changes that balance. Then our media wakes up our fears and we digress from solving real issues, which damages India and its interests more then them being a squadron or two short ever could.

Who decides the boundaries beyond the already present restrictions against hate speech? Who can you trust to enforce the laws restricting freedom of speech beyond the existing curbs? Who is to say that these very laws will not be used for nefarious purpose to create an Orwellian Society?

@Joe Shearer how apt was your comment the other day about animal farm... This is how liberty ends - With good and noble intentions.

 

[Gufi]

Who decides the boundaries beyond the already present restrictions against hate speech? Who can you trust to enforce the laws restricting freedom of speech beyond the existing curbs? Who is to say that these very laws will not be used for nefarious purpose to create an Orwellian Society?

The comments I talked about are not those which end liberty, but those that create mischief... Remember the elusive snowball... hunting him makes no sense, and creating hate against other farms for self interest no sense either... That type of speech did no good, but drove things to a point where the populace was a subjugated mass of life.

@Joe Shearer how apt was your comment the other day about animal farm... This is how liberty ends - With good and noble intentions.

yes, There is a difference between freedom of speech and freedom of speech on the airwaves, where that speech is hate speech or the speech of propoganda... So used to it are we, that questioning it is what makes us the evil monsters... You read The book, but very superficially, there is another message about the use of speech, how it divides, how it makes sheep and what those sheep do... That is not freedom, but dancing to a tone. Those sheep stop any meaningful debate by snowball, they are used to.... oh read the book again please... Answer me when you have....