67th anniversary Hiroshima bombings

[gambit]

No crocodile tears Gambit.

And don't play the "oh see how bad they were to chinese/burmans/indians" routine man - you nuking them twice had nothing to do with helping ANY Asian.

You guys understandably get defensive about this.

What the US did was wrong. No two ways about it.

I doubt the US would EVER have nuked Germany.

Go figure.

Germany was ALREADY in 'nuked' status by the time of the A-bombs on Japan. Do you understand what that mean? The goal of the war was not only to free the world from the shackles of Nazi Germany in Europe and Imperial Japan in Asia, it was also about making as certain as possible that neither countries are capable of repeating the same again and if that mean complete subjugation of both -- so be it. The first goal was already achieved. The second was done in Europe and was in progress in Asia.

If the US is defensive about it, we have good cause to do so because the moral condemnation is isolated without context and that is clearly an intellectually dishonest position on your part. More people died in the fire bombings than in both A-bombs. More died from ordinary combat between soldiers than from both A-bombs.

But no crocodile tears for them...

 

[vsdoc]

page stuck man .....

Gambit, I am getting a feeling of deja vu.

Were you there on World Affairs Board when I had the the same debate with a bunch of your countrymen and a Canadian of Chinese ethnicity?

 

[harpoon]

The A-bomb shortened the war in Pacific saving far more American & Japanese lives.

 

[vsdoc]

The A-bomb shortened the war in Pacific saving far more American & Japanese lives.

Japan was already on its knees and negotiating surrender.

Nothing the A bomb did could not have been done by encirclement and naval siege.

Simply put, the Americans did not have the time.

Ivan was coming.

 

[sanddy]

If they haven't bombed japan they would had invaded the Japanese home land
with the odds of the slaughter of many
more civilians .

USA warned Japan
at Potsdam Conference to surrender, but no choice was left other then use of atomic bombs to
make them surrender .

 

[harpoon]

Japan was already on its knees and negotiating surrender.

Nothing the A bomb did could not have been done by encirclement and naval siege.

Simply put, the Americans did not have the time.

Ivan was coming.

The Japanese then were not the 'I love Hello Kitty ' type but 'Long Live the Emperor' type and was ready to fight to the last bullet and man. Japanese already were getting ready for a main land invasion by US and seeing the ferocity of Japanese Resistance at the various island bases especially Iwo Jima..Americans were horrified at the projected causality rate that they had to suffer if a mainland invasion takes place...which forced Truman to turn to the A-Bomb and he needed to drop 2 to finally convince the Japanese thats its "Game Over'.

If they haven't bombed japan they would invade the Japanese home land
with the odds of the slaughter of many
more civilians .

Japanese were ready to accept huge casulaities as seen in the fire bombing which killed more people than A-Bomb.

 

[vsdoc]

If they haven't bombed japan they would invade the Japanese home land
with the odds of the slaughter of many
more civilians .

Not to mention thousands of their own.

Like any prize fight, both opponents were punch drunk and tottering.

Iwo Jima and Okinawa had sapped the American will to fight.

Downfall may or may not have gone through. But that is academic.

The spoils would have been picked up by the Russians.

 

[gambit]

Japan was already on its knees and negotiating surrender.

The Allies demanded unconditional surrender.

Nothing the A bomb did could not have been done by encirclement and naval siege.

Except it would cost more lives on both sides.

Simply put, the Americans did not have the time.

The Allies did not want to spare the time. This is a convenient hindsight criticism by someone who chose to take lives easily for the sake of winning the discussion.

Not to mention thousands of their own.

Like any prize fight, both opponents were punch drunk and tottering.

Iwo Jima and Okinawa had sapped the American will to fight.

Downfall may or may not have gone through. But that is academic.

The spoils would have been picked up by the Russians.

All the more reasons to end the war quickly. The A-bombs did that.

 

[vsdoc]

We can go back and forth on and on ..... the American defence is predictable.

Here is a good thread for those who would like to know about a non-American view on the twin nuke strikes on Japan.

Please read from Page 4 onwards.

What if Japan had not surrendered? - Page 4

 

[gambit]

We can go back and forth on and on ..... the American defence is predictable.

Here is a good thread for those who would like to know about a non-American view on the twin nuke strikes on Japan.

Please read from Page 4 onwards.

What if Japan had not surrendered? - Page 4

If you are tired of this 'back and forth' then do not engage in the subject any more. You already made up your mind so consider it equally valid that others made up theirs and will rise to your challenge.

I see this post as a whiner post. You just do not like anyone to challenge your crocodile tears for the Japanese.

 

[vsdoc]

If you are tired of this 'back and forth' then do not engage in the subject any more. You already made up your mind so consider it equally valid that others made up theirs and will rise to your challenge.

I see this post as a whiner post. You just do not like anyone to challenge your crocodile tears for the Japanese.

If you have anything new to what has already been discussed in the thread link given, I am all ears.

Otherwise its just a waste of my time.

Because frankly this is not an American board, and as such, the topic is not inflammatory enough to warrant my interest.

I've had my jollies elsewhere.

 

[gambit]

If you have anything new to what has already been discussed in the thread link given, I am all ears.

Otherwise its just a waste of my time.

Because frankly this is not an American board, and as such, the topic is not inflammatory enough to warrant my interest.

I've had my jollies elsewhere.

If you are tired of the 'back and forth' it mean you have no interests in what was said and probably none for whatever information that may be new to you and relevant to the discussion. But do not try to get pretentious with me over this by implying that your time is more valuable than mine and others and by engaging you we are 'wasting' your time.

OPERATION KETSU-GO

The sooner the Americans come, the better...One hundred million die proudly.

- Japanese slogan in the summer of 1945.

Japan was finished as a warmaking nation, in spite of its four million men still under arms. But...Japan was not going to quit. Despite the fact that she was militarily finished, Japan's leaders were going to fight right on. To not lose "face" was more important than hundreds and hundreds of thousands of lives. And the people concurred, in silence, without protest. To continue was no longer a question of Japanese military thinking, it was an aspect of Japanese culture and psychology.

- James Jones, WWII

Japanese Homeland Defense Strategy

With the greater part of Japan's troop strength overseas and industrial production suffering under constant American air attacks, the defense of the Japanese home islands presented an enormous challenge to the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters (IGHQ). On 8 April 1945, the Imperial General Headquarters issued orders, to be effective 15 April, activating the First and Second General Armies.(1) These two Armies would be responsible for the ground defense of the Japanese home islands. Also, on 8 April 1945, IGHQ issued an order activating the Air General Army, effective 15 April. The purpose of the new Air General Army was to coordinate the air defense of Japan, providing a single headquarters through which cooperation with the ground forces and the Navy could be expedited in implementing the defense of the home islands.(2) Simultaneously with the activation of the First and Second General Armies and the Air General Army, IGHQ issued orders for the implementation of Ketsu-Go (Decisive) Operation. Defensive in nature, the operation divided the Japanese home territory into seven zones from which to fight the final decisive battles of the Japanese empire.

 

[vsdoc]

Critical Dates for Understanding Truman's Decision

1. Truman delays Potsdam meeting with the Soviets until he is informed that the atomic bomb was successfully tested. The atomic bomb exploded in Alamogordo, New Mexico, on July 16th, and the Postdam meeting began on July 17th, 1945.

2. At Postdam, Truman gets the Soviets to agree to enter the war a week later than they had originally promised, moving the date from August 8th to August 15th, 1945.

3. After Soviets agree to enter the war against Japan on August 15th, Truman then orders that the Atomic bombs be dropped on August 6th and 9th, 1945.

4. If Truman thought that the war would be over as soon as the Soviets entered the war against Japan, why did he drop the atomic bombs on Japan before the Soviets could enter the war on August 15th, 1945?

5. Recognizing that the United States had misled them, after the American atomic bombing of Hiroshima on August 6th, the Russians entered the war against Japan on August 9th. After the atomic bombing of Nagasaki and the Russian entry into the war on August 9th, the Japanese surrendered on August 10th and the U.S. accepted their surrender on August 15th--the day the Russians were scheduled to enter the war against Japan.

6. In order to keep the Russians out of any peace settlement with Japan and prevent any Russian claims on Asia, the United States accepted the Japanese offer of conditional surrender on August 10th.The Japanese surrender wasn't an unconditional surrender, which President Truman had demanded of the Japanese since May 1945.

7. Had the United States allowed the Japanese to keep their emperor the Japanese would have surrendered much earlier, as early as June 1945 when the Japanese offered a conditional surrender through Russian and Italian intermediaries.

 

[vsdoc]

The Russian Angle - and why 200,000 Japanese had to die

In addition to Eisenhower, most top military brass were not convinced that dropping the bomb was the right thing to do or that it had any real impact on Japan's decision to surrender - Leahy and Arnold leading the pack.

Even the American military's own study, "U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey," in 1946 concluded that it wasn't necessary to drop the bomb on Japan.

In 1946, the U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey examined the evidence and concluded that that "certainly prior to December 31, 1945, and in all probability prior to November 1, 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated."

Two months is what most experts agree upon as expediting the inevitable. Versus hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilian lives.

So why the hurry?

RUSSIA.

Secretary of State James Byrnes wanted to use the atomic bomb to end the war before "Moscow could get in so much on the kill." Byrnes did not argue that is was necessary to use the bomb against the cities of the Japan in order to win the war.... Byrnes' view was that our possessing and demonstrating the bomb ("rattling the bomb") would make Russia more "manageable." President Truman wanted to end the war before the Russians could enter the war against Japan in Asia. Truman didn't want Russia to play a major role in determining the post-war peace in Asia.

While at the Potsdam meeting, Truman National Security Advisor, James Byrnes advised Truman that a combat display of the weapon might be used to bully Russia into submission, and the the bomb "might well put us in a position to dictate our own terms at the end of the war."

Or, consider a diary entry by Walter Brown, an assistant to Secretary of State Byrnes which clearly suggests Truman and Byrnes saw the bomb as a way to reduce Soviet political influence in Asia. Brown noted that Byrnes, whom Truman had designated his main adviser on the issue, was "hoping for time, believing that after (the) atomic bomb Japan will surrender and Russia will not get in so much on the kill, thereby being in a position to press for claims in China."

When General Marshall dispatched Truman's order to drop the atomic bomb, Marshall already believed that Japan had lost the war. Shortly before he died, Marshall told an interviewer that the atomic bomb had precipitated the surrender only "by months."

 

[vsdoc]

The BS about the "Unconditional Surrender" Angle

America did not accept Japan's offer of conditional surrender as early as May 1945.

Yet they did just that by allowing Japan to keep their Emperor less than three months later - AFTER annihilating two cities!

In order to keep the Russians out of any peace settlement with Japan and prevent any Russian claims on Asia, the United States accepted the Japanese offer of conditional surrender on August 15th.

The Japanese surrender wasn't an unconditional surrender, which President Truman had demanded of the Japanese since May 1945. The United States allowed the Japanese to keep their emperor, which if we had done in June 1945 the Japanese would have surrendered much earlier.

So why then did the US drop the atomic bombs on Japan? To keep the Russians out of the war against Japan and out of Asia. When the atomic bombing didn't succeed in getting an unconditional surrender, the United States accepted a Japanese conditional surrender in order to keep the Russians out of the war.

Truman explained his actions at the Potsdam conference this way: "One of the main objectives of the Potsdam Conference was to get Russia in as quickly as we could and then to keep Russia out of Japan--and I did it."

Truman's Secretary of State James Byrnes wanted to use the atomic bomb to end the war before Moscow "could get in so much of the kill." Byrnes told Leo Szilard in May 1945 that "rattling the bomb might make Russia more manageable." Truman himself refers to what the Russians would later call dangerous "atomic diplomacy" by describing his strategy for dealing with the Russians: "He doesn't know it but I have an ace in the hole and another one showing--so unless he has two pairs (and I know he has not) we are sitting all right."

For Truman and Byrnes, dropping the atomic bomb on Japan would quickly force Japan to surrender on American terms before the Russians could get into the way and would also demonstrate to the Soviet Union that the United States had the will and the power to use the atomic bomb against its enemies.

So why didn't President Truman go to the American people and tell them the truth about why he dropped the atomic bombs?

Ever wondered about that Gambit?