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5th Gen Aircraft Maybe Impotent Against A Large Enemy W/out A Complimentary Heavy Strike Aircraft

Economy in this context also means, and in fact back then primarily was, a war economy. Plus to the best of my knowledge the ball bearings were also used in commercial production. However, either way that wasn't the main thrust of what I had stated.
So what ? Tractors are not used for war. But tractors can be used to tow aircrafts. So how do we know which tractor that came out of a factory is going where ? Your criticism of the Schweinfurt–Regensburg ball bearing factory mission was that it had little effects on the German economy. That mission was not about the economy.
 
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So what ? Tractors are not used for war. But tractors can be used to tow aircrafts. So how do we know which tractor that came out of a factory is going where ? Your criticism of the Schweinfurt–Regensburg ball bearing factory mission was that it had little effects on the German economy. That mission was not about the economy.

OP gave the example of the movie in the context of bombers mauling an economy. I referenced the actual raid and observed that it made little impact on the economy.

When you say that mission was not about the economy you're (a) creating a strawman and (b) arguing pointlessly, it seems to me. My last on the subject, unless there is something of substance regarding the OP.
 
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AOA, MK bahi ..... I cannot stop my self from saying that this thread seems a nice way to communicate that we are going to buy SU-34 and SU-35 ..... lets hear your views ..... so no issues .....they are both good platforms and I have seen many good discussion from senior members on this forum (not to mention your high recommendations for JH-7B) trying to convince fighter pilot lobby within PAF to actually consider the bombers (if not so then atleast fighter bomber so that "FIGHTER" element stay there to satisfy them or their ego). I think the strategist are convinced after viewing the recent role of SU-34 fullback that people like MK maaaaay be saying the right thing (although I belief that you are being to harsh in critics towards them considering the recent past circumstances that we have faced) ..... furthermore the small jet "JF17" that we have acquired may not be able to sustain the heavies coming from other side in large numbers especially as per cold start on the "day one", hence, something must be there to support them and that's where these solutions come in.

over and above that we might also need an offensive system to show some teeth as well, and yes on the southern side we definitely need the heavies or fighter bombers.

Considering the state we are in what are options and feasible ones

SU-35/SU-34 (new russian) may be
mirage 2k (second hand) more feasible
EFT (new european) $$$ MK do not want to hear (difficult)

regards
zeeshan
 
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AOA, MK bahi ..... I cannot stop my self from saying that this thread seems a nice way to communicate that we are going to buy SU-34 and SU-35 ..... lets hear your views ..... so no issues .....they are both good platforms and I have seen many good discussion from senior members on this forum (not to mention your high recommendations for JH-7B) trying to convince fighter pilot lobby within PAF to actually consider the bombers (if not so then atleast fighter bomber so that "FIGHTER" element stay there to satisfy them or their ego). I think the strategist are convinced after viewing the recent role of SU-34 fullback that people like MK maaaaay be saying the right thing (although I belief that you are being to harsh in critics towards them considering the recent past circumstances that we have faced) ..... furthermore the small jet "JF17" that we have acquired may not be able to sustain the heavies coming from other side in large numbers especially as per cold start on the "day one", hence, something must be there to support them and that's where these solutions come in.

over and above that we might also need an offensive system to show some teeth as well, and yes on the southern side we definitely need the heavies or fighter bombers.

Considering the state we are in what are options and feasible ones

SU-35/SU-34 (new russian) may be
mirage 2k (second hand) more feasible
EFT (new european) $$$ MK do not want to hear (difficult)

regards
zeeshan

What about the Chinese? We could go for the Xian JH7
 
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Hi,

1965---Asghar Khan calls indian chief and says if your air force don't fight I will order mine not to.

before 71 war---Bhutto asks the air force have the B57 canberra electronic surveillance aircraft fly over the kashmir and surrounding areas----air chief refused

71 war---report of missile boats being towed towards karachi---pia pilots reports to the tower---the tower calls paf----the coward base commander yessir---instead of flying an immediate mission to check out---calls the air chief---who orders to stand down---none of you traitors had the ballz to execute him----

F16 drama----turning down the hawkeye surveillance aircraft---paf says it is not worth it----oh it was---.

The mirages 3/5 were good enough for what russia was throwing at them in afghanistan----.

Paf pilots bragging about shooting down worthless russian aircraft and then strutting around----

going for the 2nd batch of F16's with cash and that also against the advise of many----sanctions on F16's

The mirage 2k purchase fiasco---the supposed buyer---was too honest---

no go with the m2ks----

sanctions come off---still the air force not ready to buy---says that there is no war with india so there is no reason to get an aircraft-----kept up the drama for 4 years---then stopped the purchase of a potent aircraft in 2005---stating earthquake


karachi base under attack---half a billion dollars planes destroyed---the base commander was had marriarge hall at the base---base security what????instead of being executed by a firing squad????

another base attacked ay kamra---another 1 /2 billion loss---another coawrd base commander---if it was not for one soldier---all the assets would have been destroyed---/

Would not recommend nishan a haider for that soldier who saved the base---but did recommend nishan a haider for the pilot who stopped his plane on the taxi way where he was not supposed to and let an illegal into the aircraft

the jf 17 drama----failed to recognize the problems in france regarding the electronics package---a major setback for the jf17 program---

another base attack in peshawar---air force not ready to protect its assets----.

the air chief brags on flying a mission killing 30 taliban---the taliban strike back and kill a minimum of 30 air force personal---what and idiot of an acm---.

After the first base attack---the base commander---the base security incharge and westernn command should have been executed by a firing squad

after the attack on kamra---the base commander----base security officer----the central command the air chief should have been executed by the firing squad---same after the thrid attack at peshawar----.

I guess the thrid attack would not have happend---because every body would have been on their toes after the first executions---.

15 years since the sanctions came off---a miniscule number of aircraft procured

the farud in the SA missile systems---

the mindset of the air force---' we are a defensive air force "---a big lie to the nation---

this fraud incompetence treachery is on the surface---the insider stuff---you would know better---.


It is just like the LAPD---the Los Angeles Police Dept----they are fcking butchers---will slaughter you in a heart beat---but then they have their spokes personal as well---nice and kind and genetle---" please show us where we went wrong " we are folowing dept policies---.

This frigging paf----one show in 1965---and has been milking the nation since then---.





MK, the glass is not half empty. You raise some valid points, i agree to some and don't agree to others, but this is what healthy discussion is about. There are many wins among the losses you mention, and unfortunately most of them cannot be waved in public eye. Pakistan Air Force is a formidable fighting force, with a competent operations leadership. PAF maintains its technical edge in many areas over the adversary, and is well equipped to deal with the current and emerging threat. Have hope, not all are rotten, and many work solely with noble purpose and duty to serve.
 
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PAF maintains its technical edge in many areas over the adversary

I hope you can substantiate this claim of PAF's technical edge in many areas for the benefit of members lest it be confused with bravado
 
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Still Sir budget is what shatters our dreams and goals unfortunately but as we are helping China get CPEC and we need to have good relations with Middle East once again and may be get a massive defence package from entire GCC combined. I mean from Qatar and Bahrain and UAE and KSA. Than we can do lot of stuff specially for our Air Force and Navy. As Air Force and Navy would get better and more stronger and also bigger we can provide security to GCC with more ease.
Dear Pakistan was not indulged in insane war on either's behalf despite having good relations with Iran and Arabs both. So Pak can't get blood money like Egypt.

Still Sir budget is what shatters our dreams and goals unfortunately but as we are helping China get CPEC and we need to have good relations with Middle East once again and may be get a massive defence package from entire GCC combined. I mean from Qatar and Bahrain and UAE and KSA. Than we can do lot of stuff specially for our Air Force and Navy. As Air Force and Navy would get better and more stronger and also bigger we can provide security to GCC with more ease.
Dear Pakistan was not indulged in insane war on either's behalf, they have good relations with Iran and Arabs both. So Pak can't get blood money like Egypt.

Still Sir budget is what shatters our dreams and goals unfortunately but as we are helping China get CPEC and we need to have good relations with Middle East once again and may be get a massive defence package from entire GCC combined. I mean from Qatar and Bahrain and UAE and KSA. Than we can do lot of stuff specially for our Air Force and Navy. As Air Force and Navy would get better and more stronger and also bigger we can provide security to GCC with more ease.
Dear Pakistan was not indulged in insane war on either's behalf, they have good relations with Iran and Arabs both. So Pak can't get blood money like Egypt.
 
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I hope you can substantiate this claim of PAF's technical edge in many areas for the benefit of members lest it be confused with bravado

Why don't you enlighten me on how PAF does not have technical edge::

A proven BVR weapon weapon system deployed on the most successful multi role aircraft
Complete data linked aircraft and sensors, most comprehensive C4I implementation with allied forces
Most comprehensive ADGE sensor coverage, including High Level, Low Level, and Airborne
Effective use of legacy platforms, high serviceability rates
high pilot to aircraft ratio
effective training and retention for combat pilots
successful local license production of domestically configured aircraft.
Planned phase out of legacy aircraft

Or is it still bravado?
 
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That B52 very impressive machine surprised why we don't have 18 of these B52
lovely machinery , tactical usage , fast and lethal, forget about Sukhoi

Would really compliment our Defensive F16 force / that is a wonderful counter force when you mix the JF17 thunders

060202-F-6809H-992.JPG


This is my kind of machine what if all these are RAAD deployment in 1 go
B-52_Stratofortress.jpg


Sukhoi -35 would be ok , if it happens sure why not but B52 now that is what I term as long term investment may be if things have moved in right direction that we may get a big order for Sukhoi etc which is fine as nationally we don't have a beef with Russia let see if a good order is concluded

We have 80 F16 , and soon 80 JF17 Thunders ...we have tactical defensive force

However when we look at Modern Air-forces etc every one seems to mix and match

Example:
  • Egypt have mix of Western/Russian/Chinese weaponry
  • Turkey has mix of Western hardware and Turkish software etc.
  • India has mix of US/Russian and now French planes etc
  • Saudia has mix of US/UK machines

So would Pakistan Air-force benefit from having 30-36 Sukhoi-35 , it would be good bold move to diversify assets consider we need to replace 300 planes of older generation. Obviously we will still be short on planes even after that



So what are our options?
  • F35 / F22/ F15 SE are all out of reach
  • Typhoon (Interesting plane may be ) still expensive
  • Gripen/F18 Hornet don't add much to our force, would be ok for NAVY role for Hornet 100 planes for NAVY and retire all mirages
Considering , we need a workhorse machine having 36-40 Sukhoi planes if good in term of some special mission planes to protect strategic assets or city areas would make sense obviously other choice would be Typhoon (If its available)

May be Typhoon would be my choice (if we had funding and we wanted close ties to Turkey etc)

RSAF-Typhoon-top.jpg


  • Logical choice would be Sukhoi-35 (40 planes) to help retire 60-100 Mirages
  • Logical choice would be 50 Typhoons to help retire 60-100 F7
Really don't feel it is the most urgent thing we need , I would buy SAM

However , with the financial crunch etc just don't know if buying a brand new plane is Top priority we just bought SUBs last year

Just get 25 JF17 block 2, and pick up another 10-18 F16 For now good enough
 
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Why don't you enlighten me on how PAF does not have technical edge::

A proven BVR weapon weapon system deployed on the most successful multi role aircraft
Complete data linked aircraft and sensors, most comprehensive C4I implementation with allied forces
Most comprehensive ADGE sensor coverage, including High Level, Low Level, and Airborne
Effective use of legacy platforms, high serviceability rates
high pilot to aircraft ratio
effective training and retention for combat pilots
successful local license production of domestically configured aircraft.
Planned phase out of legacy aircraft

Or is it still bravado?

The edge suggests PAF possessing many things which IAF doesn't.


All your points have highlighted is that PAF is a professionally run, modern Airforce. I hope you don't mean to say that IAF doesn't possess proven BVR, Data Linked Aircrafts, Training of pilots, planned obsolescence etc. If you do then well as they say "Ignorance is Bliss"
 
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The edge suggests PAF possessing many things which IAF doesn't.

All your points have highlighted is that PAF is a professionally run, modern Airforce. I hope you don't mean to say that IAF doesn't possess proven BVR, Data Linked Aircrafts, Training of pilots, planned obsolescence etc. If you do then well as they say "Ignorance is Bliss"

You asked a question, however, you are not ready to accept the answer. I have only pointed out the areas where IAF is struggling, as per Indian media and DoD reports. However, I am sure IAF is committed in addressing those areas, as it is run by professionals without a doubt.
 
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You asked a question, however, you are not ready to accept the answer. I have only pointed out the areas where IAF is struggling, as per Indian media and DoD reports. However, I am sure IAF is committed in addressing those areas, as it is run by professionals without a doubt.

I don't wish to prolong this hence let's leave at this. I never claimed that IAF has a technical edge on PAF while you claimed PAF does have many technical edges on IAF. The reality is both forces face similar problems to varying degrees. In terms of pure technical advantage - I am yet to see a more advanced technologies deployed currently by PAF which IAF currently doesn't have access too. I don't believe cumulatively PAF holds a decisive qualitative edge over IAF Perhaps @Oscar or @MilSpec may weigh in on this.

All the best
 
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No no no sir there is no qualitative edge on anything

Pakistani Air-force is 100% pure defensive Air-force, India has vast quantity of number of planes which are whole generation ahead of F7 and Mirage.

So that is full gap of 300 planes, also the weapon missile carriage on Indian jets is higher vs Pakistani planes

The odd 8 jets here or 10 Jets will not cut it

Reality is we need to let go of 300 planes and we need at least 250 planes purchased

There is no denying that Pakistan have to upgrade our planes

Now had we not cancelled the J10B purchase of 36 planes , our situation would have been more stable but it was decision that was taken and no we did not get any 5th generation plane as many folks touted as prime reason for not getting J10B

So now we just have to see who will provide us with 40-50 Jets we need

It would be nice to see proposals for Typhoon or Sukhoi-35 jet see how things stand


Plane Wish List:
  • Sukhoi-35
  • Typhoon
  • J10B (AESA enabled)
  • F15 SE (If we get 80 planes with good radar)



--Pakistan ----------India

F16 : 76 --------------------------Su-30MKI : 220 (Numeric / Missile Advantage)
JF17 :66 -------------------------Mikoyan MiG-29 : 60 (Suppose to be bigger plane)
Mirage 3: 75-(Retiring)--------Mirage 2000 : 50 (GENERATIONAL GAP DIFFERENCE)
Mirage V: 82 (Retiring)--------SEPERCAT Jaguar: 145 (Numerical advantage & avionics)
F7: 192 (Retiring)---------------MiG-21 Bahadur: 242 (Numerical advantage)

???? ------------------------------ Raphael 40 (Balance will grow further)


So we (Pakistan) really need about 250 planes replaced
 
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The readers must understand---that when you buy a weapons system---it is not for show---it is not what you wanted to buy----but it is to counter what the enemy has and to negate their strength. MastanKhan
What are the realistical options and what to buy then?
 
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