50 Apaches from Boeing British Government is set to buy

[Jhon Smith]

600 British jobs are at risk as the Ministry of Defence is set to hand £425million helicopter deal to a US firm

• British Government is set to buy 50 battle-ready Apaches from Boeing
• Apaches previously fitted out by UK helicopter-maker AgustaWestland
• If Government buys from US, it puts 600 jobs at AgustaWestland at risk

Hundreds of British jobs were feared to be under threat last night as the Ministry of Defence was poised to award a £425 million contract to provide Apache helicopters exclusively to a US manufacturer.

The Government’s move to buy 50 battle-ready Apaches from Boeing could put up to 600 jobs in jeopardy at the UK’s last helicopter-maker, AgustaWestland.

The controversial decision is reminiscent of the issues that triggered the Westland Affair of 1985-86 when Defence Secretary Michael Heseltine stormed out of Downing Street and quit after a row with Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher over the future of the company.

In action: The British Army's Apache attack helicopters – which Prince Harry famously flew in combat in Afghanistan - have previously been fitted out and serviced at AgustaWestland’s factory in Yeovil, Somerset

While the Apache attack helicopter – which Prince Harry famously flew in combat in Afghanistan – is an American design, previously the helicopters in service with the British Army Air Corps were fitted out and serviced at AgustaWestland’s factory in Yeovil, Somerset.



Ian Waddell, Unite union’s national aerospace manufacturers officer, said: ‘We will be seeking cast-iron assurances from the companies and the Ministry of Defence that the present employment levels at AgustaWestland will be maintained as a result of the Apache deal.’


The Government’s move to buy 50 battle-ready Apaches from Boeing could put up to 600 jobs in jeopardy at the UK’s last helicopter-maker, AgustaWestland

Boeing: Boeing in Renton, Wash.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...llion-helicopter-deal-firm.html#ixzz4A0YlqptM
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[Penguin]

AgustaWestland S.p.A was a helicopter design and manufacturing company and is a wholly owned subsidiary of Finmeccanica S.p.a., (today Leonardo - Finmeccanica). It was formed in July 2000 as an Anglo-Italian multinational company, when Finmeccanica and GKN (Guest Keen Baldwins) merged their respective helicopter subsidiaries (Agusta and Westland Helicopters) to form AgustaWestland, with each holding a 50% share. Finmeccanica acquired GKN's stake in AgustaWestland in 2004. From 1 January 2016, the activities of AgustaWestland merged into Leonardo - Finmeccanica’s Helicopter Sector.

So, in short, seems like an example of the UK not favouring a European company over a US company. Why not make UK the 51st state?

 

[C130]

AgustaWestland S.p.A was a helicopter design and manufacturing company and is a wholly owned subsidiary of Finmeccanica S.p.a., (today Leonardo - Finmeccanica). It was formed in July 2000 as an Anglo-Italian multinational company, when Finmeccanica and GKN (Guest Keen Baldwins) merged their respective helicopter subsidiaries (Agusta and Westland Helicopters) to form AgustaWestland, with each holding a 50% share. Finmeccanica acquired GKN's stake in AgustaWestland in 2004. From 1 January 2016, the activities of AgustaWestland merged into Leonardo - Finmeccanica’s Helicopter Sector.

So, in short, seems like an example of the UK not favouring a European company over a US company. Why not make UK the 51st state?

I don't get this "Why not make UK the 51st state" It's a freaking helicopter that's it. It was the best when decided to go for it and still the best now.


this mentality of Europeans should buy European is asinine.


no wonder UK wants to get out of the EU they have no freedom.

 

[Penguin]

I don't get this "Why not make UK the 51st state" It's a freaking helicopter that's it. It was the best when decided to go for it and still the best now.

this mentality of Europeans should buy European is asinine.

no wonder UK wants to get out of the EU they have no freedom.

The Brits always have their freedom, it is that kind of talk that is used to 'justify' Brexit.

You're not getting it. It is not a matter of NOT getting a US helicopter. It is a matter of where that helicopter will be built: in the US or in the UK.

My remarks is in reference to Britain chosing to let a US company make a helicopter that a company located in Yeovil, Britain has also been making in licence production (WAH-74D). You cannot help but wonder if that does not have to do with AgustaWestland just now having become full property of a Italian company.

http://www.leonardocompany.com/en/product-services/elicotteri_helicopters

The extensive network of international collaborations developed over the years has helped to expand our range of products and increase the penetration of markets and sales opportunities. The main international partners in the Helicopter Sector are:

• Boeing (USA) for licence production of the Apache AH Mk.1 for the United Kingdom, as well as the integration and final assembly of the ICH-47F for the Italian Army

But hey, "we would rather order from Boeing directly" ...

In Sweden, the government intervened when TKMS was putting the Swedish capacity to design and build submarines independently out of action. The UK government is leaving its helicopter industry out in the cold.

Reverse the situation and tell me that in the US nobody would frown on it. Ever followed how protective US is when it comes to European (incl. UK) companies getting orders from US military?

 

[C130]

Th


e Brits always have their freedom, it is that kind of talk that is used to 'justify' Brexit.

My remarks is in reference to Britain chosing to let a US company make a helicopter that a company located in Yeovil, Britain has also been making in licence production (WAH-74D). You cannot help but wonder if that does not have to do with AgustaWestland just now having become full property of a Italian company.

http://www.leonardocompany.com/en/product-services/elicotteri_helicopters


But hey, "we would rather order from Boeing directly" ...

i don't think it has anything to do with Augusta being fully owned by Italians. It probably has more to do with economics than anything

it would be a lot cheaper to buy straight from Boeing saving the UK tax payers a lot of pounds

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/...t-Apache-attack-helicopter-20m-just-8-5m.html

Pressure is mounting on the Ministry of Defence to choose American aircraft maker Boeing to supply Britain’s next generation fleet of Apache attack helicopters after the price of each machine was slashed to just $13 million (£8.5 million).

The price represents a huge discount on the sum paid by the MoD for its current fleet of 67 Apaches in 1995.

Then the MoD paid a total of £44million after AgustaWestland had added £24million of upgrades, including new engines, to Boeing’s £20million airframes.

 

[Penguin]

i don't think it has anything to do with Augusta being fully owned by Italians. It probably has more to do with economics than anything

it would be a lot cheaper to buy straight from Boeing saving the UK tax payers a lot of pounds

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/...t-Apache-attack-helicopter-20m-just-8-5m.html

Pressure is mounting on the Ministry of Defence to choose American aircraft maker Boeing to supply Britain’s next generation fleet of Apache attack helicopters after the price of each machine was slashed to just $13 million (£8.5 million).

The price represents a huge discount on the sum paid by the MoD for its current fleet of 67 Apaches in 1995.

Then the MoD paid a total of £44million after AgustaWestland had added £24million of upgrades, including new engines, to Boeing’s £20million airframes.

As if those are the only costs/expenses a government has to take into consideration....

 

[C130]

As if those are the only costs/expenses a government has to take into consideration....

what other costs are referring to? surely AugustaWestland will still service British Apaches.

 

[Penguin]

what other costs are referring to? surely AugustaWestland will still service British Apaches.

You obviously not lost any vital military industries, recently.

 

[C130]

You obviously not lost any vital military industries, recently.

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/...-attack-choppers-Boeing-drops-price-425m.html

AgustaWestland, part of the Italian defence giant Leonardo-Finmeccanica, has a £430 million contract to maintain the present Apaches, ensuring the survival of hundreds of jobs until 2019. The firm employs 3,200 staff.


it can't be helped if it's cheaper to buy straight from Boeing than AugustaWestland.

you are still servicing them so it's not a total lost.

 

[Penguin]

the price of each machine was slashed to just $13 million (£8.5 million).

The price represents a huge discount on the sum paid by the MoD for its current fleet of 67 Apaches in 1995. Then the MoD paid a total of £44million after AgustaWestland had added £24million of upgrades, including new engines, to Boeing’s £20million airframes.

44?

The AgustaWestland Apache is a licence-built version of the AH-64D Apache Longbow attack helicopter for the British Army's Army Air Corps. The first eight helicopters were built by Boeing; the remaining 59 were assembled by Westland Helicopters (now part of Finmeccanica) at Yeovil, Somerset in England from Boeing-supplied kits.

In September 1998, Westland produced the first prototype WAH-64 Apache under licence from Boeing

Changes from the AH-64D include Rolls-Royce Turbomeca engines, a new electronic defensive aids suite and a folding blade mechanism allowing the British version to operate from ships. The rotor blades also have anti-ice protection to allow operations in Arctic environments. There were changes made to the sensor and avionics outfitting the craft as well; connectivity with the BOWMAN secure communications system to interact with other British military units being a significant one. The helicopter was initially designated WAH-64 by Westland Helicopters and was later designated Apache AH Mk 1 (often shortened to Apache AH1)

As of August 2015 [some 17 years later], the UK has requested through a Foreign Military Sale, the upgrade of 50 of its Apaches to AH-64E standard.

The UK's Strategic Defence Review called for Apaches to undertake amphibious attack missions, operating from the helicopter carrier HMS Ocean, the Invincible class aircraft carriers and their successors, the Queen Elizabeth class aircraft carriers, and possibly the amphibious assault vessels HMS Bulwark and Albion
Program cost £4.1 billion
Unit cost £35 million

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AgustaWestland_Apache

More powerfull RR engines, we call that an off-set. for buying US at all.
Being able to communicate with the other UK units would seem nice: can the £8.5 million Apaches do that?
Can they be stowed in confined spaces due to folding rotors? Can they operate in arctic environments?

600 jobs gone
Effects: http://www.economicshelp.org/macroeconomics/unemployment/costs/

 

[C130]

44?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AgustaWestland_Apache

More powerfull RR engines, we call that an off-set. for buying US at all.
Being able to communicate with the other UK units would seem nice: can the £8.5 million Apaches do that?
Can they be stowed in confined spaces due to folding rotors? Can they operate in arctic environments?

RTM322 2,100 HP General Electric T700-701D 1,994 HP that's only a 106 HP difference. I doubt you would even notice the difference between the two in combat scenarios.

I don't see why the UK wouldn't be able to upgrade it's Boeing built Apaches to communicate with other UK units

can they be stowed in confined spaces?? I dunno do they need to

can they operate in arctic environments?? I think so


http://www.armytimes.com/story/mili...ack-helos-get-cold-weather-upgrades/81549158/

 

[Penguin]

RTM322 2,100 HP General Electric T700-701D 1,994 HP that's only a 106 HP difference. I doubt you would even notice the difference between the two in combat scenarios.

I don't see why the UK wouldn't be able to upgrade it's Boeing built Apaches to communicate with other UK units

can they be stowed in confined spaces?? I dunno do they need to

can they operate in arctic environments?? I think so


http://www.armytimes.com/story/mili...ack-helos-get-cold-weather-upgrades/81549158/

Important deviations made by AgustaWestland from the U.S. Apache variants include changing to more powerful Rolls-Royce engines, and the addition of a folding blade assembly for use on naval ships

As I set: engine is offset
The Rolls-Royce engine produces 1,565 kW (2,100 hp) vs. 1,410 kW (1,890 hp) for the contemporary GE T700C engine (at the time, that was a 210hp difference, per engine i.e. 420 hp total)

Oh, an communications upgrade, wouldn't that add to the price of £8.5 million then? So it isn't really £8.5 million then?

If the new ones are also going to be using RN flat decks, they need folding rotors and arctic capability (UK Marines within NATO traditionally are responsible for aiding the defence of the alliance Northern Flank, with Dutch marines i.e. Norway, Iceland). Something they may well have to refocus on in near future

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/artic...es-in-arctic-over-fears-of-russian-aggression

 

[C130]

Important deviations made by AgustaWestland from the U.S. Apache variants include changing to more powerful Rolls-Royce engines, and the addition of a folding blade assembly for use on naval ships

As I set: engine is offset
The Rolls-Royce engine produces 1,565 kW (2,100 hp) vs. 1,410 kW (1,890 hp) for the contemporary GE T700C engine (at the time, that was a 210hp difference, per engine i.e. 420 hp total)

Oh, an communications upgrade, wouldn't that add to the price of £8.5 million then? So it isn't really £8.5 million then?

If the new ones are also going to be using RN flat decks, they need folding rotors and arctic capability (UK Marines within NATO traditionally are responsible for aiding the defence of the alliance Northern Flank, with Dutch marines i.e. Norway, Iceland). Something they may well have to refocus on in near future

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/artic...es-in-arctic-over-fears-of-russian-aggression

that extra 200HP is nice, but I wouldn't say it's a game changer and worth the extra cost.



as for communications AH-64E will have Link 16 so it should be able to recieve and transmit to all allies with Link 16
so UK upgrade won't be needed after all
http://www.airrecognition.com/index...-apache-guardian-helicopter-lots-5-and-6.html


American Apache blades can be folded as well... it's no big deal


http://www.davisaircraftproducts.co...e-restraint-systems1/boeing-apache-ah-64.html

 

[Penguin]

that extra 200HP is nice, but I wouldn't say it's a game changer and worth the extra cost.



as for communications AH-64E will have Link 16 so it should be able to recieve and transmit to all allies with Link 16
so UK upgrade won't be needed after all
http://www.airrecognition.com/index...-apache-guardian-helicopter-lots-5-and-6.html


American Apache blades can be folded as well... it's no big deal


http://www.davisaircraftproducts.co...e-restraint-systems1/boeing-apache-ah-64.html

Rolls-Royce Turbomeca RTM322 is a turboshaft engine produced by Rolls-Royce Turbomeca Limited, a joint venture between Rolls-Royce plc and Turbomeca. The engine was designed to suit a wide range of military and commercial helicopter designs. It powers the AgustaWestland Apache, AgustaWestland AW101 (about 80% of AW101's use the engine, including all UKs Royal Navy HM-1 Merlins and RAF Merlins), NHIndustries NH90. So benefits of using RR engine to UK include standardization within the UK forces, and standarization with European and other NATO partners (AW-101: Canada, Denmark, Norway, Italy and Portugal. NH-90: Belgium, Netherlands, France, Germany, Spain, Greece) and EU (Finland, Sweden). I don't see neither the logistics savings nor the interoperability benefits counted.

Link 16 is a military tactical data exchange network (data link) used by US, NATO. With Link 16, military aircraft as well as ships and ground forces may exchange their tactical picture in near-real time. Link 16 also supports the exchange of text messages, imagery data and provides two channels of digital voice
The Bowman C4I system consists of a range of HF radio, VHF radio and UHF radio sets designed to provide secure integrated voice, data services to dismounted soldiers, individual vehicles and command HQs up to Division level. The complete contract involves more than 48,000 radios (excluding the 45,000 Personal Role Radios) and more than 30,000 computer terminals being installed in more than 30,000 platforms, together with the necessary training of around 75,000 Service personnel. The Bowman system is a fundamental part of the British Military, achieving a Network Enabled Capability, providing the carriers for the passage of data between the various software applications involved.
Bowman’s initial operating capability was delivered into service in March 2004, it was fully rolled out across the Armed Forces by the end of 2008 and is expected to continue in service until approximately 2026.
Not quite the same, I would think.

AH-64s of today can fold their rotor blades. However, it was only in November 2002, that the US Army asked Boeing to develop a system that would substantially reduce the time it takes to reassemble and have Apaches ready to fly after they roll off a transport. This blade fold system, produced by Boeing in Mesa, Ariz. [since mid 2003], speeds deployment of the Apaches shipped by cargo aircraft. WAH_64 was produced in the UK 1998–2004. Go figure how Boeing could develop and field it so quickly.
http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?do=main.textpost&id=c0c2e49d-7b45-47bb-baf9-3300baafc2ae

Funny you keep ignoring the non-mil costs (loosing part of your industial base, the societal cost of unemployment etc). A government cannot simply look at the military aspects only when it is using tax-payer money.

 

[Blue Marlin]

ahh the tories.....
i blame them. they go on about making jobs and yet send work abroad.
some people may know tata selling its steel business leaving 19000 jobs on the line. what do the tories do? they use swedish steel for the construction of the new ajax tanks.
agosta westland built those choppers and are only being upgraded to block 5 standard. which the work is being done abroad which is mad and ret@rded. a rumour out is that we may buy the tiger attack chopper from france and build them here, knowing the toies they will send them back to france upgraded.
no offence @Vauban .