What's new

40.000 civilians killed in Mosul

. .
Patrick Cockburn is one of the worst sources on the planet. Kurds (KRG) cannot be trusted either as they are enemies of Baghdad to put it mildly. I am talking about the Kurds in power.

40.000 is a way too high number.

Most sources put the number at 10.000 which is obviously still too high (ideally the number would be 0) but the nature of the operation and its length made this predictable.

Anyway it is known that Western media and for that matter local Arab media tends not to report civilian casualties in the fight against ISIS. The international coalition against ISIS in both Syria and Iraq have killed 100's if not a few 1000's civilians. The latter is much more realistic. Obviously it is a bit hypocritical that their lives matter so little and are so little spoken about compared to the victims of ISIS when there should be no difference but this is how the world has always been. Unjust.

The most important thing for Iraq is to win the military battle against ISIS (liberate/conquer the few remaining ISIS strongholds) and after that the real hard battle will be fought which is the battle of all battles - namely the social, economic, political, community etc. battle which will take years and it requires a change of policy and personal. Corruption remains high and other challenges (such as the allegiance of certain Shia militias to certain people in Iraq that have a certain allegiance to a certain regime in a certain country) etc. Whether this will happen is currently unlikely (quickly that is) but Al-Abadi is actively combating and working against the negative and self-destructing networks that Al-Maliki had built.

Regardless, the average Iraqi deserves 1000 times better lives and opportunities and hopefully the Iraqi government and people of importance (in Baghdad and locally) will be up for the job and hopefully fellow Arab countries and regimes will try to help Iraq as this is what most civilian Arabs want to, especially those living in the neighborhood. This goes for Syria, Yemen and every other country in conflict as all those conflicts impact the entire region and eventually the lives of ordinary people - maybe not directly for now but eventually or at some point.
 
.
It would have been better to leave the city to ISIS in perpetuum because....you know

Think of the children!
 
.
I disagree with you i think that figures like 40.000 are more realistic since especially western Mosul was systimatically destroyed by bombs and artillery. Imagine that many bodies are still under the rubble. The silence of global media(especially American media)is deafening about these crimes. Muslims that defend these policies should be ashamed for themselves since they indirectly support with their actions western countries committing acts of genocide in muslim countries that in turn boost global terrorism

It would have been better to leave the city to ISIS in perpetuum because....you know

Think of the children!

Western mentality is better eh? "Kill the children to help them have a better future"
 
.
I disagree with you i think that figures like 40.000 are more realistic since especially western Mosul was systimatically destroyed by bombs and artillery. Imagine that many bodies are still under the rubble. The silence of global media(especially American media)is deafening about these crimes. Muslims that defend these policies should be ashamed for themselves since they indirectly support with their actions western countries committing acts of genocide in muslim countries that in turn boost global terrorism



Western mentality is better eh? "Kill the children to help them have a better future"

You sound like a slightly pro-ISIS Western convert to Islam. The rhetoric sounds remarkably similar. No offense.

So just because I don't buy those 40.000 civilian (I have family from Iraq and relatives living in that country and I follow events in that country on a daily basis) casualties I am somehow supporting "Western acts"? I hope you realize that most of the fighting is done by local Iraqis. Westerners (US) are aiding the fight against ISIS from the air and a few advisers and reportedly/supposedly a few SOF.

Anyway did I not just write that I am against the hypocrisy of not reporting/downplaying civilian casualties in the fight against ISIS just because ISIS is fought against? I think I did exactly that.

Pre-2014, most of Mosul was an anti-Baghdad (read Al-Maliki) stronghold and many such people welcomed ISIS (directly and indirectly) but once they experienced what this ISIS is about from up close, only the hardliners are left supporting them. However that does not mean that the people of Mosul or other Sunni Arab regions of Iraq, have come to love various Iranian-regime sponsored Shia militias or religious Iraqi Shia political figures and parties. However there is much greater trust for the Iraqi army after Al-Abadi was elected and previously liberated areas of Iraq (Anbar, Salah ad-Din, Diyala etc.) have seen that this is not only talk but actually correct compared to the era under Al-Maliki when discrimination was indeed a serious thing. I would not claim that it was systematic but there was a lot of problems. There still are but it is a different story.

Whether another ISIS emerges or similar struggles continue in another fashion, is yet to be seen, which is why I have always talked about a combined effort that transcends the military aspect. It's yet to be seen whether this will succeed post-ISIS removal (as in them controlling entire regions and towns openly) but I am 100 times more hopeful under Al-Abadi than I was when the clown Al-Maliki was around.
 
. .
BTW the Iraqi state needs nationalism and secular state institutions. Religiously diverse nations (diverse in terms of sects) like Iraq need secular institutions in order to prevent group x or y from dominating and potentially, as in history, discriminating the other party and thus weakening the state and creating distrust and conflicts whose repercussions are still felt decades afterwards.

Iraqis are one of the most religious people in the region so whether the state is governed by secularism won't
matter de facto. However at least it will ensure what I described above not happening or at least having a lesser chance of succeeding.

Otherwise minorities will feel pressured or not at ease. In Iraq the Shia Arabs are the majority (60% of the population) and similarly the Syrian Sunni Arabs (75%) are the majority in Syria. Both those countries should be governed by secular systems that will not discriminate on minorities or certain groups due to sect.

In both Iraq (under Saddam) the Sunnis were overly represented in the government. Not because they were Sunni but because most of the leaders in Iraq were Sunnis - which they have always been BTW historically speaking as they were the most educated, cosmopolitan and well-off compared to the impoverished and densely populated rural South, tribal/regional ties are often stronger in Iraq and other Arab countries. Similarly under Al-Maliki.

Same story in Syria under Al-Assad. Here Alawites, despite barely numbering 10% of the population, are dominating almost the entire military, because the Al-Assad family is Alawite and from the Latakia region (Alawite stronghold of Syria) and because even pre-Ba'ath Syria rule, Alawites were dominating the military due to the military path being looked down upon by the Sunni Arab Damascan elite. Al-Assad (Senior) however allied himself with rich Sunni Arab merchant families and bureaucratic families (former Sunni Arab nobility and upper classes) which to this day remain relatively loyal. Similarly Al-Assad (senior) allied himself with the mostly rural/tribal Eastern Syria and the Bedouin tribes there. The latter helped end the Hama massacre in the early 1980's. Which meant that Al-Assad left Eastern Syria alone.

I honestly see no other solution in Yemen either. Ironically all 3 states have a history of secular institutions and sadly family dictatorships based on the military model/Soviet Union style dictatorships.

I would even say that this would be a good thing in KSA too as the various sects are even greater (Shafi'i, Maliki, Hanbali, Hanafi, Sufi), (Twelver, Zaydi, Ismaili) however most of them fall under the Sunni umbrella which makes it easier on paper. There is also, much more in KSA due to its size, the regional differences and tribal/clan differences. Ideally no community in KSA should feel threatened by other groups in the country, whether majority or minority, regardless of sect, regional origin, dialect etc. This way you create strong and stable states that cannot easily be used by outsiders to create trouble or by opportunists within.

This should be the main job of every Arab regime/government. Call it secularism or whatever. I don't care. It's not like Islam will disappear or that people stop being Muslim. I am talking about government rule here. No regime is following Islamic teachings anyway and they are using it (Islam) as a political tool for power like any other non-Arab state.

Ideally of course we would have meritocracy however this is dreaming whether in the Arab world, West or elsewhere. China might be close and surprise, surprise, they are generally doing very well despite the many challenges and despite having 1.3 billion people to pick from and a very homogenous country ethnically and religiously.

Obviously focus on education, healthcare, science, industrialization, infrastructure, improving state institutions and services should be the main goals to pursue but the fundament (state institutions) are key in this process otherwise nothing will occur.

The reason (among other) why GCC has done well, unlike similarly and EQUALLY resource rich (by large) counties in the region (Arab as non-Arab) and even not from the region at all (South America, Africa, Central Asia) is due to the key fundament (fundamentals) as I have described them being much more pronounced and well-defined than in countries such as Syria and Iraq. The differences, wither regional, sectarian, ethnic (in some regions and countries) have been embraced by large or downplayed, rather than exploited. Probably being an ethnically homogenous region (Arab - no "Kurdish problem" for instance) helped in this regard. Similarly we see the same in Egypt, Jordan, Libya, Tunisia etc.

Only in Algeria and Morocco do we have a somewhat similar divide like in Syria and Iraq ("Kurdish problem") which is the Arab-Berber "divide" but here we must not forget that Arabs and Berbers are cousins and almost identical people - especially the Arab-Berber community which is what most of Morocco (especially) and Algeria is.

Anyway I am not against multi-ethnic countries (entities - different from societies) but there is a reason why homogenous entities in the region, whether currently or in the recent past, are doing better than diverse or worse, diverse and recently constructed, states whether in the Arab world or Muslim world.

USA/Canada/Latin America/New world cannot be compared with the Arab world, West, Middle East where the oldest and most defined nation states are found.

This has also something to do with more recent history of Iraq and Syria and the foundation of those countries and which entities they were under the influence of in recent centuries. That's for another time.

Interesting discussion that more so-called scholars should be spending time on understanding and finding solutions for (probably most people in power are completely clueless about many of the issues that I have talked about which is sad - or otherwise I am underestimating them - probably) rather than nonsense discussions about who to support 1300 years ago and who was wrong and what not or what regime x or y t support over your country and how to destroy your country and people manual.

Luckily most people are educated and will keep becoming increasingly more educated and knowledgeable (even in the most isolated villages) and the internet and mass media will help ensuring this. However this process should occur quicker and once it has occurred it should result in tangible chances rather than the old story of "tomorrow it will change".
 
Last edited:
.
Ah yes. Now somehow complaining about mass casualties makes me an ISIS supporter. Which was ISIS worst crime? The camp Speicher massacre that killed 1700 people. Which was Saddams worst massacre? The Halabjah attack that killed 7000 people. Congratulations that Baghdad and their US allies managed to surpass in atrocities and terror both ISIS and Saddam. Beware though because next time it might be your city that could be carpet bombed by US planes. Since you accept this tactic in Iraq you must expect the same to happen to your city
 
.
Ah yes. Now somehow complaining about mass casualties makes me an ISIS supporter. Which was ISIS worst crime? The camp Speicher massacre that killed 1700 people. Which was Saddams worst massacre? The Halabjah attack that killed 7000 people. Congratulations that Baghdad and their US allies managed to surpass in atrocities and terror both ISIS and Saddam. Beware though because next time it might be your city that could be carpet bombed by US planes. Since you accept this tactic in Iraq you must expect the same to happen to your city

How do you clear an urban city the size of Mosul from an enemy like IS without civilian casualties?

Also it took over 7 months to clear Mosul, if the strategy was to flatten everything then it would be done in 1 month given the firepower we have on our side.
 
.
@SALMAN F

If you are willing to read my posts, kindly comment as someone currently based in the region (or are you still in the US)?

My priority is not the Arab diaspora (despite being part-time diaspora my time and maybe also in the future) but locals obviously.

I am curious to hear your views and how much they differ, if they do. And yes, I read Ali al-Wardi's main work as a 14 year old.:lol:


You are the senior here after all.
 
Last edited:
.
How do you clear an urban city the size of Mosul from an enemy like IS without civilian casualties?

Also it took over 7 months to clear Mosul, if the strategy was to flatten everything then it would be done in 1 month given the firepower we have on our side.

Alls well now. Terrorism is defeated and Iraq is united again. Oh wait! Kurds hold a referendum in a couple of months. Lets see what Baghdad will do to convince them to stay in Iraq. The "carpet bombing" option does not exist here because US planes has more chance to bomb Baghdad than Erbil
 
.
Alls well now. Terrorism is defeated and Iraq is united again. Oh wait! Kurds hold a referendum in a couple of months. Lets see what Baghdad will do to convince them to stay in Iraq. The "carpet bombing" option does not exist here because US planes has more chance to bomb Baghdad than Erbil

The Kurdish angle in Iraq is an atomic bomb in the making. Iraq will be split up among ethnic and religious lines and in fact already has. The Kurds are playing along nicely with the Western powers because they only care about their independence.

The common Iraqis will soon find out the cost of American occupation. ISIS, Abu Ghraib etc. was all just the tip of the iceberg. The cost is high. Very high indeed.
 
.
Alls well now. Terrorism is defeated and Iraq is united again. Oh wait! Kurds hold a referendum in a couple of months. Lets see what Baghdad will do to convince them to stay in Iraq. The "carpet bombing" option does not exist here because US planes has more chance to bomb Baghdad than Erbil

Oh! no one gives a shit about that referendum.
 
. .

Pakistan Defence Latest Posts

Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom