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36 Rafale, 3 squadrons of Su-30 MKI and LCA MK-II fighter jets to arm the IAF

Why is India buying only 36 of them?

There were several reasons. If you look at the evolution of the deal, there were several bottlenecks.

1. Interim Relief to the IAF - Depleting fast, the IAF raised the MMRCA requirement to fulfill its operational squadron strength of 39.5 which was revised to 42 looking at the Chinese air power in Tibet (see table below). Increasing the number of flyaway orders to 36 gives IAF the chance to maintain 1.5 operational squadrons, decreasing their dependence on HAL for rolling out the remaining lot. 2017 was the due date for decomissioning the oldest MiG-21 squadrons, hence it was imperative to induct and operationalize these squadrons.

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2. No Guarantee on HAL-built Rafales - Dassault was adamant that they could not provide the guarantee for the HAL-built Rafales, which would be manufactured under license at Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (or the subcontractor) which was the main stalemate.

3. G2G Route - The Defence Procurement Panel (DPP) which was the nodal authority on contract negotiations was in a to-and-fro negotiation for the final price fix and finer details of the contract. When there was no headway, back channeling was pursued with Paris to enable a Government-to-Government(G2G) route for finalizing the deal on NaMo's visit to France last week. This put the talks on fast track, both Dassault and IAF seem to have not met their expectations although, as it finally signalled the death of the much long lived MMRCA.

4. Offset Regulations - Dassault initially won the MMRCA contract due to the mandatory offset regulations clause of 50%. Although HAL would be the lead integrator according to the original RFP, Dassault was planning a 50% JV with Reliance to setup a supply chain in India. Dassault's JV with Reliance been declared for manufacturing business jets but it seemed to be actually for setting up a secondary assembly line for Rafale in India to supply for future orders which makes business sense.

this deal for 36 flyaway Rafale is only a stopgap measure, and a decision the government had to make to give the IAF relief. Subsequent negotiations on meeting the remaining requirements for IAF squadron strength might mean depending on increasing the LCA fleet strength or the Sukhoi-30 MKI count.

Another possible reason, though remote, was the government's policy to divest HAL as a non-performing PSU in the near future. To open up private participation in defence manufacturing, the government may boost the deal to manufacture the remaining aircraft in India. This means either renegotiating with Dassault for Rafale or Cassidian/EADS for Eurofighter since time is critical. Chances of reopening the tender are scarce. Only time will tell, how the remaining 90 fighters are bought.

While the economics of the deal is vital, it plays role in shaping India's aerospace industry. In finalizing the deal for the remaining purchase, the government must strive to meet the IAF's requirement, with a long-term view of making India self reliant in defence production. The Rafale is just the first step in doing that.
 
That will never happen in Modi watch.. No light fighter will be bought from abroad..
Your defence minister did point towards that option with Grippen and even the F-16 making some news.
 
Where? ..and $12 billion? Where have been....? They are talking about $8 billion for 36 planes, do the maths & add the costs of ToT and come to a figure....

ofcourse IAF can pay the cash.... if they don't have government would hae never started MMRCA with 12Billion deal in the first place that too when our defence budget was less than of what's today.. like i said we're not going to pay them full settlement...

No you're wrong... deal is between 5.5 - 7 billion not 8... and that includes weapon package, Lifetime circle costs.... considering MKIs service costs and availability... Rafale deal is much better option. We're not buying the tech so you can drop that...

Many people have the speculations that Parrikar is trying to squeeze the french to fall in his terms.. but i don't think so its going to work... we're the one who's getting squeezed while the costs go up little by little,... how many months its been since Modi announced to buy 36 Rafles vis G-G sale.. if he wants only to buy 36 and worried about the escalation of the cost then what's stopping him i sealing the deal??
 
Finally something sensible, leaving Rafale would mean LCA will not get the attention it requires. However if we look at the 42 sqdr requirement then Rafale is the ideal choice since LCAs would need time to be built.
 
ofcourse IAF can pay the cash.... if they don't have government would hae never started MMRCA with 12Billion deal in the first place that too when our defence budget was less than of what's today.. like i said we're not going to pay them full settlement...

No you're wrong... deal is between 5.5 - 7 billion not 8... and that includes weapon package, Lifetime circle costs.... considering MKIs service costs and availability... Rafale deal is much better option. We're not buying the tech so you can drop that...

Many people have the speculations that Parrikar is trying to squeeze the french to fall in his terms.. but i don't think so its going to work... we're the one who's getting squeezed while the costs go up little by little,... how many months its been since Modi announced to buy 36 Rafles vis G-G sale.. if he wants only to buy 36 and worried about the escalation of the cost then what's stopping him i sealing the deal??

IAF has no cash for the Rafale, maybe you should look at outlay for the IAF across the last several budgets. Regardless of whether the cost of 36 Rafale without ToT & manufacture in India etc... is $7 or 8 billion, it blows the $12 billion idea apart. It does not matter whether you pay only a portion, 10-15% of a deal every year that will cost about $20-30 billion is still more than the IAF can afford. Not like the Rafale is the only thing that the IAF will survive on, where would the money be for other purchases? The facts are all on the table & have been for a long time. I personally have been arguing this for the last 2 years. Rafale deal was always economic suicide, certainly was not affordable at the present time which was why the previous UPA did nothing but talk about it. With the fiscal situation still tight & cuts being made left, right & centre on all budgets, there was no way the Rafale deal was going to get a free pass. The army had its new mountain core budget cut drastically(even if temporarily), why do you think the IAF would be treated differently. No one asked the IAF to shortlist the most expensive planes if they wanted the numbers, they should have chosen wisely (also the MoD's fault). To ask for the same numbers after initially having asked for the M2k is never going to be tenable with a platform this expensive.

The fault was the MoD's & the IAF, they should have capped the offers to a predetermined limit - say $12 billion & asked for all offers to be made for that value. Maybe Rafale would have offered up only 60 Nos, the IAF could have decided then whether 60 rafales are better than 90-100 F-18's or 126 Gripens & even more F-16's. That would have been the sensible way to compare. No one compares a Toyota Fortuner with a Range Rover & picks the Range Rover on technical capabilities alone. The price & the budget available have to be considered.
 
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I agree with Oscar for once..

Rafael should be pegged at 36 now and maybe a follow on order of the same post 2020.

We have to induct tejas and make until mk2 comes.

Look at our navy they are building world class ships in India.

Airforce is a spoilt child.

Look at paf they have brought into thunder we need to buy into tejas.

Stop dreaming about Fgfa amca for decade.

Concentration now getting 120 tejss mk1/2
 
Instead you may see some single engine/light weight Western fighters being inducted to make up the shortages.

F 16 is vintage, so the remaining western fighter in that category is Gripen. SAAB offered its help in Tejas, so Gripen is out too. Tejas is prestige issue for Modi government for its Make in India program. I expect Tejas to be inducted in very large numbers in next 5 years.
 
1 it wont be 36 rafales onli minimum requirementis three full squads

2.all the Su30MKI in IAF very soon is going for a MLU which will have new engines,AESA based radar EW suite & self protection jammers

3.the 40 LCA already orderred are going to have be indian made AESA based Radar & EW suite

and that is till FGFA-AMCA-AURA combo becomes back bone of future IAF
 
I agree with Oscar for once..

Rafael should be pegged at 36 now and maybe a follow on order of the same post 2020.

We have to induct tejas and make until mk2 comes.

Look at our navy they are building world class ships in India.

Airforce is a spoilt child.

Look at paf they have brought into thunder we need to buy into tejas.

Stop dreaming about Fgfa amca for decade.

Concentration now getting 120 tejss mk1/2

This indeed is an opportunity for India to have its own Indian made fighters given that much of the funds that were set a side for Rafale are available for Tejas.

1 it wont be 36 rafales onli minimum requirementis three full squads

2.all the Su30MKI in IAF very soon is going for a MLU which will have new engines,AESA based radar EW suite & self protection jammers

3.the 40 LCA already orderred are going to have be indian made AESA based Radar & EW suite

and that is till FGFA-AMCA-AURA combo becomes back bone of future IAF

FGFA...i doubt that plane will be even see the light. Once done with Tejas, India should concentrate on AMCA.
 
This indeed is an opportunity for India to have its own Indian made fighters given that much of the funds that were set a side for Rafale are available for Tejas.



FGFA...i doubt that plane will be even see the light. Once done with Tejas, India should concentrate on AMCA.
there wont be any twin seater indo-russian just the MKIesd version of T-50

you are right about AMCA new DM is not much interested in LCA MK2 but its the AMCA what he wants on very fast track basis
 
F 16 is vintage, so the remaining western fighter in that category is Gripen. SAAB offered its help in Tejas, so Gripen is out too. Tejas is prestige issue for Modi government for its Make in India program. I expect Tejas to be inducted in very large numbers in next 5 years.


The F-16 line could have been moved to India & we could have used it to add numbers to our fleet at a relatively low price. We are really running in circles on this matter. We are obsessed with the numbers, logic would suggest that capabilities should reduce the requirement of numbers. Can't say that 100 mig 21's have to replaced with 100 Rafales. We need a big rethink of how exactly we want to go about this matter, how many light fighters we want to make up the numbers & how many more sophisticated planes we need.
 
The F-16 line could have been moved to India & we could have used it to add numbers to our fleet at a relatively low price. We are really running in circles on this matter. We are obsessed with the numbers, logic would suggest that capabilities should reduce the requirement of numbers. Can't say that 100 mig 21's have to replaced with 100 Rafales. We need a big rethink of how exactly we want to go about this matter, how many light fighters we want to make up the numbers & how many more sophisticated planes we need.
that could be very much possible if americans price it right ( second hand F16s with new engine and AESA based radar and EW suite) andagree not to attach "strings"we just might see 6 full squads of F16s in IAF
 
The F-16 line could have been moved to India & we could have used it to add numbers to our fleet at a relatively low price. We are really running in circles on this matter. We are obsessed with the numbers, logic would suggest that capabilities should reduce the requirement of numbers. Can't say that 100 mig 21's have to replaced with 100 Rafales. We need a big rethink of how exactly we want to go about this matter, how many light fighters we want to make up the numbers & how many more sophisticated planes we need.

Yes we need to have a strategy. Although looking very confusing now, This DM is making some headway there. It is commendable this DM thinks differently than his predecessors.
 
Yes we need to have a strategy. Although looking very confusing now, This DM is making some headway there. It is commendable this DM thinks differently than his predecessors.

Just look at it this way, the IAF wanted 126 Mirage 2k and now wants 126 Rafales........
 

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