31 killed as militants attack Pakistan army checkpost

[Marwat Khan Lodhi]

Ok..so Pakistan was such a darn fool that they wanted to covert Soviets into Muslims and fought such a risky,long and expensive war....and soviet union was such a darn fool they they spent so much on Afghanistan that they lost their USSR...
Now now that makes sense...

None of you have any leg to stand on...

You certainly lack grey matters. Pakistan didnt spend on afghan-soviet war, it was american and saudi money which was spent. Pakistan was not darn fool, it was a "chamcha" of america who actually benefited from this war. In the same way it is milking american dollors today and engaging it in afghanistan through its proxy talibans, it doesnt want america to leave afghanistan so soon.
And soviet union was not fool, they were unfortunate, they got trapped and didnt want to pull out their forces till the end because it was matter of their honour and pride as super power. Like british, the bear got trapped.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

what does ethnic mix have to do with this news of an attack on army post?
what people indulging into this debate and pursuing it are trying to achieve?

all I see is needless personal remarks and point scoring

I understand that you have pretty much exhausted the thread's subject matter

now why not open up a new thread if you find it compelling to continue the off topic debate?

 

[haviZsultan]

A lot of their moves did not make sense. Remember at the height of cold war it was just a numbers game..how many countries under Soviet bloc vs how many under US bloc.

Anyway I dont have much to add on this topic. I dont exactly remember the sources which T-Faz quoted in his long rebuttal. Maybe he will see this mention and will hopefully address your post.



Idiot there has been an official count and that is how the ISPR released the data in the first place. I am not telling this. ISPR is telling that. Does that even get into your thick head ? I'm merely quoting the Information Brief released by ISPR to counter the growing criticism of Punjabi monopoly on Army.




Just because the little frog in the well did not hear about it, does not make it as false. This is basically your premise. I have not heard it. So it cannot be true. :facepalm:

Why are you wasting time imposing your view on mine then?

I do not believe your statistics as ISPR simply does not possess the capability to do this. I requested ISPR and may get a response soon. Unless they don't choose to reply which they usually do which is why again I stated they are largely useless.

 

[Safriz]

You certainly lack grey matters. Pakistan didnt spend on afghan-soviet war, it was american and saudi money which was spent. Pakistan was not darn fool, it was a "chamcha" of america who actually benefited from this war. In the same way it is milking american dollors today and engaging it in afghanistan through its proxy talibans, it doesnt want america to leave afghanistan so soon.
And soviet union was not fool, they were unfortunate, they got trapped and didnt want to pull out their forces till the end because it was matter of their honour and pride as super power. Like british, the bear got trapped.

If Pakistan was Chamcha then Pushtoons were Stupid?
Nobody put a gun on their heads..why they let somebody use them..if you take it that way?

 

[Dillinger]

Ok..so Pakistan was such a darn fool that they wanted to covert Soviets into Muslims and fought such a risky,long and expensive war....and soviet union was such a darn fool they they spent so much on Afghanistan that they lost their USSR...
Now now that makes sense...

None of you have any leg to stand on...

Safriz Sir,

The answer to that is rather simple- Pakistan involved itself in the USSR-Afghan venture for the same reason it entered into the current WOT. Because it was in bed with America and because of the US-Saudi agenda for the region. After all everyone on this forum will agree that the WOT has been far more costly and directly devastating for Pakistan than the Afghan Jihad of yesteryear and yet Pakistan joined up with the kind of cooperation that the Americans could only dream of (surrendering control of airbases that too by a designated nuclear power...). After all just like you state as to what possible interest could Pakistan have had in entering the Afghan jihad if it wasn't to preempt a direct Soviet threat then similarly one should ask what strategic interest did Pakistan have in directly aiding the US in ousting the Taliban- the very people who didn't dare raise their eyes against the ISI and the Pakistani armed forces- from Afghanistan, who was going to enter Afghanistan and from there reach the warm waters of the Arabian sea this time? Let us not forget that in the 70s-80s Pakistan enjoyed unprecedented support from the US. The Americans designated Pakistan as a major non NATO ally and Pakistan found itself compelled to get involved in the Afghan Jihad- consequence of not doing so would have been to alienate the country which was not only a global power but the source of a vast majority of the Pakistani army's might. Pakistan's involvement in the Afghan jihad had nothing to do with protecting its territory from a Soviet invasion but rather it was a brilliant move (and one which worked for more than a decade+) to get rid of the socialist government in Afghanistan- a government that was stubbornly anti Pakistan- and install a regime/ruling org./government that owed its existence to Pakistan and ultimately only to Pakistan.

 

[haviZsultan]

what does ethnic mix have to do with this news of an attack on army post?
what people indulging into this debate and pursuing it are trying to achieve?

all I see is needless personal remarks and point scoring

I understand that you have pretty much exhausted the thread's subject matter

now why not open up a new thread if you find it compelling to continue the off topic debate?

Its largely inconsequential. It is also inconsequential what a person believes and when he is called a liar for believing what he believes and having dozens of sources for it then... its actually the other person who is trolling and provoking him.

On the topic I do believe Pashtuns must have a front-seat in this war and defeat the terrorists their way. They know the terrain and the geography... it should be up to them how to deal with this issue. I want them to have a larger role as I do the Baloch in Balochistan.

 

[Safriz]

On the topic I do believe Pashtuns must have a front-seat in this war and defeat the terrorists their way. They know the terrain and the geography... it should be up to them how to deal with this issue. I want them to have a larger role as I do the Baloch in Balochistan.

Yes and 10 year down the line they will again say that they were USED by Pakistan,as they say about Afghanistan,and that will start another string of grievances and another insurgency and WOT?

The thing is that there is a country called Pakistan..
But there is no Pakistani...
Whatever the residents (By choice or by chance) do for the country its their "Ihsaan" on "Pakistan" and effectively on every other ethnicity of Pakistan...
As a result every social,ethnic,regional,religious group thinks that they were used by the other and others owe them.

Its the same as Me,my brother and a few other people are on a Boat and the boat starts sinking,and together we save the boat..Now in this scenario who owes whom? and who used the other?
You decide..

 

[KRAIT]

what does ethnic mix have to do with this news of an attack on army post?
what people indulging into this debate and pursuing it are trying to achieve?
all I see is needless personal remarks and point scoring
I understand that you have pretty much exhausted the thread's subject matter
now why not open up a new thread if you find it compelling to continue the off topic debate?

Sir the thing is, when affluent and powerful section of society A uses a certain section B of society, oppress them, don't provide them necessary attributes for development, the section B section may go against section A. Sometimes it is through non-violent means and sometimes by violence. But when B retaliates, A cry foul instead of looking that its their wrong policies that created this situation.

In India, the lower castes, SC,ST,OBC were used by the higher castes for votes purposes. They were oppressed, denied of their rights like education, job opportunities and were treated as lower quality of human beings. Many of these lower castes started demanding rights and reservation. As they were good vote banks, they got reservation. Now the same lower caste is ruling over the higher caste. Higher caste competing hard whereas the reserved caste gets benefits. Now these upper caste cries foul. They didn't say anything when the lower castes were oppressed. Even lower castes are now held responsible for corruption etc. but it was the higher caste from which they learned. They got their rights by non-violent means.

Now in case of Maoists, it was a region of oppression by the State. They were denied of their fundamental rights, lack of education, financial security and development. State started confiscating their only source of income that is land, for mining purposes and others. Now, it became the matter of survival for these people as they didn't get anything or very less in return. Few picked up guns. People followed them. Violence increased and vicious circle got created.

It happened everywhere in the world. Problem is when these backward people retaliate (backward shouldn't be taken as offense, I just used it for explanation purpose), the upper class cries foul.

Don't take away their rights, provide them education, financial security and develop them. Don't let them have bullets instead of books. Don't kill their women and children.

It will take time but its the only way to solve disputes. Tribals are warrior class, they will retaliate with Violence.

Problem is people can't see what has happened to them.

 

[pakdefender]

Sir the thing is, when affluent and powerful section of society A uses a certain section B of society, oppress them, don't provide them necessary attributes for development, the section B section may go against section A. Sometimes it is through non-violent means and sometimes by violence. But when B retaliates, A cry foul instead of looking that its their wrong policies that created this situation.

In India, the lower castes, SC,ST,OBC were used by the higher castes for votes purposes. They were oppressed, denied of their rights like education, job opportunities and were treated as lower quality of human beings. Many of these lower castes started demanding rights and reservation. As they were good vote banks, they got reservation. Now the same lower caste is ruling over the higher caste. Higher caste competing hard whereas the reserved caste gets benefits. Now these upper caste cries foul. They didn't say anything when the lower castes were oppressed. Even lower castes are now held responsible for corruption etc. but it was the higher caste from which they learned. They got their rights by non-violent means.

Now in case of Maoists, it was a region of oppression by the State. They were denied of their fundamental rights, lack of education, financial security and development. State started confiscating their only source of income that is land, for mining purposes and others. Now, it became the matter of survival for these people as they didn't get anything or very less in return. Few picked up guns. People followed them. Violence increased and vicious circle got created.

It happened everywhere in the world. Problem is when these backward people retaliate (backward shouldn't be taken as offense, I just used it for explanation purpose), the upper class cries foul.

Don't take away their rights, provide them education, financial security and develop them. Don't let them have bullets instead of books. Don't kill their women and children.

It will take time but its the only way to solve disputes. Tribals are warrior class, they will retaliate with Violence.

Problem is people can't see what has happened to them.

Your analysis is incorrect in this context since the section of society in question here has had presidents ( Ishaq Khan ) , prime ministers ( M K Junejo ) , COAS ( Gen Waheed Kakar ) , Air Chief ( Ashghar Khan , Farooq Feroz Khan etc ) and countless other senior positions in the Army (Gen Yahya Khan, Gen Ali Kuli Khan , Gen Ali Muhmmmad Jan Orakzai etc etc) and in the bureaucracy.
The case here in the context of Pakistan wrt to this section of the society under question is more akin to 'my problem is everyone's problem , everyone’s problem is not my problem'

 

[KRAIT]

Your analysis is incorrect in this context since the section of society in question here has had presidents ( Ishaq Khan ) , prime ministers ( M K Junejo ) , COAS ( Gen Waheed Kakar ) , Air Chief ( Ashghar Khan , Farooq Feroz Khan etc ) and countless other senior positions in the Army (Gen Yahya Khan, Gen Ali Kuli Khan , Gen Ali Muhmmmad Jan Orakzai etc etc) and in the bureaucracy.The case here in the context of Pakistan wrt to this section of the society under question is more akin to 'my problem is everyone's problem , everyone’s problem is not my problem'

I am talking of an average person who lives in Tribal region.

I am not talking of few people who achieved. There are exceptions everywhere.

 

[haviZsultan]

Sir the thing is, when affluent and powerful section of society A uses a certain section B of society, oppress them, don't provide them necessary attributes for development, the section B section may go against section A. Sometimes it is through non-violent means and sometimes by violence. But when B retaliates, A cry foul instead of looking that its their wrong policies that created this situation.

Its not always that @KRAIT. It is that somehow we have begun thinking of ourselves as squabbling groups rather than as a nation. For example Indian army too is 15% Punjabi (majority sikhs-could be more cauz i used figure for Sikhs) when proportion is 2% of Punjabis as total population. It is that we have become animals.

For example you know my background. Those who moved here to Pakistan became known as muhajirs. Despite some Pashtun background at least if it exists that happened. But now even these migrants are assertive and hating on Pashtuns and others. But figures reveal another story. They may have a 13% share of the economy while making 8% of the population, 13,000 Rs higher GDP per capita than Punjabis and hold the most powerful positions-then what is the worry? (Source H&H research: think it was amjad sahab running the company)

So it isn't the Punjabi stealing the Baloch's bread, it is all of us collectively by not thinking about the other and for the other but as a squabbling divided nation. Ethnic nationalists curse me severely but they do not understand this simple thing. It is in our mindset that the issue lies. I argue for Pashtuns but I wasn't totally born one and my links to them are tenuous at best. Yet people may not understand the beauty of what I have done.

Ethnic politics has destroyed everything in the country and may destroy more. India's demography and political setup destroys ethnic politics in moments.

In India, the lower castes, SC,ST,OBC were used by the higher castes for votes purposes. They were oppressed, denied of their rights like education, job opportunities and were treated as lower quality of human beings. Many of these lower castes started demanding rights and reservation. As they were good vote banks, they got reservation. Now the same lower caste is ruling over the higher caste. Higher caste competing hard whereas the reserved caste gets benefits. Now these upper caste cries foul. They didn't say anything when the lower castes were oppressed. Even lower castes are now held responsible for corruption etc. but it was the higher caste from which they learned. They got their rights by non-violent means.

The situation has improved for Dalits as I noticed in a report earlier. There has to be the same for other groups as well. But that is off-topic.

Now in case of Maoists, it was a region of oppression by the State. They were denied of their fundamental rights, lack of education, financial security and development. State started confiscating their only source of income that is land, for mining purposes and others. Now, it became the matter of survival for these people as they didn't get anything or very less in return. Few picked up guns. People followed them. Violence increased and vicious circle got created.

I think Pakistan should learn something here. India never used gunship helecoptors, airstrikes, drones, artillery bombardment nor launched indefinite curfews that were poorly declared. Pakistan is not advocating its own interests however.

It happened everywhere in the world. Problem is when these backward people retaliate (backward shouldn't be taken as offense, I just used it for explanation purpose), the upper class cries foul.

I agree. Its our fault and we have made mistakes. The real issue is with us who have made mistakes rather than the minor mistakes the tribesmen made. They were the pawns of the state in 1980's though I do not believe this is the case today.

Don't take away their rights, provide them education, financial security and develop them. Don't let them have bullets instead of books. Don't kill their women and children.

A1 advice Krait. I really respect you as a poster after this. We gave them the guns which they had today and established the arms industry to be as good as it is now.

It will take time but its the only way to solve disputes. Tribals are warrior class, they will retaliate with Violence.

Problem is people can't see what has happened to them.

There is a custom that was dying down. It was called Badal-which means taking revenge. It is part of Pashtunwali the tenets Pashtuns are to follow. Most of us understand it is from the past which made us great conquerors (I identify as Pakistani first and last then Pashtun as I said before) but is not needed now but atrocities in WOT caused a lot of losses and killings. It sparked a war and now everyone seeks to take revenge. A huge group of fighters lost loved ones in airstrikes and artillery barrages. It causes discomfort when I say this and people don't like it but it is a truth. I want Hakimullah and Wali dead (commanders of the Taliban) but I know we have failed. It is time to try out a new policy. Even take tips from India on counter-insurgency. Even Kashmir is boiling no more.

There are many reasons to sympathize with the Pashtun. Only ethnic chauvinism is a reason to hate them. They are beautiful people as I realized and will give their own kameez to the poor while having nothing to drape their skin themselves. I posted this long ago:

I will give you a simple example. I adopted Pashtun culture and ways and know rudimentary Pashto-but when speaking people can tell i am not Pashto speaker by birth. When I spoke Pashto to driver in Karachi some months ago... he looked at me totally surprised. He was shocked and goes like "talo pashto razi!!!" (You know Pashto?)... he knew how our families were and had been hearing abuse like "tum pathano key paas aqal toh hoti nahi hai" and things like "jahil insaan, gari roko, ismein car-bomb nahi hai jo tum jakay takra do kahim say"... this is basically how our khandaan behaves around non-muhajirs. When I spoke Pashto which was clearly weak I won his respect.



Aap toh bulkul hamaray tarah pathan hai, aap ney hamara dil jeet liya.... He said smiling. Now he always treats me with total reverence. If we show respect and goodwill to people they will respect us. Simple as that. In moments I became a Pashtun despite my comparitively pathetic Pashto but we don't have this kind of mentality. One day he comes by and gifts about 20-30 books on Pashto language and literature which must have cost him at least 1000-2000 rupees when he is earning about 12,000 monthly. I wanted to give him money but he refused. He promised me support for the Pakistan Nationalist party which unfortunately isn't in existence yet but is a personal dream. This is how you unite people. By being a racist you divide and create ill-will between communities and even on this thread you see it... one abusive comment to an ethnic group and you set off a war. Think how easy it is to do the same.

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/nation...cussion-muhajir-identity-9.html#ixzz2JsGmmcsF

 

[pakdefender]

I am talking of an average person who lives in Tribal region.

I am not talking of few people who achieved. There are exceptions everywhere.

lol @ 'exceptions' , the pathan representation in all walks of life of Pakistan is much higher than their %age population.
When someone from Baluchistan raises a voice about not having opportunities one can lend a sympathetic ear to that because one can see that in our universities, in government offices , in whatever Pakistan has to offer it’s not a common sight to see someone from Baluchistan in a high up position.

BUT the same is not true for these 'Qabaili' terrorists and their kin, they have had more than their fair share of whatever Pakistan has to offer, in fact they have been taking more and more without giving much back, the phuddu narrative of ‘qabilion ku samajhnay ki zarrorat ha and they need this and that’ is fast losing its ground as more and more people find out the truth that there is something very wrong with the thinking and actions of the people from that part of our country.

 

[Marwat Khan Lodhi]

lol @ 'exceptions' , the pathan representation in all walks of life of Pakistan is much higher than their %age population.
When someone from Baluchistan raises a voice about not having opportunities one can lend a sympathetic ear to that because one can see that in our universities, in government offices , in whatever Pakistan has to offer it¡¯s not a common sight to see someone from Baluchistan in a high up position.

BUT the same is not true for these 'Qabaili' terrorists and their kin, they have had more than their fair share of whatever Pakistan has to offer, in fact they have been taking more and more without giving much back, the phuddu narrative of ¡®qabilion ku samajhnay ki zarrorat ha and they need this and that¡¯ is fast losing its ground as more and more people find out the truth that there is something very wrong with the thinking and actions of the people from that part of our country.

Are you from karachi?

 

[Edevelop]

inalillahi wainalilahe rajeon.

 

[pakdefender]

Are you from karachi?

By asking this question you are demonstrating the flaw in your thought process, but just so you know Im from Lahore