27 Feb 19: PAF shot down two Indian aircrafts inside Pakistani airspace: DG ISPR

[Rafi]

What has happened yesterday. Minute by Minute details 9:52 AM – Indian Netra and Northern Air command detected ten F16 took off from 3 Airbases from Pakistan. They came in 3 groups and merged in attack formation near Azad Kashmir. 9:54: AM – India scrambled 2 Mig21 bisons and 4 Sukoi MKi to intercept 10 PAK F16
9.58 AM – India sounded alert to PAF fighters that, you are about to encroach Indian air space. Please evade.

9.59 AM – India sounded alert # 2 to PAF with IFAC protocols and they didn’t respond 10:00 AM - PAF violates Indian airspace. With Swarm merge attack formation (which is tactical in nature)

10:01 AM - Nine F16 forced to deviate path and within 1 KM of airspace they returned to Azad Kashmir side after heavy surface to air ground artillery and valiant fight from our Sukoi and Migs.

10:02 AM - One PAK F16 went deep inside Indian territory probably 3 KMs to destroy an Oil storage at an army brigade HQ
10:03 AM – One IAF Sukoi and one Mig 21 Bison Wg Cdr Abhinandan Varthaman) continued engaging the F16 in a dog fight maneuver called “Defensive split”. Mig 21 was in the front, then F16 and then a sukoi. Due to firing from sukoi, F16 flee the scene using a dog fight maneuver called “wingover”.

10:04 AM – Sukoi hovered around oil field guarding it and Mig 21 Bison (Wg Cdr Abhinandan) chased F16 out of Indian territory. While chasing he engaged F16 in a lock-in position for his onboard R-73 air to air missile to be deployed. Here you have to applaud the courage of Abhinandan. He could have returned to base. But if he returns to base then the missile lock in would have been disengaged (due to out of radar coverage) and he will not be able to shoot F16 down. So he decided to chase him down to Azad Kashmir and shoot him down. 10:08 AM – He engaged his R73 missile that hit the F16 and drowned him

10:08 AM – After shooting him down he performed a highly dangerous maneuver called “High-g barrel roll”. He had to do this because he had been in the vicinity of PAK surface to air artillery and SAM. While doing so he has to vertically climb at high speed and reverse its direction towards India. While doing so his old outdated Mig 21 bison’s engine thrust had a problem and he became almost non-maneuverable for few secs. And during that time either a SAM or air artillery hit his plane. So people should understand what has happened. Not upgrading or replacing the ageing jets and just upgrading radar and avionics doesn’t give you the edge. It requires a huge piloting skills, ability and courage to drown a F16 with a Mig21. So salute to Abhinandan!

Dude, please stop it's getting embarrassing now, even we feel sorry for you.

 

[Shabi1]

Issue on SU-30 will not be cleared anytime soon, so we shouldn't waste time on the trolls. There are two ways PAF can provide proof to the Indians. Both proofs will without doubt escalate the situation as will cause uproar in India so Im very sure PM Imran Khan won't allow. Ive come to know that Pakistan is deliberately holding back other engagement details to prevent war mongers, which would be un responsible of me to share as well, I believe same case here. Also Pakistani people are not pressuring the government on this so no urgency.

1. Show the pilots that DG ISPR initially claimed admitted to CMH for injuries. Likely the pilots have passed away and we have their bodies, as initial reports were for very injured. Indians will claim Pakistani mob killed it's own pilot but that is very absurd, if crowds were so uncontrollable WC Abhi would have been killed too. There is no precedent of uncontrollable mobs here, people would have first probed to ascertain the down pilots origin. Plus if you watch the interviews people were smart enough to make him think he landed inside Indian territory so he could be apprehended. Seeing how Pakistan is doing whatever it can to not escalate the situation this is a big no no at the moment.

2. Show HUD and communications footage of the engagement. This seems unlikely at the moment as it will risk leakage of tactics which we might need to employ again. Maybe after some months or years they will be revealed.

However if India has similar proof at it's end it would have shared already as it is what it's public needs to regain lost morale. And nothing keeping them from not sharing.

So talking on SU-30MKI or XXX is just a waste of time at the moment.

Now I have some points on the aircraft that is confirmed to be downed. Need your comments.

1. Why did InAF deploy the Mig-21 Bison in such a hot zone. It is a good interceptor but when you know you are in a conflict situation you should plan and deploy your most capable CAP assets eg SU-30s, Mig-29s etc. Surely InAF planners are not idiots. Even PAF withdrew F-7PGs and re allocated fighters so JF-17s and F-16s are more likely to see action. The Aim-120 Indians are parading is probably from when PAF engaged InAF 3 times the day before.

2. Where was WC Abhi's wing man. Should have been on a Mig-21 as well. He should have avenged his wing man as long as he had fuel and missiles.

3. Why was WC Abhi, a SU-30 pilot flying a Mig-21. We know PAF moves its most experienced pilots from F-16s to JF-17s, since they have better weapon package options but move from a SU-30 to Mig-21 is a downgrade or a punishment and a waste since InAF does have a pilot to aircraft ratio shortness.

Possible reason, just an Idea which I am throwing around. WC Abhi is a SU-30 pilot but on that day because of availability his SU-30 was not cleared to fly so he being also certified for Mig-21 took off for CAP on a Mig-21 instead, while his wingmen were on their SU-30. This being plausible since the SU-30 has a bad reputation for availability rate. His wingman being a SU-30 also got shot down so he didnt have backup to avenge him. By the time InAF hot scrambles were available PAF was out of the area.

What are your takes on this theory.

 

[Oracle]

 

[CriticalThought]

Issue on SU-30 will not be cleared anytime soon, so we shouldn't waste time on the trolls. There are two ways PAF can provide proof to the Indians. Both proofs will without doubt escalate the situation as will cause uproar in India so Im very sure PM Imran Khan won't allow. Ive come to know that Pakistan is deliberately holding back other engagement details to prevent war mongers, which would be un responsible of me to share as well, I believe same case here. Also Pakistani people are not pressuring the government on this so no urgency.

1. Show the pilots that DG ISPR initially claimed admitted to CMH for injuries. Likely the pilots have passed away and we have their bodies, as initial reports were for very injured. Indians will claim Pakistani mob killed it's own pilot but that is very absurd, if crowds were so uncontrollable WC Abhi would have been killed too. There is no precedent of uncontrollable mobs here, people would have first probed to ascertain the down pilots origin. Plus if you watch the interviews people were smart enough to make him think he landed inside Indian territory so he could be apprehended. Seeing how Pakistan is doing whatever it can to not escalate the situation this is a big no no at the moment.

2. Show HUD and communications footage of the engagement. This seems unlikely at the moment as it will risk leakage of tactics which we might need to employ again. Maybe after some months or years they will be revealed.

However if India has similar proof at it's end it would have shared already as it is what it's public needs to regain lost morale. And nothing keeping them from not sharing.

So talking on SU-30MKI or XXX is just a waste of time at the moment.

Now I have some points on the aircraft that is confirmed to be downed. Need your comments.

1. Why did InAF deploy the Mig-21 Bison in such a hot zone. It is a good interceptor but when you know you are in a conflict situation you should plan and deploy your most capable CAP assets eg SU-30s, Mig-29s etc. Surely InAF planners are not idiots. Even PAF withdrew F-7PGs and re allocated fighters so JF-17s and F-16s are more likely to see action. The Aim-120 Indians are parading is probably from when PAF engaged InAF 3 times the day before.

2. Where was WC Abhi's wing man. Should have been on a Mig-21 as well. He should have avenged his wing man as long as he had fuel and missiles.

3. Why was WC Abhi, a SU-30 pilot flying a Mig-21. We know PAF moves its most experienced pilots from F-16s to JF-17s, since they have better weapon package options but move from a SU-30 to Mig-21 is a downgrade or a punishment and a waste since InAF does have a pilot to aircraft ratio shortness.

Possible reason, just an Idea which I am throwing around. WC Abhi is a SU-30 pilot but on that day because of availability his SU-30 was not cleared to fly so he being also certified for Mig-21 took off for CAP on a Mig-21 instead while his wingmen were on their SU-30. His wingman being a SU-30 also got shot down so he didnt have backup to avenge him. By the time InAF hot scrambles were available PAF was out of the area.

What are your takes on this theory.

Some decent theories here. Let's be clear. Mig-21 is the point interceptor in IAF and given what Indians spout here, they do have a high opinion of the upgraded version. So it could have been a tactical miscalculation as well. A Su-30 pilot flying Mig-21 would mean there were no other Flankers available. That would be strange given the size of their inventory.

Every airforce devises strategies based on available inventory. So, IAF also has strategies involving Mig-21 as a point interceptor. These strategies are tested in wartime and the IAF simply tested theirs and found it lacking. They will probably go back to the drawing board now and rework them. We should be prepared.

 

[Shabi1]

They have a sizable inventory but it's no secret the SU-30 has a bad reputation for availability rate.

 

[Republic]

Some decent theories here. Let's be clear. Mig-21 is the point interceptor in IAF and given what Indians spout here, they do have a high opinion of the upgraded version. So it could have been a tactical miscalculation as well. A Su-30 pilot flying Mig-21 would mean there were no other Flankers available. That would be strange given the size of their inventory.

Every airforce devises strategies based on available inventory. So, IAF also has strategies involving Mig-21 as a point interceptor. These strategies are tested in wartime and the IAF simply tested theirs and found it lacking. They will probably go back to the drawing board now and rework them. We should be prepared.

India can not afford to remove it's best weapon from China border, no matter what.
So it have to use some Sukhois and most of Mig 21s at Western front considering Pakistan also don't have much advanced crofts.

Pakistan don't have any threat on its western border, so it can deploy it's best weaponry at Indian border.

That's why you will see a mix of more migs and few Sukhois in confrontation with Pakistan.

 

[CriticalThought]

They have a sizable inventory but it's no secret the SU-30 has a bad reputation for availability rate.

See the reply from Republic above. It could also be a force preservation strategy. Let PAF clock hours on their aircraft (which are fewer in numbers) and study their tactics. Then bring your own top of the line aircrafts to the battle.

It would be a strategic mistake on PAF's part to engage in a lengthy battle of attrition. They should force Indian hand through missile strikes against IAF bases.

 

[Shabi1]

See the reply from Republic above. It could also be a force preservation strategy. Let PAF clock hours on their aircraft (which are fewer in numbers) and study their tactics. Then bring your own top of the line aircrafts to the battle.

It would be a strategic mistake on PAF's part to engage in a lengthy battle of attrition. They should force Indian hand through missile strikes against IAF bases.

Turned out to be a terrible miscalculation

 

[SQ8]

See the reply from Republic above. It could also be a force preservation strategy. Let PAF clock hours on their aircraft (which are fewer in numbers) and study their tactics. Then bring your own top of the line aircrafts to the battle.

It would be a strategic mistake on PAF's part to engage in a lengthy battle of attrition. They should force Indian hand through missile strikes against IAF bases.

A bit of both, they sent their prime strike force (upgraded M2Ks) at Balakot but at the danger of being intercepted and shot down somehow blew the targeting off a fairly accurate weapon(some don’t seem to have even armed properly).

The PAF surprised them with tenacity and cooridnated ESM so you can expect they are scrambling to their Israeli and Russian liasons to divise new tactics.

Their next move prior to the pilot’s release was to adjust their ECCM and ESM tactics for a much larger strike mirroring their recent air force exercises in coordination with a Brahmos strike by the IA but that is essentially a call to war and any force attrition to the PAF more than 30% and the final weapons would be pulled out of storage and mated to their launch platforms in Pakistan.

The IAF can(or could have as now world players have stepped in to resolve the issue) strike back very hard and surprise us as well, but it has massive diplomatic and real world doomsday implications that leave it confounded.
In the end, despite Bipin Rawats hot air of calling our bluff, his “banyain” is soaked with sweat.

Less said the better of Modi -
The actual enemy of the Indian state (not current government but state- skeleton - fabric) is their media and Hindu extremism.

Frankly, they did the job for us more than any AMRAAM could.

 

[NA71]

Newbie

• Posts: 1
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03 Mar 2019, 03:57

Update: This first video has been debunked as doctored by the expert in India who debunked Indian media's own theory of F16 being shot down so he is likely trying to put out the truth.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1101917182286544899

A short video has been posted on youtube which apparently shows a single engine jet chasing a dual engine jet. It could be a F16 chasing a F15 or as the video claims a JF17 chasing a Su30. Pakistan does not have any dual engine jets so it definitely cannot be a Pakistani mock dogfight. The chaser does look like JF17 but it could just be my mind playing with me.

Can experts here review and chime in. There is also another video circulating with wreckage being cleaned up on the Indian side. It is a mangled mess of metal but can anyone spot/identify the bird that crashed from the wreckage. I am attaching it with the post.

Edit: The video might be doctored in some way, or maybe the zoom in is from another source but cleverly shown cropped at the end to give it the appearance of the two desired planes. I will leave it to the experts.

Edit 2: There is a well known Indian news anchor who reported a Su 30 being shot down before even a Pakistani claimed it.

This was later retracted. The same Anchor then tried to put the story out that it was a F16 engine that Pakistanis showed, but the analyst sitting there debunked his own compatriot's theory.

https://twitter.com/BhittaniKhannnn/sta ... 5775425536

^^ This last video clip is worth watching for Aviation fans.
http://www.f-16.net/forum/download/file.php?id=29726

further on F-16.NET a member said"

Exactly, I have a side by side image of the crashed wreckage that they're claiming to be an F-16 and an actual PW-F100 engine on a USAF F-16. the Size difference is immense.
See here: viewtopic.php?f=37&t=55055&start=120

So far, their strongest claim to the F-16 shot down is the AMRAAM wreckage, when I told one of them that it could have come from a missile that missed, they told me that it was a WVR fight and that AMRAAMs are not intended for WVR.

I said that many of the AMRAAMs kills historically came from WVR shots and it is a very potent WVR weapon albeit more expensive. I was countered by saying Pakistan will not use it in WVR because they are poor.

Personally I am on India's side during this whole situation, I think it was right for them to bomb terrorist camps that were threatening their citizens. But now that they have lost an aircraft to the Pakistani's it seems that they let their nationalistic pride get the best of them. Every scrap of metal on the ground is an F-16 to them now.

 

[ZAC1]

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International besti

 

[ARMalik]

My question is Spice 2000 Missiles which India used have a high accuracy, some say 99%. How can these missile MISS their targets?? I still don't really get this - what could have stopped these missiles from reaching their targets?

 

[CriticalThought]

My question is Spice 2000 Missiles which India used have a high accuracy, some say 99%. How can these missile MISS their targets?? I still don't really get this - what could have stopped these missiles from reaching their targets?

This may have been their first use in hilly terrain.

 

[Moon]

My question is Spice 2000 Missiles which India used have a high accuracy, some say 99%. How can these missile MISS their targets?? I still don't really get this - what could have stopped these missiles from reaching their targets?

How about this:
What if there were no targets and the Indians are lying?

 

[ARMalik]

This may have been their first use in hilly terrain.

These missiles/bombs combine Satellite Navigation and Electro-optical guidance, and its targets can be changed and controlled inflight. hence it is extremely unlikely that these will miss their targets.

So all I am saying that something has happened due to which these bombs/missile have not reached their targets. Is there a counter measure to stop these bombs?