1st Indian Hawk Trainer crashes

[Keysersoze]

As far as Mig-29 is concerned according IAF only 13 have crashed which is not that bad with its two decades of deployment and one of the hard hitted by spare parts and engine problem on accounts of Soviet break up and faulty Hasty production standard adopted by soviets during their export.




Mr. Keyseroze, I failed to see what kind of significent difference did you seen in MKI and MK version.

But still MKI is a part of Sukhoi-30 which is being flown by the IAF I guess since 1996, morever familirity with Su-30MK have made IAF pilots competant enough to handle MKI more swiftly then ever before.




Yes recently because of their Tyre problem, but according to IAF chief many of MKI from only PUNE squadran have been grounded but that is not an big issue as compared to what we had in case of Mig-29 experience. Even something like F-15 inspite of having due care and world class maintenance services can be grounded in huge number then I don't think MKI is an big exception to it.

On the face of it, it is quite good to hear that IAF is taking due precaution in the prohibition of crashes and recent news of grounding some MKI is one such impeccable example of IAF's vigilance over spare parts issue.



So are you actually praying for MKI to meet with mishap? but also do keep in mind regarding saftey standard being adopted by IAF which has demonstrated dramatic reduction in aircraft crashes.

1)Hmmm wonder how it compares to other countries that have suffered embargoes? Almost three decades plus two embargoes? And not to mention combat sorties as well. Frankly its a poor record when compared to other countries.

2)Well if we listen to all the Indians the MKI is the best flying thing out there capable of shooting down x-wings and can fight off the death star. The reality is that it is a higher tech level to the previous models of aircraft which in turn would require higher maintenance levels. Also the airframes in question will be newer (or have gone a upgrade from the MK to MKI model) So will be relatively new. When HAL get hold of them then we'll see how great the maintenance is. Frankly the (reliable as far as we are concerned) reports of only a limited number of MKI's operational is not surprising.

At the end of the day you can't keep the much vaunted aircraft in the air and that says a lot. Bet they look pretty on the ground though........

Oh and to compare it to F-15's that have been in the air and regular combat for decades is spurious.

3) Not praying for anything actually. No need to pray for something that is inevitable I am afraid.

 

[JEFF]

1)Hmmm wonder how it compares to other countries that have suffered embargoes?

Although the pain that a particuler airforce need to suffer from both Embargo or spares maintnance issue, I don't think there is a signifcient difference between each other.

Almost three decades plus two embargoes? And not to mention combat sorties as well.

Even Mig-29 were involved in slogging itself in combact sorties, morever when they first purchased, there were very much Deficiencies being involved from start like faulty engine buidling of RD-33 in a rush as compared to embargoed aircraft.

Frankly its a poor record when compared to other countries.

Well technically speaking record is not too bad when there is a significent difference between their origin of their engine, avionics as well as various other components. Since western technology in all these aspects are way ahead of that their russian counterparts and hence it doesn't immediatly get unworkable with embargo.

2)Well if we listen to all the Indians the MKI is the best flying thing out there capable of shooting down x-wings and can fight off the death star.

Well you are not enforced to listen every other Indian about their viewpoint of MKI unless you are not a firm beliver of their own mind and hence you don't need to put an unspoken words like above within Indians mouth. It is the unmatchable technology that is being involved in it as far as adverseries in the region is concerned, it somehow makes it adornable.

The reality is that it is a higher tech level to the previous models of aircraft which in turn would require higher maintenance levels.

How does it so? even technologies incorporated in F/A-18EF( which in itself previous model aircraft) is of higher tech level, and their makers are claiming that there is very low level of maintanance and hence require very few portion of servicing hour.

Also the airframes in question will be newer (or have gone a upgrade from the MK to MKI model) So will be relatively new. When HAL get hold of them then we'll see how great the maintenance is.

Of course you are whole heartedly welcome to see how great the maintenance competence of the HAL is. Morever I can assure you that HAL would not left you disappointed when it has upgraded mishap prone aircraft like Mig-21 and now you can see the results of absolutley rare or no mishaps with its regard.

Frankly the (reliable as far as we are concerned) reports of only a limited number of MKI's operational is not surprising.

I think as far as Air chief of IAF atleast 60-70% of fleet is still operational, I guess this percentile of fleet is by no mean limited number of MKI.

At the end of the day you can't keep the much vaunted aircraft in the air and that says a lot. Bet they look pretty on the ground though........

I don't understand what does this mean vaunted?

Oh and to compare it to F-15's that have been in the air and regular combat for decades is spurious.

I never contested their past background, all I was saying was that when even mishap can bring their whole fleet to be grounded inspite of top of thel line maintance then I don't think issues with MKI are that great.

3) Not praying for anything actually.

Yes as far as our past record are concernd you may not be praying but incline to think like that, since it is natural to flaut current performance of particuler orgnisation and base our premise upon past performance.

No need to pray for something that is inevitable I am afraid.

Well those inevitablity now have steadily becoming things of past.

 

[Keysersoze]

Although the pain that a particuler airforce need to suffer from both Embargo or spares maintnance issue, I don't think there is a signifcient difference between each other.



Even Mig-29 were involved in slogging itself in combact sorties, morever when they first purchased, there were very much Deficiencies being involved from start like faulty engine buidling of RD-33 in a rush as compared to embargoed aircraft.



Well technically speaking record is not too bad when there is a significent difference between their origin of their engine, avionics as well as various other components. Since western technology in all these aspects are way ahead of that their russian counterparts and hence it doesn't immediatly get unworkable with embargo.





Well you are not enforced to listen every other Indian about their viewpoint of MKI unless you are not a firm beliver of their own mind and hence you don't need to put an unspoken words like above within Indians mouth. It is the unmatchable technology that is being involved in it as far as adverseries in the region is concerned, it somehow makes it adornable.





How does it so? even technologies incorporated in F/A-18EF( which in itself previous model aircraft) is of higher tech level, and their makers are claiming that there is very low level of maintanance and hence require very few portion of servicing hour.



Of course you are whole heartedly welcome to see how great the maintenance competence of the HAL is. Morever I can assure you that HAL would not left you disappointed when it has upgraded mishap prone aircraft like Mig-21 and now you can see the results of absolutley rare or no mishaps with its regard.



I think as far as Air chief of IAF atleast 60-70% of fleet is still operational, I guess this percentile of fleet is by no mean limited number of MKI.



I don't understand what does this mean vaunted?



I never contested their past background, all I was saying was that when even mishap can bring their whole fleet to be grounded inspite of top of thel line maintance then I don't think issues with MKI are that great.



Yes as far as our past record are concernd you may not be praying but incline to think like that, since it is natural to flaut current performance of particuler orgnisation and base our premise upon past performance.



Well those inevitablity now have steadily becoming things of past.

Let me point out a few things for you Jeff.

1)Having to ground a large part of your fleet in order to show your amazing abilities at maintenance isn't really the best tack to take. Using the 60-70% remark again does not hold water. What if the 60-70% of the aircraft is referring to the Avro 748 ,Antonov An-32 , Dornier Do 228 and the mig 21's?

2) The MIG-29's were purchased in the 80's and started failing in the 90's you can't use the excuse of poor manufacture for that one.

3)using the example of the F-18 again does not hold any water. The claims of the People at Boeing are no doubt true, but it presupposes that the operators actually KNOW how to maintain aircraft at a reasonable level in the first place. I am sure the claims are true of any airforce with a competent maintenance crews.
Again reducing the number of flights and grounding aircraft is not "success"

4)HAL have proven their "abilities" over time and i hope they continue with their "success"

 

[JEFF]

Let me point out a few things for you Jeff.

1)Having to ground a large part of your fleet in order to show your amazing abilities at maintenance isn't really the best tack to take.

Large part, what large part are you talking about? most of all I never expressed any amazing competence in it as well. In the last page ejaz has posted a link where it is clearly indicated that 60-70% of the fleet is still operational.

Using the 60-70% remark again does not hold water.

This is not my remarks rather the remarks of our airchief, I guess his words make to confirm as definetly there is some water over there.

What if the 60-70% of the aircraft is referring to the Avro 748 ,Antonov An-32 , Dornier Do 228 and the mig 21's?

Now this is a speculation, since as per what Ejaz has posted a article above, it is clearly indicated that according to airchief 60-70% of operational fleet is comprised of Sukhois as well.

2) The MIG-29's were purchased in the 80's and started failing in the 90's you can't use the excuse of poor manufacture for that one.

Then tell me what kind of an excuse should I use over here?
Should I come and say that pilots of those Mig-29 are immature and hence they are falling from the sky?

There are ample information being available on the net about various reasons behind mishaps as well as maintaince issues with Mig-29.

3)using the example of the F-18 again does not hold any water. The claims of the People at Boeing are no doubt true, but it presupposes that the operators actually KNOW how to maintain aircraft at a reasonable level in the first place. I am sure the claims are true of any airforce with a competent maintenance crews.

So you are more or less in agreement with me in this respect.

Again reducing the number of flights and grounding aircraft is not "success"

Now it depends upon doctrine, since the airforce which is quite subject to mishaps and maintance issue in the past must also have drawn some valid clauses to make their provisions in their doctrine as well.

4)HAL have proven their "abilities" over time and i hope they continue with their "success"

Courtsey!

 

[Ahassan]

f7pg's were inducted in 2002 still thr r no crashes of f7pg's!!!!!!!!

i think!!! please do correct me if iam wrong!!!

 

[fatman17]

f7pg's were inducted in 2002 still thr r no crashes of f7pg's!!!!!!!!

i think!!! please do correct me if iam wrong!!!

unfortunately, thats not true - there have been a number of accidents/crashes. details are given in the Notify Aircrashes section.

 

[rishisankaran]

I believe the number of sorties flown by Pakistan would be way low, ecspecially considering the current economic downturn.

Probably its better to use F-16 PC game for practice sorties.

He he he

 

[metalfalcon]

I believe the number of sorties flown by Pakistan would be way low, ecspecially considering the current economic downturn.

Probably its better to use F-16 PC game for practice sorties.

He he he

I think the Topic was about the crash of "1st Indian Hawk Trainer", Your Post show that you are really unaware about Facts and you have a perception that Pakistan's Economy is Really bad and we can't even afford to fly our Planes . You better Grow up.

We have been Running Our War Machinery Quite Effectively Since 1947 and still we have enough resources to Fly our Fighting Falcons simple is that.

 

[ejaz007]

Now this is a speculation, since as per what Ejaz has posted a article above, it is clearly indicated that according to airchief 60-70% of operational fleet is comprised of Sukhois as well.
Courtsey!

I doubt 60-70% of the operational fleet is comprised of Sukhois. You have around 100 (perhaps bit more) of them. IF this is your 60-70% of the operational fleet than IAF is in extremely serious situation.

As per your chief 60-70% of the fleet is operational. If this is taken as a general rule than perhaps 60 of the Sukhois are flying. This again speaks highly of your airforces capabilities. A system inducted in last decade is facing this problem guess what would be the state of older systems.

Despite sanctions for a decade PAF still managed to keep F-16's airworthy.

Now compare this with what your air force is doing and you shall have a better understanding of the professionalism of both air forces.

 

[ejaz007]

I believe the number of sorties flown by Pakistan would be way low, ecspecially considering the current economic downturn.

Probably its better to use F-16 PC game for practice sorties.

He he he

We have another retard on the forum.

 

[Salahadin]

I believe the number of sorties flown by Pakistan would be way low, ecspecially considering the current economic downturn.

Probably its better to use F-16 PC game for practice sorties.

He he he

Wake Up budy boy wet dream is over

 

[Contrarian]

Now compare this with what your air force is doing and you shall have a better understanding of the professionalism of both air forces.

Ofcourse, IAF is a thoroughly unprofessional airforce. PAF and IAF certainly cannot be compared. PAF is the embodiment of the pinnacle of a professional Airforce.