1971 war a RAW success?

[PlanetSoldier]

Aaah...then my quest continues ! Look at my profile pic...god knows I need one plus the deviated septum is a complete bi@tch during the winters !

P.S A Pakistani from Lahore is a complete Tharki - Yup..that sounds like us !

Ummm...don't worry, I got a solution for you. You don't need medical surgeon rather plaster of building constructor might do . Run to a nearby under construction building and have some plaster there from a rajmistri (construction labor) ...lolz.

 

[kalu_miah]

whatever happened in 1971 no body can change it now, all of us have some pieces of information but not the complete true story.I have one question here (if we suppose that independence of Bengal was necessary) why bengalis supported mukti bahni they should get freedom as all of us got from britain I mean politically. They supported mukti bahni , Bhutto and Yehya got the excuse to launch operation and as the situation became worse india jumped into the scene.

As far as I know then East Pakistan people and Mujib himself along with Awami League wanted autonomy along the 6 point demand, not complete independence:
Six point movement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The 6 points

1. The constitution should provide for a Federation of Pakistan in its true sense based on the Lahore Resolution and the parliamentary form of government with supremacy of a Legislature directly elected on the basis of universal adult franchise.
2. The federal government should deal with only two subjects: Defence and Foreign Affairs, and all other residual subjects should be vested in the federating states.
3. Two separate, but freely convertible currencies for two wings should be introduced; or if this is not feasible, there should be one currency for the whole country, but effective constitutional provisions should be introduced to stop the flight of capital from East to West Pakistan. Furthermore, a separate Banking Reserve should be established and separate fiscal and monetary policy be adopted for East Pakistan.
4. The power of taxation and revenue collection should be vested in the federating units and the federal centre would have no such power. The federation would be entitled to a share in the state taxes to meet its expenditures.
5. There should be two separate accounts for the foreign exchange earnings of the two wings; the foreign exchange requirements of the federal government should be met by the two wings equally or in a ratio to be fixed; indigenous products should move free of duty between the two wings, and the constitution should empower the units to establish trade links with foreign countries.
6. East Pakistan should have a separate militia or paramilitary force.

There were some Bihari killings before Operation Searchlight was started by Bhutto-Yahya, between March 1-25, 1971, but it was sporadic and not large scale. All parties should have come to a compromise. Even Mujib was ready to accept conditions given by Bhutto, but he changed his mind, because of hard-core Tajuddin, an Awami League leader, who we suspect was close to India and its RAW. The negotiation broke down. I cannot see why Bhutto could not accept the above conditions? Also, why Mujib could not compromise and accept what Butto wanted? And whatever happened Why Bhutto-Yahya had to give the go ahead for Operation Searchlight?

The prevailing mood among East Pakistan people changed overnight from autonomy to independence when Operation Searchlight was authorized and commenced on the night of March 25, 1971 (we call it the black night) as tanks started roaming in streets of Dhaka. Zia read the declaration of independence on March 26, which is our independence day.

Mukti Bahini, if elements of it was trained by RAW before 25th March, had little support among East Pakistan public before that day, but after the night of 25th March and Zia's declaration of independence, public support naturally went towards independence and Mukti Bahini, people no longer cared if it was trained by India or not. From that point on, out of necessity majority in East Pakistan looked towards India for help in our efforts for independence.

 

[kalu_miah]

self-deleted

 

[Indus Pakistan]

*

Yes, it was a RAW success. However in hindsight I cannot possibly thank RAW enough for ridding us of East Bengal. East Bengal is nothing but a over populated swamp that is just about struggling to stay above the seal level. God forbid the disaster they would face if the sea level even rises by 5 feet.

@Akmal I don't know about my English but I think my geography of east Bengal is better than your knowledge about Pakistan. This off course is in referance to the post made by you in the locked thread.

On the military front we had to contend with Indian attacks from the front and the traitorous Bengali's stabbing us in the back so it was indeed a miracle how long the small isoloated Pakistani Army lasted.

As a Pakistani my heart goes out to the son's of our soil who never came back to their mothers, having perished in the treacherous mud and swamps of Bengal. Mujib got his just desserts and learn't the meaning of 'treacery' only few years later.

The tragedy of 1971 is not that we lost east Bengal, hell we ought to celebrate that but that we lost good men and had to face the ignominy of surrender.

And any of you Pakistani's who have a soft spot for these Bengali's don't forget it could have been your dad, your grandad wearing that uniform of our army in East Bengal. It was our army that was ambushed and attacked while facing the Indian onslaught by the Bengali's.

I once read a account by an PA officer that he could not send out less than a company sized formation because anything smaller but get ambushed and chopped to pieces by these Bengali's working hand in hand with Indian's.

Before you guy's dare call these Bengali's brothers ask yourself this simple question. Does a brother despite problems ever invite and join a enemy to beat his fellow brother? And he did could ever be trusted again?

Now in 2012 it is almost a laugh seeing these Bengali's b*tching about their former blood brothers, the Indian's. At least with Indian's there was honesty. They were our enemies and vice versa but Bengali's?

Finally the only brothers Pakistan has is found in its acronym - P.A.K.iS.TAN.

Do you see a B there?

 

[saleen_s7]

*

Yes, it was a RAW success. However in hindsight I cannot possibly thank RAW enough for ridding us of East Bengal. East Bengal is nothing but a over populated swamp that is just about struggling to stay above the seal level. God forbid the disaster they would face if the sea level even rises by 5 feet.

@Akmal I don't know about my English but I think my geography of east Bengal is better than your knowledge about Pakistan. This off course is in referance to the post made by you in the locked thread.

On the military front we had to contend with Indian attacks from the front and the traitorous Bengali's stabbing us in the back so it was indeed a miracle how long the small isoloated Pakistani Army lasted.

As a Pakistani my heart goes out to the son's of our soil who never came back to their mothers, having perished in the treacherous mud and swamps of Bengal. Mujib got his just desserts and learn't the meaning of 'treacery' only few years later.

The tragedy of 1971 is not that we lost east Bengal, hell we ought to celebrate that but that we lost good men and had to face the ignominy of surrender.

And any of you Pakistani's who have a soft spot for these Bengali's don't forget it could have been your dad, your grandad wearing that uniform of our army in East Bengal. It was our army that was ambushed and attacked while facing the Indian onslaught by the Bengali's.

I once read a account by an PA officer that he could not send out less than a company sized formation because anything smaller but get ambushed and chopped to pieces by these Bengali's working hand in hand with Indian's.

Before you guy's dare call these Bengali's brothers ask yourself this simple question. Does a brother despite problems ever invite and join a enemy to beat his fellow brother? And he did could ever be trusted again?

Now in 2012 it is almost a laugh seeing these Bengali's b*tching about their former blood brothers, the Indian's. At least with Indian's there was honesty. They were our enemies and vice versa but Bengali's?

Finally the only brothers Pakistan has is found in its acronym - P.A.K.iS.TAN.

Do you see a B there?

Blaming the victims for their misery won't do you any good and as usual your mentality is refuses to see whats out there. You look through history though your own misguided eyes, where everyone else except yourself is a traitor. The genocide conducted by the Pakistani Army is considered on of the most gruesome genocides in the world. It is documented, international journalists, known intellectual, has written thousands of books about the atrocities commuted by your soldiers, which to this day your government official denies. But again, Pakistan also denied any knowledge about OBL and we all know how it worked out. So keep believeing your lies but the reality is however different.

 

[Dance]

The genocide conducted by the Pakistani Army is considered on of the most gruesome genocides in the world.

First of all thats been debunked many times and the estimates are exaggerated.

Secondly, most Pakistanis don't care about Bangladesh nor 1971. Musharraf apologized and its time for Bangladesh to move on because we moved on 41 years ago.

 

[kalu_miah]

First of all thats been debunked many times and the estimates are exaggerated.

Secondly, most Pakistanis don't care about Bangladesh nor 1971. Musharraf apologized and its time for Bangladesh to move on because we moved on 41 years ago.

Most of us have moved on, we are concentrated on our future. Some people who still bring up this "genocide" issue forget that in this civil war both Bengali's and Bihari's were killed and an accurate figure is still not there. We need a new neutral investigation to set the history right, so this nonsense of 3 million genocide is put to rest for good.

But why we have to bring up this unpleasant issue about 40 or 50/60 year old history, is that many of our population do not know RAW's involvement in this whole thing. And RAW is still affecting us badly. So the target here is not Pakistan, but RAW and its continued operation and involvement in Bangladesh. RAW is affecting Pakistan also as we speak, many of the disturbance, I believe has RAW hand, but that is not a topic of this thread.

 

[kalu_miah]

*

Yes, it was a RAW success. However in hindsight I cannot possibly thank RAW enough for ridding us of East Bengal. East Bengal is nothing but a over populated swamp that is just about struggling to stay above the seal level. God forbid the disaster they would face if the sea level even rises by 5 feet.

@Akmal I don't know about my English but I think my geography of east Bengal is better than your knowledge about Pakistan. This off course is in referance to the post made by you in the locked thread.

On the military front we had to contend with Indian attacks from the front and the traitorous Bengali's stabbing us in the back so it was indeed a miracle how long the small isoloated Pakistani Army lasted.

As a Pakistani my heart goes out to the son's of our soil who never came back to their mothers, having perished in the treacherous mud and swamps of Bengal. Mujib got his just desserts and learn't the meaning of 'treacery' only few years later.

The tragedy of 1971 is not that we lost east Bengal, hell we ought to celebrate that but that we lost good men and had to face the ignominy of surrender.

And any of you Pakistani's who have a soft spot for these Bengali's don't forget it could have been your dad, your grandad wearing that uniform of our army in East Bengal. It was our army that was ambushed and attacked while facing the Indian onslaught by the Bengali's.

I once read a account by an PA officer that he could not send out less than a company sized formation because anything smaller but get ambushed and chopped to pieces by these Bengali's working hand in hand with Indian's.

Before you guy's dare call these Bengali's brothers ask yourself this simple question. Does a brother despite problems ever invite and join a enemy to beat his fellow brother? And he did could ever be trusted again?

Now in 2012 it is almost a laugh seeing these Bengali's b*tching about their former blood brothers, the Indian's. At least with Indian's there was honesty. They were our enemies and vice versa but Bengali's?

Finally the only brothers Pakistan has is found in its acronym - P.A.K.iS.TAN.

Do you see a B there?

I understand and sympathize with your feeling. It was an unfortunate twist of history and mistake of our forefathers to accept a "moth eaten" Pakistan the way it happened with two parts. As we said many times, a 3 country solution would have been best.

Even in 1971, a bloody civil war could be avoided, I believe, if RAW hand was not there. We could probably get an amicable separation over time.

But this thing has already happened, mainly due to lack of maturity and foresight of leadership of both wings, like Bhutto-Yahya, Mujib-Tajuddin and of course RAW/India, which was manipulating events using their agents and helpers in Awami League. You can blame these people. We do not blame Pakistan masses for what happened, you also should not blame our masses. If you attack a people they fight back with whatever means they have, even getting help from a former enemy, making temporary friendship with them.

If we had an opposite situation, a Bengali Army was killing local people in West Pakistan, would your people not fight back with whatever means they have?

So I would ask you to be less emotional about history, bad things happen, we all move on. We all have our future to think about, instead of getting stuck in the past.

 

[Md Akmal]

*

" I once read a account by an PA officer that he could not send out less than a company sized formation because anything smaller but get ambushed and chopped to pieces by these Bengali's working hand in hand with Indian's."

@ Regarding this point I disgree with you. Pakistani fighters were not that bad. Yes there were some ambuses during the intinial resistance movement but then it was almost alright. It happens once the 2 Commando Battalion just reached from Pakistan at Chittagong where many died including the Commanding Officer. Again once the Pakistani Brigade moved to Chittagong they were ambushed at Kumira where many died.

@ Remember the war of 1971 in East Pakistan where not only Pakistan Army fought but there were many. Do you think that Bengalese did not supported the Pakistanise ? No ! yours idea is completely wrong. There were around 70/80 thousands paramilitary forces most of them were Bengalese. They were grouped as Rajakars, Al Badre and Al-Sams and even Mujahids.

@ There were around 25/26 Lac of Behris who whole heartedly supported the Pakistani cause and joined in the para-military forces.

@ Raja Tridev Rao of Chittagong Hill Tract and their whole para-forces supported the Pakistani cause.

@ The whole Brigade of Lal Denda of Mizuram was stationed at Rangamati and helped the Pakistan Army.

@ Many insurgents of Manipur and Urunachal provinces also help Pakistan army and they carried out lot of sabotage while the Indian Army marched towards East Pakistan.

@ A major section of Bengali population also had a soft corner for Pakistan Army.

@ My dear friend, a company of Pakistan army was a hell lot of thing in those days. I know only a Platoon (35) size Pakistan element delayed the advance of Indian Brigade for a 15 days. A coy size Pakistan Army used to control a three Thanas(Police Station) during the time of insurgency.

@ The problem was somewhere elses. You President Yahya Khan, your great Foreign minister Z A Butto could not lead the nation properly. After August 1971, they got enough time to re-organize the Eastern Wing. Why you people are blaming this poor General Niazi. He had done more than enough. He made from 3 Division to 5 Divisions though in a improvised way. Why your General followed the theme that " The Security of East Pakistan lies on the West" ???? My foot !!!!!!

@ Why your so called Hindustani officers almost lost the morale to fight in East Pakistan. Why your General Khadem Ali Reza blaming General Rahim as "Coward and Bhagura". This General Rahim was injured while returing from Chadpur. Niazi decided that Rahim to accompany with the Helicopters along with the women and children and Golds/money to Burma. Why you people are now blaming General Niazi that he used to do "Pan business" in thoses days in East Pakistan, what a shame !!!!! These points should have been buried ? Why it came in the press ? Why it came in the press that once Niazi was in Lahore he used to visit "Hira Mondi" and again he was also involved in sex in East Pakistan. Why a General has to say that he became pious in the crisis days of East Pakistan. It just need a common sense !!!!!!!!

 

[baldFish]

Mate, as a great admirer of Jinnah and someone who very proudly calls him 'Our Father', I'd stick with his Pakistan till the very end ! I fully, unequivocally support the Partition of India...I wouldn't have it any other way and I'm sure neither would the Indians. Having said that the thing is that for most of us Muslims out there words like 'the Shariah', 'Islamic Finance', 'Islamic Polity' weren't just fancy words...they meant a lot to us. As I have understood Jinnah, his conception of Pakistan was neither a 'Secular' state nor the 'Islamist' state that these Molvis (Religious Clerics) would have us believe but rather a pluralistic, democratic state where the Muslims will be able to protect, nurture and develop their Islamic Ideology for the better but at the same time Non-Muslims will not be made 'Second Class Citizens' - they'd enjoy the same rights and privileges as the rest of us with strong constitutional guarantees to ensure that they don't go from being 'religious minorities' to 'social and political minorities', a little like the orignial 'Constitution of Medina'! Unfortunately thats exactly what happened - We saved the Islamic Ideology but we neither nurtured nor developed it the way Iqbal wanted us to but we made every effort conceivable to be as hypocritical as humanly possible by using the name of Islam. Also we ended up reducing our 'Religious Minorities' to Second-Class citizenry and went one step further by shamelessly persecuting them at time. For that neither God, his Prophet or Jinnah and Iqbal would forgive us !

As for Balochistan : I dunno we've got resident Baloch here on PDF in the form of 'MastBalochi', 'PakistaniNationalist' and 'Irfan Baloch' who assert that neither the Army nor the FC is responsible for the extra-judicial killings in Balochistan and that the common Baloch, though very much desirous of greater provincial autonomy and development, has no desire to join hands with an organization (the BLA) that ends up killing many of their own kind ! However, I've also met Baloch who, though being Pro-Pakistan, are vehemently Anti-Pakistan Army and they in turn assert that unless the Government reigns in the Security Agencies the Province will be lost ! What is the truth ? I really don't know because one of our greatest faults of the past 65 years has been that we didn't incorporate Balochistan with the rest of Pakistan as well as we should have. However the good thing about the present is that you'd see the average Pakistani speaking up against the mistreatment of the Baloch People, the media going frenzy over any alleged Human Rights abuses....heck students in Karachi (and Lahore) even took to the streets to protest and collect donations to start development projects in Balochistan themselves.

the partition of indian, was among the worst things that could have happened, for hundreds of years muslims ruled india, and muslims got along mostly nicely with others, but if you put the context of tribal wars thats a different story, most of the wars back then were fought for land or revenue not in the name of religion, Jinnah took advantage of an old idea when he wasnt becoming the prime minister of india, the muslim league was never as popular as it was couple of years before the partition, it took a sentiment of the people and used it for their own power advantage, that being said jinnahs early demise only worsened the problem, he wasnt a hardcore mullah

 

[TopCat]

the partition of indian, was among the worst things that could have happened, for hundreds of years muslims ruled india, and muslims got along mostly nicely with others, but if you put the context of tribal wars thats a different story, most of the wars back then were fought for land or revenue not in the name of religion, Jinnah took advantage of an old idea when he wasnt becoming the prime minister of india, the muslim league was never as popular as it was couple of years before the partition, it took a sentiment of the people and used it for their own power advantage, that being said jinnahs early demise only worsened the problem, he wasnt a hardcore mullah

In the global context, yes it is specially a significant number of Muslim remained in India as a minority. The partition did not bring any answer to them.

But for backward East Bengal, it did bring enormous benefit after 1971 war. If we did not depart from Pakistan then 1947 partition benefit would had been nullified and BD would had remained as a easy backyard for exploitation.

 

[TopCat]

Most of us have moved on, we are concentrated on our future. Some people who still bring up this "genocide" issue forget that in this civil war both Bengali's and Bihari's were killed and an accurate figure is still not there. We need a new neutral investigation to set the history right, so this nonsense of 3 million genocide is put to rest for good.

But why we have to bring up this unpleasant issue about 40 or 50/60 year old history, is that many of our population do not know RAW's involvement in this whole thing. And RAW is still affecting us badly. So the target here is not Pakistan, but RAW and its continued operation and involvement in Bangladesh. RAW is affecting Pakistan also as we speak, many of the disturbance, I believe has RAW hand, but that is not a topic of this thread.

In one fine morning you just discovered that in 1971 RAW was involved??? Did you know that its not only RAW but the whole Indian army got involved in that? Do you know that even USA/USSR also came along? Dude, get a life.

 

[baldFish]

In the global context, yes it is specially a significant number of Muslim remained in India as a minority. The partition did not bring any answer to them.

But for backward East Bengal, it did bring enormous benefit after 1971 war. If we did not depart from Pakistan then 1947 partition benefit would had been nullified and BD would had remained as a easy backyard for exploitation.

during the era of aurongozeb bengal was a very affluent province, i wonder what happened that we went downhill, now we are in the realm of speculation a lot of things could have happened, lets partition didnt happen india might have fragmented back into little states again... too be honest with I dont see prosperity coming to bengal unless the bnp and awami league goes extinct

In one fine morning you just discovered that in 1971 RAW was involved??? Did you know that its not only RAW but the whole Indian army got involved in that? Do you know that even USA/USSR also came along? Dude, get a life.

in this forum i see people giving raw way too much credit some times its along the lines of aliens building the pyramids and not ancient egptians, how can ancient man build so accurately, it must be the work of some super natural force.

 

[Armstrong]

the partition of indian, was among the worst things that could have happened, for hundreds of years muslims ruled india, and muslims got along mostly nicely with others, but if you put the context of tribal wars thats a different story, most of the wars back then were fought for land or revenue not in the name of religion, Jinnah took advantage of an old idea when he wasnt becoming the prime minister of india, the muslim league was never as popular as it was couple of years before the partition, it took a sentiment of the people and used it for their own power advantage, that being said jinnahs early demise only worsened the problem, he wasnt a hardcore mullah

Any other solution would have brought us to greater ruin ! In a Westminster style democracy where 'Our' vote have been reduced to a mere 4th of the population with 3/4th of the votes in a majority Hindu hands would have made us permanent minorities in a United India; add to that many of our customs and traditions, our practices and religious beliefs, our heroes and enemies were so different that our respective communities would have been forever at loggerheads with each other. The greatest proof of these differences and the ensuing animosity were the months preceding and succeeding '47 where millions butchered each other ! Any other solution to the Indian Problem would have resulted in even more blood shed for we would have had a bloody exemplification of Huntington's 'Clash of Civilizations' right here in our subcontinent ! And neither Jinnah nor the Muslims latched onto a 'novel' idea they gave the Quaid their unflinching support after what they had experience first-hand during the Congress Rule of (I think !) 37-39; I do suggest that you ask some of your elders (if you are a Bangladeshi) from that time and obtain a first hand account of how pronounced the differences between our two communities were. Secondly to assert that a man who gave up his love (Ruttie), his daughter's love, his political career in the Congress (he would have eaten up all these Nehrus and Patels very easily), his career as a leading barrister in Bombay, have his character assassinated so many times by the Indian Press, loose his health and finally his life because of 'TB' that he'd be suffering for so many years, that such a man did all of that for blind ambition is frankly insulting !

 

[TopCat]

Any other solution would have brought us to greater ruin ! In a Westminster style democracy where 'Our' vote have been reduced to a mere 4th of the population with 3/4th of the votes in a majority Hindu hands would have made us permanent minorities in a United India; add to that many of our customs and traditions, our practices and religious beliefs, our heroes and enemies were so different that our respective communities would have been forever at loggerheads with each other. The greatest proof of these differences and the ensuing animosity were the months preceding and succeeding '47 where millions butchered each other ! Any other solution to the Indian Problem would have resulted in even more blood shed for we would have had a bloody exemplification of Huntington's 'Clash of Civilizations' right here in our subcontinent ! And neither Jinnah nor the Muslims latched onto a 'novel' idea they gave the Quaid their unflinching support after what they had experience first-hand during the Congress Rule of (I think !) 37-39; I do suggest that you ask some of your elders (if you are a Bangladeshi) from that time and obtain a first hand account of how pronounced the differences between our two communities were. Secondly to assert that a man who gave up his love (Ruttie), his daughter's love, his political career in the Congress (he would have eaten up all these Nehrus and Patels very easily), his career as a leading barrister in Bombay, have his character assassinated so many times by the Indian Press, loose his health and finally his life because of 'TB' that he'd be suffering for so many years, that such a man did all of that for blind ambition is frankly insulting !

I think most states with Muslim majority could keep their dominance even under India. Theoretically, 2 nation theory is flawed considering 1/3 of the Muslim population left behind in the mercy of Hindus. When you drawn up a solution for the betterment of a community, you need to have answer for everyone of them. To me, it seems the Pakistan was drawn to safeguard the properties of Muslim Nawabs and Land Lords. You need to look at the founding principle of Muslim League.

Saying so, Congress was equally responsible to alienated Muslims and fueled the fire which eventually resulted the partition.

Jinnah, Sohrawardy, Haq etc were populist leaders but had little control over the core of Muslim League. One of the politician of that time (forgot his name) narrated it nicely, "A country was create with a weird formula and the picture of Jinnah was stuck in its face to give it a nice look"