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1971 war a RAW success?

Bangladesh remained as independent not because of Islam rather its a combination of Islam, ethnicity and economic and historical sacrifice it made for this land. Islam or no Islam Bangladesh will remain as independent in the foreseeable future.
 
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The fact is that such politics and killings are accepted by people because there is ethnic faultline in Karachi. The truth is that non-Muhajirs groups are under the mission to reduce Muhajirs to an insignificant minority by inciting mass migration in Karachi at the same time Muhajirs don't want any migrant to come in their city and there is huge public support for both side. Sindhis still have grudge that they lost majority in Karachi-Hyderabad.

No the reason these killing happen is because there is a weak law and order situation in Karachi. On top of that the government is useless and doesn't care about security.

And as a person who was born and raised in Karachi, I can confidently say that what you wrote is not true.

Bangladesh remained as independent not because of Islam rather its a combination of Islam, ethnicity and economic and historical sacrifice it made for this land. Islam or no Islam Bangladesh will remain as independent in the foreseeable future.


Point is as long as both Pakistan and Bangladesh remain independent from India, the two nation theory still holds true.
 
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I know what am I talking about, for every speech of Jinnah I can site two where he contradicts himself.

Such as ?

Jinnah had his reason, noway a man like him, who didn't have the ability to tap the common people like Gandhi, would able to make common people join the movement without saying what they want to hear.

Right..the man who'd scores of Muslims would gather round and listen to aptly without understanding a word of what Jinnah's immaculate English bellied, were not swayed by his ability to tap the common man ? The same man about whose unshakeable loyalty to the Muslims and his incorruptible character caused the same Muslims to give their unflinching loyalty to him and for his political adversaries to respect him ?

Either way if he was saying to the common man 'what they wanted to hear' then what seems to be the problem ? That same common man exercised his democratic right to choose to create a separate country for his own.

qbal was a poet and dreamer, he had negligible role in creation of Pakistan.

That poet and dreamer managed to convince Jinnah to accept his ideology in reply to which Jinnah said in a letter to Iqbal 'your views are in deep consonance with my own and have made me arrive at the same conclusion as you did' (Jinnah the Creator of Pakistan by Hector Bolitho). And if you'd like to know more about Iqbal's political philosophy I do suggest that you explore further his role as a member and later as the President of the All India Muslim League before he finally persuaded Jinnah to join and also in his book 'The Reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam'.

Very well, now let me remind you I was talking about Hindustani Muslims, not Punjabi Muslims.

What about them ? Barelivis are from Bareily, India ! Molana Shabir Ahmed Usmani and other Deobandi scholars were so Pro-Jinnah that they decided to break free from the Jamiat Ulema-e-Hind and instead created his Jamiat Ulema-e-Islam to further the cause for Pakistan ! And they were all Hindustani Muslims.


Now point to me when did ML under Jinnah opted for Sharia.

I'll reply rest of the posts later, ciao.

“Pakistan not only means freedom and independence but the Muslim Ideology which has to be preserved, which has come to us as a precious gift and treasure and which, we hope other will share with us”-Message to Frontier Muslim Students Federation June 18, 1945

“We must work our destiny in our own way and present to the world an economic system based on true Islamic concept of equality of manhood and social justice. We will thereby be fulfilling our mission as Muslims and giving to humanity the message of peace which alone can save it and secure the welfare, happiness and prosperity of mankind” –Speech at the opening ceremony of State Bank of Pakistan, Karachi, July 1, 1948.

“We have to fight a double-edged battle, one against the Hindu Congress and the other against British Imperialists, both of them being capitalists. The Muslims demand Pakistan where they could rule according to their own code of life and according to their own cultural growth, traditions, and Islamic Laws.” - Muslim League Conference on November 21, 1945.

On another occasion addressing of the Civil, Naval, Military and Air Force Officers at Khaliqdina Hall Karachi on 11th October 1947 he said, “It is my belief that our salvation lies in following the golden rules of conduct set for us by our great law-giver, the Prophet of Islam. Let us lay the foundations of our democracy on the basis of true Islamic ideals and principles”.

“Why this feeling of nervousness that the future constitution of Pakistan is going to be in conflict with Shariat laws?” said Quaid-i-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah. addressing a Prophet Day (Eid Miladun Nabwi) meeting of the Sindh Bar Association on Sunday evening, 1943.

Might I even continue ?

P.S It is incontrovertible that he opposed anything close to a Saudi or Iranian styled theocracy ! It is also quite true that he would oppose Pakistan in its current condition but make no mistake he was all for 'Political Islam' ! In his second speech he talks about 'Islamic Finance' and then in two subsequent quoted speeches he talks about 'Islamic Laws' and in all of them he talks about the 'Islamic Ideology - which essentially encompasses all of them !'.
 
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So, 80-85% of Muslims of North India stayed back in India showing big failure of the partition and two nation initially. Only Punjab could be purely divided on religious lines between purely Sikh-Hindu majority East Punjab and Muslim majority west Punjab. Even Bengal could not be divided on religious lines.

And migration of Muhajirs to Karachi created another tensions and new decade of violence in Urban Sindh.

Its more than politics, Karachi is Pakistan's ethnic faultline which is the fully related to partition.

Naturally no one was expecting the bulk of the Muslims to pick up and leave for to assume that would be absurd; however their support for Pakistan can be gauged by the fact that the Muslim League won their greatest advocates and got the most votes in Muslim minority provinces and not in the Punjab or Sindh ! I've relatives in Jammu who were vehemently Pro-Pakistan but still decided to stay back because of the massacres they heard were going on along the way and because of any other means of earning a livelihood then their cloth business, I would assume that many Muslims decided to stay back for similar reasons.

And Karachi has nothing to do with Pakistan's ethnic fault lines if that were the case then the Province of Punjab much more so than Karachi which is host to non-ethnic Punjabis numbering in the hundreds of thousands per ethnicity or as much as 35% of the Population of the Province (thats around 30-35 million People !) would have seen occurrences of such disturbances. Karachi is a victim of bad governance along with Pakistan's political parties whether its the MQM, the ANP or the PPP competing with each other in the lucrative 'ransom and exhortation' businesses that Karachi has been subjected too.
 
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Naturally no one was expecting the bulk of the Muslims to pick up and leave for to assume that would be absurd; however their support for Pakistan can be gauged by the fact that the Muslim League won their greatest advocates and got the most votes in Muslim minority provinces and not in the Punjab or Sindh ! I've relatives in Jammu who were vehemently Pro-Pakistan but still decided to stay back because of the massacres they heard were going on along the way and because of any other means of earning a livelihood then their cloth business, I would assume that many Muslims decided to stay back for similar reasons.

Communal riots ended by 1948 but India-Pakistan border were opened till early 50s and people were still migrating in 1952-53. So, avoiding migration due to violence hold no weight.
Majority of North-Indians who decided to stay back shows partition was impractical and everything finally messed up.

And Karachi has nothing to do with Pakistan's ethnic fault lines if that were the case then the Province of Punjab much more so than Karachi which is host to non-ethnic Punjabis numbering in the hundreds of thousands per ethnicity or as much as 35% of the Population of the Province (thats around 30-35 million People !) would have seen occurrences of such disturbances. Karachi is a victim of bad governance along with Pakistan's political parties whether its the MQM, the ANP or the PPP competing with each other in the lucrative 'ransom and exhortation' businesses that Karachi has been subjected too.

Muhajirs are still strong supporter of MQM, so are the Pashtuns of ANP even knowing that these people are indulged in violence. A road or street always divide different groups in Karachi.

As I already mentioned, non-Muhajirs led political parties are under the mission to reduce Muhajirs to an insignificant minority by inciting mass migration in Karachi at the same time Muhajirs don't want any migrant to come in their city being reduced as minority and there is huge public support for both sides. That is the main reason Pakistan left Biharis to suffer in Bangladesh.
Sindhis still have grudge that they lost majority in Karachi after partition.
 
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Muhajirs are still strong supporter of MQM, so are the Pashtuns of ANP even knowing that these people are indulged in violence. A road or street always divide different groups in Karachi.

As I already mentioned, non-Muhajirs led political parties are under the mission to reduce Muhajirs to an insignificant minority by inciting mass migration in Karachi at the same time Muhajirs don't want any migrant to come in their city being reduced as minority and there is huge public support for both sides. That is the main reason Pakistan left Biharis to suffer in Bangladesh.
Sindhis still have grudge that they lost majority in Karachi after partition.

Please don't talk BS when you know nothing. No-one wants to kill Muhajirs nowadays. Before in the 90's, yes there were fights between Pushtuns and Muhajirs, that is why ANP came to Karachi. In reality, both MQM and ANP just want to rule over Karachi, both MQM and ANP are justifying this by acting victim to the Pushtun and Muhajir killings. Now shoo. :)
 
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Bengal Muslims were the forerunners for independence and they have definitely contributed a lot, I would never deny that. That's why they deserved to have their own independent country.

Maybe there was something that could have been done to prevent 1971 but in the end there were too many factors going against the union.

Like physical separation by an enemy country, cultural differences, West Pakistan's issue with feudalism, language issue, etc

Now that its happened, we should concentrate on making our relationship stronger and just having a good relationship in general.

" Pakistan was created in 1947 primarily because of the support of Bengal. In fact without Bengal’s support, Pakistan would not have seen the light of day. It is one of the ironies of history that Pakistan remains in the hands of those who opposed its creation in 1947 and was discarded by those who created it. It is regrettable that the Pakistani leaders twisted the contributions of Bengal and instead treated us with contempt even to the extent of trying to impose the minority Urdu language over the majority Bengali language of Pakistan together with imposing on us a neo-colonial style of governance. That failure of the Pakistani leadership gave the cause of Bengali nationalism its greatest impetus."

 
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" Pakistan was created in 1947 primarily because of the support of Bengal. In fact without Bengal’s support, Pakistan would not have seen the light of day. It is one of the ironies of history that Pakistan remains in the hands of those who opposed its creation in 1947 and was discarded by those who created it. It is regrettable that the Pakistani leaders twisted the contributions of Bengal and instead treated us with contempt even to the extent of trying to impose the minority Urdu language over the majority Bengali language of Pakistan together with imposing on us a neo-colonial style of governance. That failure of the Pakistani leadership gave the cause of Bengali nationalism its greatest impetus."


Pakistan had a bunch of Bengali Presidents, why didn't they do anything for Bengal?
If you want to blame the government of Pakistan then you must also blame Bengali themselves. They had the power to change your situation but they didn't.

The real issue was the we were coming out of 200 years of colonialism and you can't fix all problems in 20 years. I personally blame Bhutto for the civil war, but I do feel that Bengalis did make mountains out of molehills on a few things.
 
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" Pakistan was created in 1947 primarily because of the support of Bengal. In fact without Bengal’s support, Pakistan would not have seen the light of day. It is one of the ironies of history that Pakistan remains in the hands of those who opposed its creation in 1947 and was discarded by those who created it. It is regrettable that the Pakistani leaders twisted the contributions of Bengal and instead treated us with contempt even to the extent of trying to impose the minority Urdu language over the majority Bengali language of Pakistan together with imposing on us a neo-colonial style of governance. That failure of the Pakistani leadership gave the cause of Bengali nationalism its greatest impetus."


This is a quote from M. Serajul Islam's article from a different thread. What this quote fails to mention is had Nehru interfered in East Pakistan in the early 1960's then this assumption no longer stands. Our understanding about Pakistan is distorted ......
 
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Pakistan had a bunch of Bengali Presidents, why didn't they do anything for Bengal?
If you want to blame the government of Pakistan then you must also blame Bengali themselves. They had the power to change your situation but they didn't.

The real issue was the we were coming out of 200 years of colonialism and you can't fix all problems in 20 years. I personally blame Bhutto for the civil war, but I do feel that Bengalis did make mountains out of molehills on a few things.


@ Till 1958 Pakistan was running good though in a slow speed but the imposing of Martial Law by Iskander Mirza and later by General Ayub destroyed the very essence of united Pakistan.

@ It was true that in the initial days Bengalis had some PM, President but every time there was a conspiracy against them. Khaza Nazimuddin was removed, Sharwardy was forced to resign, Iskander Mirza was forced to resign and was sent for exile by Ayub. Another most important think was that none of them were Bengali in the true sense.
 
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Such as ?



Right..the man who'd scores of Muslims would gather round and listen to aptly without understanding a word of what Jinnah's immaculate English bellied, were not swayed by his ability to tap the common man ? The same man about whose unshakeable loyalty to the Muslims and his incorruptible character caused the same Muslims to give their unflinching loyalty to him and for his political adversaries to respect him ?

Either way if he was saying to the common man 'what they wanted to hear' then what seems to be the problem ? That same common man exercised his democratic right to choose to create a separate country for his own.



That poet and dreamer managed to convince Jinnah to accept his ideology in reply to which Jinnah said in a letter to Iqbal 'your views are in deep consonance with my own and have made me arrive at the same conclusion as you did' (Jinnah the Creator of Pakistan by Hector Bolitho). And if you'd like to know more about Iqbal's political philosophy I do suggest that you explore further his role as a member and later as the President of the All India Muslim League before he finally persuaded Jinnah to join and also in his book 'The Reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam'.



What about them ? Barelivis are from Bareily, India ! Molana Shabir Ahmed Usmani and other Deobandi scholars were so Pro-Jinnah that they decided to break free from the Jamiat Ulema-e-Hind and instead created his Jamiat Ulema-e-Islam to further the cause for Pakistan ! And they were all Hindustani Muslims.




“Pakistan not only means freedom and independence but the Muslim Ideology which has to be preserved, which has come to us as a precious gift and treasure and which, we hope other will share with us”-Message to Frontier Muslim Students Federation June 18, 1945

“We must work our destiny in our own way and present to the world an economic system based on true Islamic concept of equality of manhood and social justice. We will thereby be fulfilling our mission as Muslims and giving to humanity the message of peace which alone can save it and secure the welfare, happiness and prosperity of mankind” –Speech at the opening ceremony of State Bank of Pakistan, Karachi, July 1, 1948.

“We have to fight a double-edged battle, one against the Hindu Congress and the other against British Imperialists, both of them being capitalists. The Muslims demand Pakistan where they could rule according to their own code of life and according to their own cultural growth, traditions, and Islamic Laws.” - Muslim League Conference on November 21, 1945.

On another occasion addressing of the Civil, Naval, Military and Air Force Officers at Khaliqdina Hall Karachi on 11th October 1947 he said, “It is my belief that our salvation lies in following the golden rules of conduct set for us by our great law-giver, the Prophet of Islam. Let us lay the foundations of our democracy on the basis of true Islamic ideals and principles”.

“Why this feeling of nervousness that the future constitution of Pakistan is going to be in conflict with Shariat laws?” said Quaid-i-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah. addressing a Prophet Day (Eid Miladun Nabwi) meeting of the Sindh Bar Association on Sunday evening, 1943.

Might I even continue ?

P.S It is incontrovertible that he opposed anything close to a Saudi or Iranian styled theocracy ! It is also quite true that he would oppose Pakistan in its current condition but make no mistake he was all for 'Political Islam' ! In his second speech he talks about 'Islamic Finance' and then in two subsequent quoted speeches he talks about 'Islamic Laws' and in all of them he talks about the 'Islamic Ideology - which essentially encompasses all of them !'.

Barevelis were pitting against Deobandis, it's natural that they were pro-partition. Like I said before, Congress supporting Deoband made all other groups, including North Indian educated Muslims, looking for their political career secured.

There is no political Islam, there is only politics, rest is figment of imagination of fertile minds.

Anyway like I said Jinnah played to audience or whatever else you'd like to believe, I don't have time to engage in polemics. None of the action of state of Pakistan during Jinnah's life time points to that he wanted to establish a sharia, islamic fiance etc following state, rather Pakistan was firmly based on English common laws, western democracy and western capitalism. The credit of changing Pakistan should go to Maulana Maududi. You might as well dig some archive in Pak Tea House on Jinnah.

If we were to believe Iskindar Mirza, Jinnah's opinion on Sharia wasn't very encouraging.
 
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No the reason these killing happen is because there is a weak law and order situation in Karachi. On top of that the government is useless and doesn't care about security.

And as a person who was born and raised in Karachi, I can confidently say that what you wrote is not true.

All other news and articles points to the fact that that Muhajirs haven't been integrated well with Sindhis or Pathans, and have a separate identity, thus making them a minority in the state of Pakistan, which they wanted to avoid when they choose to migrate.

Law and order situation might be bleak in Karachi, but that only helps to fuel and fire which already was ignited.



Point is as long as both Pakistan and Bangladesh remain independent from India, the two nation theory still holds true.

I'm not sure why you are keep reiterating this.

There are more or less same number of Muslims live in India by their own will, thus proved Muslims and Hindus can co-exists.

East and West Pakistan divided after a bloody civil war, thus proved religion can't be the sole binding factor in a nation.

North Indian Muslims are still a minority in India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and don't have higher political ground in all three countries, thus proved partition was fruitless to get them what they wanted to achieve.

The indigenous Muslims of West Pakistan and East Bengal were already majority in pre-partition era, so they were not in threat of being shadowed by the majority Hindus as far as religious life is concerned. And nothing change for them if ignore blasphemy law, ttp etc which were non-existence in British era.

All above facts proves two nation theory, in whatever way you'd want to put it, had failed.
 
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@armstrong
same things happening in India Bro. The mainlanders treat north east like it never exist. We ne people are hurt by that but will never like to part with the country.
Do the same thing with beluch people, treat them well. Dont make them feel like outsiders or being neglected. I know how it works, so I wish the good for pakistani people as well.
 
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At least RAW now admits it was involved in East Pakistan before 1971 ....... but what is the implications of this for Bangladeshis?

I graduated with a History Degree for my bachelors degree and so I had to do independent research regarding South Asia...I read declassified documents from the US state department of the 1967-1972 years of South Asia and I went through other sources. I found Shocking facts about the 1971 liberation war. First there was less than 30,000 Urdu speaking West Pakistani soldiers in East Pakistan while the rest of the 90,000 Urdu speakers were civilian. Mujibur Rahman claimed 3 million Bengalis are killed by Pak soldiers. I was also in a ROTC program in my school for the US Army branch for 3 and a half years so we had interactions with US soldiers from the Marines and other US military branches. We discussed military strategies and other topics and so I'm exposed to US military academia.

No doubt about it Pakistani soldiers committed murder and rape, but 3 million in 9 months by less than 30,000 soldiers with limited ammunition is nearly impossible from any soldier's experiences. Or was it? In my research, I found a leaked information from a British General who was in India at that time,in one of his statements, saying that the Indian Army trained 80,000 or more Indian Jawans as Pakistani soldiers to exacerbate the Bengali hatred toward Pakistanis. These 80,000 Indian solders had unlimited resources to kill Bengalis. And the Mukti Bahini, without knowledge, gave the Indian forces intel of where is what in East Pakistan and where are unarmed civilians, because West Pakistani soldiers and the Indian soldiers do not know the Bengal area as well as the native Bengalis.

Keep in Mind, A Bengali villager cannot tell apart between an Indian Punjabi and a Pakistani Punjabi, because they are both tall and light skin. For me the proof was when I went to visit my hometown in Mymensingh, Bangladesh, Mymensing is not a village, it's a small town in the north; my family is of Pathan descent so we do not look like other Bengalis, and so some people thought I was not Bengali until I spoke to them in Bangla.

So in conclusion RAW does a great job in deceit and they are good at what they do. Communication in Bangladesh is increasing with increasing of access to information. Awami League's falsysifying history isn't going to cover the truth up for long. And also by no means I support BNP, they are no better than AL, they are two sides of the same corrupt coin.

So all you proud Indians bring up the issue Pakistan was killing us and your country saved us, well conscious and educated Bangladeshis, and also military educated people like me know it's better to have one Pakistan than to have two. Otherwise India would not have existed today even with its superior military might. For example, Hitlers army, they got attacked on both sides one from Russia, the other from the Allies.

And also all you who denied what I just said and also will say this is a conspiracy theory, don't accuse me of making up this stuff, because it took me over 5 years to accept this truth because I am a proud Bangladeshi. But at the end of the day, I accepted it and I also became more of a believer of Islam, where a Muslim can only trust a Muslim for protection. (Pakistani solders of 71 are NOT Muslims since they killed innocent people both Muslims and Hindus).

Before I used to only care about Bangladesh's success, but after finding the truth of the liberation war about my country, I now pray for the success of all Muslim countries. And I pray for the re-establishment of the Caliphate, because my fellow Muslims are dying, look what's going on in Burma. The Muslim killers feard the Caliphate when he was around, and now he's not around Muslims are dying in masses. Nowadays, in the west a dirty dog's life is worth more than a Muslim's life.
 
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Great SIGNATURE bro, i have been preaching the same thing to my friends.... InshALLAH caliphate will reappear soon!
 
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