1965 war: How India almost lost to Pakistan

[graphican]

Why do you keep on ignoring the most basic and fundamental fact that it wasn't India which initiated the conflict. All Indian responses were to mitigate and repulse the Pakistani attack and to prevent them for taking Kashmir.

India has never attacked Pakistan with an intention to annex Kashmir unlike the Pakistan.

That is irrational argument... but if you do not know, it were Indian Generals who were planning to take tea at Gim Khana Lahore not Pakistani Generals wishing to supper at Gandhinagar. The way you have delusion of victory, the same delusion is also evident in this assumption that Pakistan despite being 5 times small and ill-equipped, attacked India.

Okay keep this assumption for the sake of argument, lets say Pakistan attacked 5 times stronger Indian army and at the end of war, India, despite being bigger, despite being stronger and more powerful in the books had zero gains against weaker enemy.

• Pakistan destroyed twice more Indian jets.. so may be Pakistan was victorious in air-battle only.
• But Pakistan also destroyed hundreds of Indian tanks in Chawinda who wanted to cut Kashmir from Sialkot and lost hundred and hundreds of those.. okay so Pakistan was victorious in that battle as well..
• And Pakistan is still holding ex-Indian check posts in Chamb-Jorian - okay so that was Pakistan's victorious in Chamb-Jorian but still doesn't count as victory..
• And Pakistan is still keeping its part of Kashmir which India was trying to snatch.. okay that is just Indian failure on Kashmir but India still won the battle..
• But India does't have an inch of land to show to its Indian youth that it won - but that still doesn't matter because India had won the battle despite all these losses because Modi said so.
• But Pakistan has been celebrating victory day from the last 50 years, every year - and India never had slightest celebration - still doesn't matter because when Modi says so, India wins.

 

[Spectre]

That is irrational argument... but if you do not know, it were Indian Generals who were planning to take tea at Gim Khana Lahore not Pakistani Generals wishing to supper at Gandhinagar. The way you have delusion of victory, the same delusion is also evident in this assumption that Pakistan despite being 5 times small and ill-equipped, attacked India.

Okay keep this assumption for the sake of argument, lets say Pakistan attacked 5 times stronger Indian army and at the end of war, India, despite being bigger, despite being stronger and more powerful in the books had zero gains against weaker enemy.

• Pakistan destroyed twice more Indian jets.. so may be Pakistan was victorious in air-battle only.
• But Pakistan also destroyed hundreds of Indian tanks in Chawinda who wanted to cut Kashmir from Sialkot and lost hundred and hundreds of those.. okay so Pakistan was victorious in that battle as well..
• And Pakistan is still holding ex-Indian check posts in Chamb-Jorian - okay so that was Pakistan's victorious in Chamb-Jorian but still doesn't count as victory..
• And Pakistan is still keeping its part of Kashmir which India was trying to snatch.. okay that is just Indian failure on Kashmir but India still won the battle..
• But India does't have an inch of land to show to its Indian youth that it won - but that still doesn't matter because India had won the battle despite all these losses because Modi said so.
• But Pakistan has been celebrating victory day from the last 50 years, every year - and India never had slightest celebration - still doesn't matter because when Modi says so, India wins.

This debate is getting irrational, for once and for all answer the below question

Just answer who fired the first shot? Speak Chronologically - Did Operational Gibraltar happen first or Indian thrust towards Lahore

The above is the only thing which matters in establishing who initiated conflict.

Aggressor looses if it is unable to achieve its objectives, in this conflict if operation Gibraltar happened first then Pakistan was the aggressor and Kashmir was its objective.

I appreciate your patriotism but here you are trying to defend the indefensible.

 

[ALexxy87]

India too claims Pakistani part of Kashmir and it was at-least 5 times bigger, stronger and more equipped than Pakistan. India has zero gains on the ground and Pakistani Kashmir is still with Pakistan. Now rethink who was the winner.

India claims....but when did it start the armed conflict like Gibraltar and grand slam to annex Azad Kashmir militarily in 1965? It was your plan and objective to start the operation....India just tried to deny it by any means it could......now you cannot expect everyone to play the game by your rules...especially when it's you who started the game.

India too claims Pakistani part of Kashmir and it was at-least 5 times bigger, stronger and more equipped than Pakistan. India has zero gains on the ground and Pakistani Kashmir is still with Pakistan. Now rethink who was the winner.

But India didn't start the conflict to take the Azad Kashmir.

 

[graphican]

This debate is getting irrational, for once and for all answer the below question

Just answer who fired the first shot? Speak Chronologically - Did Operational Gibraltar happen first or Indian thrust towards Lahore

The above is the only thing which matters in establishing who initiated conflict

So you can celebrate that Operation Gibraltar - but then you must spread this new history that soon after blocking operation Gibralter, India went into hibernation and had and never retaliated or tried to snatch Pakistani Kashmir back - despite claiming that in UN. If Pakistan couldn't get Indian held Kashmir than India too couldn't get an inch of Pakistani Kashmir even though it was 5 times stronger. Sounds like a victory for India?

So to you, entire war was fought in that 20 square kilometre area where India denied Pakistan an operation and that is the heart of victory for India? In that case, don't look at Indian losses and absence of gains as a result of war.

But India didn't start the conflict to take the Azad Kashmir.

No you'r right.. India went for Bangladesh which it never claimed and invaded it militarily but it didn't tried to get the territory of Kashmir which it demands so openly. Good.. I see how rationally you are fed by your historians.

 

[Spectre]

So you can celebrate that Operation Gibraltar was denied but then also spread this news that soon after that India went into hibernation and had and never retaliated or tried to snatch Pakistani Kashmir despite claiming that in UN. If Pakistan couldn't get Indian held Kashmir than India too couldn't get an inch of Pakistani Kashmir even though it was 5 times stronger.

So to you, entire war was fought in that 20 square kilometre area where India denied Pakistan?

Yes, our reason for celebration is that we denied annexation of our held territory by Pakistan, you have your own reasons for celebration which is halting an enemy 5 times your size on its advance to Lahore.

I have never denied your right to celebration and I urge you not to deny ours.

P.S. Go into reasons also for Indian advance towards Lahore, otherwise defense of Kashmir was untenable. By our rationale, thrust towards Lahore helped us defend our territory in Kashmir by expanding the focus of war. What would we our gain in annexing Lahore full of red-blooded patriotic Pakistanis who would never submit to our rule.

IA would have never been able to hold the streets of Lahore.

Regards

 

[graphican]

Yes, our reason for celebration is that we denied annexation of our held territory by Pakistan, you have your own reasons for celebration which is halting an enemy 5 times your size on its advance to Lahore.

I have never denied your right to celebration and I urge you not to deny ours.

Regards

Again wrong reading.. we destroyed twice more Indian jets and we captured Indian territory which is still under PA's control. Indian losses and defeat is not just witnessed by Pakistanis but also by the newspapers of the world. Try browsing them so you might learn how ill-informed you are kept.

 

[nForce]

This debate is getting irrational, for once and for all answer the below question

Just answer who fired the first shot? Speak Chronologically - Did Operational Gibraltar happen first or Indian thrust towards Lahore

The above is the only thing which matters in establishing who initiated conflict.

Aggressor looses if it is unable to achieve its objectives, in this conflict if operation Gibraltar happened first then Pakistan was the aggressor and Kashmir was its objective.

I appreciate your patriotism but here you are trying to defend the indefensible.

-this debate is going irrational - You were expecting a rational debate ? Hahahaha.....There are other forums for that.

 

[Spectre]

-this debate is going irrational - You were expecting a rational debate ? Hahahaha.....There are other forums for that.

I try my friend, I do try but it is a lost battle.

 

[me_itsme]

Talk about yourself only. Pakistan won the battle and we celebrate victory day and have been celebrating since war. Not like India who recently re-wrote their past and decided to go gaga on that.

On a soft note, tell your kids in schools how you won against a 5 times smaller army and still have nothing to show them on territory or military gains. Pakistan, till today is still occupying territory which we snatched from India in Chamb Joriyan Sector. In Kargil, we snatched Tiger Hill and are still holding it.

Bangladesh. Enough said. And tiger hill? hahahaha in lala land PA still holds it.

Now Pakistanis feeling happy cause they got defeated by a bigger army? lol No wonder that lot is one of the happiest people on earth.

 

[Spectre]

Again wrong reading.. we destroyed twice more Indian jets and we captured Indian territory which is still under PA's control. Indian losses and defeat is not just witnessed by Pakistanis but also by the newspapers of the world. Try browsing them so you might learn how ill-informed you are kept.

Yes, even if two times figure is factually wrong and we did capture more of your territory than you did ours till the ceasefire was declared, all that matters is we succeeded in our objective to defend Kashmir while you didn't. Rest is just gravy.

You won the battle but you lost the war. I didn't want to go there but you forced me to.

Regards

 

[graphican]

Bangladesh. Enough said. And tiger hill? hahahaha in lala land PA still holds it.

Yes trolling with help you shed shame.. but you'll need lots of it as defeat and absence of reason for Indian victory is not just your problem here.

 

[ALexxy87]

So you can celebrate that Operation Gibraltar was denied but then also spread this news that soon after that India went into hibernation and had and never retaliated or tried to snatch Pakistani Kashmir despite claiming that in UN. If Pakistan couldn't get Indian held Kashmir than India too couldn't get an inch of Pakistani Kashmir even though it was 5 times stronger.

So to you, entire war was fought in that 20 square kilometre area where India denied Pakistan?



No you'r right.. India went for Bangladesh which it never claimed and invaded it militarily but it didn't tried to get the territory of Kashmir which it demands so openly. Good.. I see how rationally you are fed by your historians.

IA opened other theatres only to relieve pressure from Kashmir....but it seems that you people are so badly fed by the propaganda by the military junta that you became resistance to any logical thought...ok answer me something.....the winning side always determine the time of ceasefire and that also in its own terms....thenn why did you accept ceasefire at all at that time?And why couldn't you take out the agreement in your own terms?

 

[graphican]

Yes, even if two times figure is factually wrong and we did capture more of your territory than you did ours till the ceasefire was declared, all that matters is we succeeded in our objective to defend Kashmir while you didn't. Rest is just gravy.

You won the battle but you lost the war. I didn't want to go there but you forced me to.

Regards

So you'r saying is that Pakistan lost its part of Kashmir as we couldn't defend it? That's a news.

And we won the battle and we are the winner of the war that is why we Celebrate 6th September as Defence Day. Its a National Holiday in Pakistan from the last 50 years.

 

[ghazi52]

................................................................................................

August 9-10, 1965: The Revolutionary Council launches

August 11, 1965: Battles commence

August 12-13, 1965: 'Aim for peace', while battles continue with India

August 16, 1965: 'Oppression' and 'revolution' in Kashmir

August 17, 1965: The Kargil push

August 18, 1965: The 'Crusade' continues, casualties on both sides

................

 

[Spectre]

So you'r saying is that Pakistan lost its part of Kashmir as we couldn't defend it? Thats a news.

I never said that. I don't want to go into circular debates; you lost the war because you failed in your primary objective to annex whole of Kashmir. You won the battle because you stopped Indian advance towards Lahore which was a relieving action by IA.

This is my last post on this topic.

 

[nForce]

Yes trolling with help you shed shame.. but you'll need lots of it as defeat and absence of reason for Indian victory is not just your problem here.

hey.. listen.. no matter how much chest thumping you do.. you are a looser and you know it.

Nobody needs an alternate dimension of history and a whole lot of ifs and buts to define that.