1965 war by international & Indian observers.

[deckingraj]

Haji Pir pass and Kargil were captured BEFORE Grand Slam, Indian troops advanced in Uri-Poonch BEFORE Grand Slam....Those operations were conducted by regular Indian troops in force BEFORE Grand Slam.
India perhaps thought that it will slowly take Pakistani Kashmir but when Pakistan responded with regular troops in Chamb they took the war to international borders. Means it's OK if REGULAR Indian troops attack our Kashmir but it becomes some kind of pure evil if Pakistan sends irregulars or regulars in Indian Kashmir.

Got a thrashing in the first response. As for the second one, amassing troops on border is one thing, sending them across is another.

Either you are ignorant or just like your army top brass who failed to understand a basic thing....we will not differentiate b/w Pakistani regulars/irregulars sent across the border for fulfilling your nefarious designs. This is the same crap you try to fed to the world during Kargil as well...Now please read about Gibraltar and then come back to this thread

Gibraltar, Grand Slam and war - Newspaper - DAWN.COM

Oh I dont disagree, but the Eastern front has certain truths and lies in rumours attached to it along with the fact that a lot of the Indian military was not as well deployed there. Another reason could be that unlike say Lahore or Karachi, the Easten wing had little "emotional" value for the Pakistani leadership. The dictator already referred to Bengalis as dirty rotten hindus.

Oscar, Pakistan fought tooth and nail for the same dirty rotten hindus in 71, right?? what i am trying to point here is that thrashing Pakistan was probably not the aim of IA in 65. Operation Grand Slam had pushed us really hard and all we wanted was to release the pressure. Having said that i agree that we could have done much better but then these coulds and woulds cannot change history. However one point worth mentioning is that IA learned its lessons did brought glory in 71....unfortunately PA top brass still thought that this irregular business will work 3 decades after the first debacle!!

 

[SQ8]

However one point worth mentioning is that IA learned its lessons did brought glory in 71....unfortunately PA top brass still thought that this irregular business will work 3 decades after the first debacle!!

Forget irregulars. The entire Indian military leadership gave a stellar performance in 71 if compared to their buffoonery in 65.Their decisions were crisp and morale raising on the spot(which only shows you how much of a shock the total disarray in 65 was to the Indian military) Compared to that, the Pakistanis were still infected with nepotism and orgy loving generals: One wanted to bed every woman in Dhaka at the same time while the one on the top wanted to hear madam Noor Jehan's melodious voice doing something other than singing.

 

[deckingraj]

Forget irregulars. The entire Indian military gave a stellar performance in 71 if compared to their buffoonery in 65. Compared to that, the Pakistanis were still infected with nepotism and orgy loving generals.

Well they got the job done which is what matters...PA should have learned her lessons but unfortunately paid the price for being too bold...anyways all that is history and have no relevance to present...i wish fanboys from both sides can understand this simple fact!!

 

[SQ8]

Well they got the job done which is what matters...PA should have learned her lessons but unfortunately paid the price for being too bold...anyways all that is history and have no relevance to present...i wish fanboys from both sides can understand this simple fact!!

No they wont. It is a desi thing. If one is smart enough to realize it by their early 20s they do;otherwise they remain at it for the rest of their lives. Still, you and I now have Trump to worry about; but lets keep any discussions on him beyond this thread.

 

[syedali73]

@Oscar: I have noticed that you are continuously calling General Yehya as orgy -lover General. He was or he was not, I do not know nor I have read some eye-witness account but I hope you are an eye witness to that act. Are you? If you are not, I'll suggest you not to use this word. There are dozen other words you can use to describe his immense incompetence.

 

[SQ8]

@Oscar: I have noticed that you are continuously calling General Yehya as orgy -lover General. He was or he was not, I do not know nor I have read some eye-witness account but I hope you are an eye witness to that act. Are you? If you are not, I'll suggest you not to use this word. There are dozen other words you can use to describe his immense incompetence.

Considering that his actions have been mentioned in accounts by multiple officers, and civil servants of his time.. I have no other term for him. The man was an insult to the uniform he wore, much like Niazi..and Ayub Khan.

 

[rezangahir]

madam Noor Jehan's melodious voice doing something other than singing.

 

[Psychic]

Either you are ignorant or just like your army top brass who failed to understand a basic thing....we will not differentiate b/w Pakistani regulars/irregulars sent across the border for fulfilling your nefarious designs. This is the same crap you try to fed to the world during Kargil as well...Now please read about Gibraltar and then come back to this thread

My point is that India herself did the same in Kashmir didn't she? Raan of kutch, Haji Pr, Kargil happened before 1st September (when grand slam was initiated)...Looks like you only want to talk about Gibraltar while forgetting that the fight remained local until Indians got beaten in that local fight. As for crap...Celebrating a war after fifty years just because Modi says so, itself is a testament of who is fed crap.

India never prepared or planned to take lahore

13 Major attacks (each of a Brigade or Brigade plus level) were launched by Indians on Lahore. Each one beaten back with severe casualties...so much for "just reliving pressure".

 

[Pulsar]

Hi

WAR started on 6th September......
When India crossed INTERNATIONAL BORDER and attacked Lahore. ...... objective to capture Lahore and Sialkot to claim specific territory in Kashmir in return ...... FAILED .......

Don't talk like an a$$ when you know squat of military history. That's the problem with civilians like you who depend on the mind blowing propaganda spewed out by your mullahs and your text books!

You idiots need to understand the difference between and Operation, Campaign, Battle and War.

'Capturing' Kashmir was the "specific aim" of Operation Gibraltar, not the 1965 War!

So stop acting stupid and understand that it was "Operation Gibraltar" that failed to achieve its aim.

The thrashing you guys received in the actual war is infact the victory we celebrate.

Was 'capture' of Kashmir Operation Gibraltar's mission or that of 1965 War?

It's like saying Pakistan lost the 1971 War because (East) Pakistan couldnt prevent 8 million refugees from spilling into India despite the fact that we lost it because we surrendered! Did we lose '71 because we lost Dhaka or did we lose the war because we allowed refugees to go inside India?
Grow up!

Sorry but you have joined the legions of ignoramuses on PDF by trying to rationalize your silly arguments that the sane out here won't buy.

The capture of Kashmir was the aim of the 1965 war - Operation Gibraltar - when Pakistan sent in 30,000 regulars dressed as 'mujahids' to liberate Kashmir. Unfortunately for these fellows, the Kashmiris got wise and apprehended most of them after they started indulging in looting and raping. Most others ran away back into Pakistan. This was a flop show of stunning proportions. The same tactics of 1947 were applied here too again but you guys got whipped. (Some people never learn).

Now I suggest you start getting wise by reading independent dispatches, papers and books on the war instead of the crap and propaganda dished out by your ISPR and Mullahs.

 

[Indika]

As for crap...Celebrating a war after fifty years just because Modi says so, itself is a testament of who is fed crap.

Celebrating for saving your *** looks ridiculous

13 Major attacks (each of a Brigade or Brigade plus level) were launched by Indians on Lahore. Each one beaten back with severe casualties...so much for "just reliving pressure".

Do you have comprehension problem ? Isnt it mentioned that for holding ground you need logistical support and reinforcements which were either slow or not present.

 

[Psychic]

Do you have comprehension problem ? Isnt it mentioned that for holding ground you need logistical support and reinforcements which were either slow or not present.

Swal gandum jawab channa....
13 major attacks which failed to occupy an inch across BRB...
15 major attacks on Sialkot front with the objective to capture Grand trunk road at Wazirabad.
Indian newspapers reports of having set up civil administration in Lahore and of Indian occupation of Lahore garrison along with news of capture of Kasur.
The one with comprehension problem is you.

 

[third eye]

Haji Pir pass and Kargil were captured BEFORE Grand Slam, Indian troops advanced in Uri-Poonch BEFORE Grand Slam....Those operations were conducted by regular Indian troops in force BEFORE Grand Slam.
India perhaps thought that it will slowly take Pakistani Kashmir but when Pakistan responded with regular troops in Chamb they took the war to international borders. Means it's OK if REGULAR Indian troops attack our Kashmir but it becomes some kind of pure evil if Pakistan sends irregulars or regulars in Indian Kashmir.

You Got a thrashing in the first response. As for the second one, amassing troops on border is one thing, sending them across is another.

Read this:

Battle of Hajipir Pass 1965

I do not disagree. However, then the fact remains that either side calling it a Victory is idiocy. The fact remains that whether you divide or include the war(one can divide the Vietnam war pre US troops and Post US troops but the war is taken as a whole)... Pakistan failed at getting Kashmir but at the same time India's attempt at any payback went full flat on its face.

Sure, one can parade in Dehli over making Pakistan give up on Kashmir or Parade in Islamabad about keeping the Indians from invading the motherland... but at the end of the day, if one looks at it from a pure performance point of view, with the resources it had and the majority it held; the Indian military simply did worse than the already bad performance by the Pakistani military.
Call it historical accounting(my cost, your cost, ABC etc)...but that is how I see it. Whether the Spartans did well or not, or the entire Greek Army suffered more.. the fact remains that the Greeks kept Xerxes at bay.
The David in this story was cheekier and attacked first, but at the end Goliath was an idiot to only let him get away with a few body bruises whilst he seemingly boasted of flooring him.

Its the old Glass being half full or half empty case.

What I cannot understand is why we keep discussing the same thing over & again.

Each time a newbie comes to the forum it starts all over.

Indians see it like this :

Pak was thwarted in its design to cut the valley

It was made to recoil from a near victory in Chamb by threatening a high value objective in Lahore.

 

[Psychic]

Read this:

Battle of Hajipir Pass 1965

So, 26 August comes before 1st September?
Those were local fights which were escalated by India into a full scale war.

 

[Perpendicular]

After the war Ayub khan regretting told his cabinet " I want it to be understood that never again will we risk 100 million Pakistanis for 5 million kashmiris --- never again".

 

[third eye]

So, 26 August comes before 1st September?
Those were local fights which were escalated by India into a full scale war.

You are both reading & quoting selectively

Check this out from the same source :



On August 5, two infiltrators in green salwar kameez approached a youngster near Gulmarg and offered him money for some information. The individual immediately reported the matter to Tanamarg Police Station. The same day a few infiltrators approached a local man in Mendhar area for some information. The local reported the matter to the nearby brigade headquarters. The alerted Indian Army captured two officers on August 8 near Narain. Their interrogation revealed the whole plan. Some incidents of firing and subversive activities were reported between August 10 to 12.