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12-million-year-old fossil found in Pakistan raises questions for evolutionists

You are talking about convergence evolution and parallel evolution of humans right?
In general the whole concept...I dont go to specific levels coz I am not a human biologist....I never claim to know it all about it...But as a general theory as an overview
 
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Wow.. people who do not have knowledge about something should not comment on it.
May I say the same to you? You admitted to falling under this category right here:

P.S. This is not my field of study but I believe I have a respectable amount of knowledge on this topic. There may be a few errors in what I say.
What you believe is your problem dont try to enforce it on others!

I being a plant geneticist never claimed to be a miss know it all ....nor will I ever reach that stage coz science doesnt work that way! The very fact you started your post in such a manner shows me how much respectable knowledge you can have! Anyone with respectable knowledge would not start as you did!

Let me try to describe evolution by natural selection to you in layman terms.
I am sorry I am not at your layman's level and was talking at a molecular stage maybe get to that level before throwing your insults around?

The basic idea is that individuals who have more useful characteristics are more likely to survive and create offsprings and pass on their traits. So after generations characteristics that are more likely will survive and the unfavorable characteristics will fade out.
I agree with that...THAT is THEORETICAL knowledge which would mean no apes should have survived....so I am not sure how you repeating what I said makes it sound better?

So now coming to your point, does being a moron have something to do with genes that can be passed from generations to generations? Or does it have more to do with the upbringing and education of an individual?
I am sorry I dont believe in such an attitude such as yours can be linked to ancestry I guess its your personal choice?

I am not sure what you are trying to say here, but it seems like you are claiming that we have a mutation that is passed on from generation to generation that makes us humans and if that mutation is removed we would act as animals.
That is what evolution claims I see you are not even familiar how evolution states changes occur! I am still waiting for the decent amount of knowledge to kick in! Maybe the last section in blue showed how much that knowledge is worth!

Well that is not true. Human DNA is like a blueprint. Think of it as a design of a building, it started off (billions of years ago) as a piece of brick, but now over time it has evolved into a 100 storey building. We pass on the design of this 100 storey building to the next generation, a few bricks here and there would not make us a completely different building.
Hence you can be homo erectus?

Dont get offended you yourself said that it does not make you completely different.....maybe your scale of different is different than mine......maybe you went to the molecular level this time in that case I agree with you but when you are at my field you should also know that the same gene through gene splicing can result in "different" functions!

Because humans are not the goal of evolution. Living beings evolve into a form of themselves that is more likely to survive and not into humans.
Living things pass on genes which makes a better form in order to survive not evolve themselves...They pass the msg and die ....Imagine the 1st transformation mother ape holding baby human....

ahh.. first of all evolution takes many generations, secondly, why would humans evolve into any other animal. Humans if needed will evolve into a better form of themselves, one that is more likely to survive, but even this change will take generations to be noticeable.
This is where you are wrong....we keep evolving but not at a macro level......Why are there white and dark skinned people? Why are there people with better lung capacity (for those who live on mountains) while the normal person has a normal capacity....the DNA is the same....changes occur in the activation and deactivation of the gene....but since most traits involve multigene it is not as simple as that!

And yes it takes years to be noticeable....

Why does a yeast need to communicate? Will it help it survive, is it worth all the overload that will come with the development of a brain?
more like does it even have enough genetic material to do so? But someone giving me an example of a yeast couldnt answer and the question was for them to ponder on....

It is not just a theory, it is a scientific theory. Read what a scientific theory is. A scientific theory is not just an idea, it is basically a scientific fact unless proven false. The theory of evolution will not change into a law, because laws and theories are two entirely different things.
I could agree with it but if it could be explained in better terms I dont believe the word theory would linger soo many years down...

I am not sure why this happens but I can say that no creature has reached their evolutionary peak and they never will. There is no perfect state, may be these characteristics will eventually fade out, or may be these characteristics are a better more efficient choice than any other alternative.
We have a lab here working on this aspect and hence that idea came to me even those working there didnt want to answer as they know scientific surprises lurk at every turn...It is only PDF Indians who think they have an answer to all!

Try fitting in a human kidney that is not compatible with your body, even that will not work
I am talking in terms of species jumping which people are all hyped about .....Yea even incompatible kidney wont fit and yet we are supposed to be from an ape?

@Armstrong

He talked about how evolution has changed as to what we know from Darwin based on the reasons he gave such as darwin had no idea about genes and HOW they function .....and the evolution theory has changed...exactly what I was talking about but people didnt accept it coz GOD FORBID a Pakistani saying it! That too a girl!

Ok I watched the video for some 30 mins
He is over enthusiastic....Half the things he said were half based or incomplete....There are too many genes involved in eye developement pax6 is just one...it is a transcription factor so yes it has a big impact...

2nd thing he talked about was genetic editing I do that and believe me it is no childs play and def not something to brag about....It is also not easy and it def isnt something that you can control! I will give you an example...I am working on a gene which has 6 other similar genes to it....the sequences are similar and when I want to edit one, many a times (as my senior did) she accidentally shut all of the 6 instead of the chosen one she had in mind....so not an easy tool...Yes we have it but bragging about it is a no no...

Him throwing away transitional folssils coz evolution is not linear does make sense but....it is only good in theory in practice we still look for transitional fossils to help explain stuff!

He showed the eyes in different animals he forgot to say how the eyes are utilized from underwater to on land from sensory of a work to that of a fish needing to evade predators in water...and he is talking about how you accumulate and have different structures....well what he needs to talk about is the molecular level..

He went to say that Humans are the only species that have been able to control our evolution THIS is what talk about but people throw animals at me :unsure:

He ended with Quran 35:45 which could be a showcase of what is available ...but also a sign to ponder on why there is variation! :)
 
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@Armstrong such a long video did you watch it?

after 1 hr it was starting to kill me!!! Both guys in the 1st hr are talking about 2 different aspects of the theory.

Guy 1 started off talking about how they did understand Darwin who proposed it was wrong and how the theory itself evolved ever since then...This is I do believe...I have no problems holding this for every organism but human.

Guy 2 was stuck on Darwin. I dont blame him ...when the theory was announced it was spread like butter on bread without head or tail and he is refuting everything they said back then coz no one told the students to move on....only when you reach higher studies do you realize what guy 1 is saying but what guy 2 is refuting stays in your head and it does cause confusion. I do believe there should be people to show how stupid it sounded and that it needs change but like guy 1 I believe it has evolved....

Now moving to 2nd hr....only god knows when i will finish that!
 
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@Armstrong such a long video did you watch it?

after 1 hr it was starting to kill me!!! Both guys in the 1st hr are talking about 2 different aspects of the theory.

Guy 1 started off talking about how they did understand Darwin who proposed it was wrong and how the theory itself evolved ever since then...This is I do believe...I have no problems holding this for every organism but human.

Guy 2 was stuck on Darwin. I dont blame him ...when the theory was announced it was spread like butter on bread without head or tail. I do believe there should be people to show how stupid it sounded and that it needs change but like guy 1 I believe it has evolved....

Now moving to 2nd hr....only god knows when i will finish that!

Guy 1 was making sense while Guy 2 sounded like he'd lost the argument !

Bottom line is that I evolved from a Saber tooth tiger ! :smokin:

You evolved from a hippo ! :tongue:
 
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however at 1hr 08 mins the tree...the point guy 1 made for it was important in regards to Humans...

if all animals appeared at the same time it would be like a tree and everything would simultaneously appear from this radius while many animals do the animals which include human dont....and he shows Convergent evolution

and completely ignored guy 2's demand for transitions which I too as a biologist demand in order to blindly give evolution a thumbs up!

You show us one fossil and say that these variations occurred from that fossil and these variations have similar DNA similar enough to be classified into the same class, family and species....


That is evolution within species

Guy 2 is asking for species jumping and evolution leading to new species....class/ family outside the species! like ape to human!

The rest I cant make out from guy 2....

He is asking for how the sudden appearance of species with fully developed systems (not in transitions or evolving from a common descent strategy which is evolution)
 
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how the hell?

Is that real? coz the next news is Superman is Indian? :o:

The fossil is 12 million years old since Pakistan did not exist at that time, It is can be said that the fossil is found in Indian sub continent :drag:
 
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The fossil is 12 million years old since Pakistan did not exist at that time, It is can be said that the fossil is found in Indian sub continent :drag:
hmmmm well 12 million we are still not sure maybe India was still drifting in the Indian ocean (even 10 million yrs ago India wasnt fully attached to Asia) so sorry cant be yours! Where the fossils were found forms a different plate.....

FigS8-2.gif


@Armstrong I prefer speaker no.3 the Jackson lady! esp the similarities in the species as a signature part ...I agree with that! prob of species and what we understand and the problem really is with humans....exactly what i have been talking about
 
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Potwar plateau where this fossil is found is also with the India while the continents are drifting ! :drag:
hmmmm well 12 million we are still not sure maybe India was still drifting in the Indian ocean (even 10 million yrs ago India wasnt fully attached to Asia) so sorry cant be yours! Where the fossils were found forms a different plate.....

FigS8-2.gif


@Armstrong I prefer speaker no.3 the Jackson lady! esp the similarities in the species as a signature part ...I agree with that!
 
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My question still remains why havent more apes evolved into humans?
Because they didn't have the same environmental challenges that we had to adapt to, they remained in a constant environment that is different than ours. Why evolve an intelligent mind to alter your environment when the environment provides everything you need? They reached a peak adaption to survive there environment and we have reached our peak adaption in our environment, this doesn't mean in the far future if there environment changes similar to the way it did for us that they won't evolve a brain like our, they can it just hasn't happened yet.
I agree with that...THAT is THEORETICAL knowledge which would mean no apes should have survived....so I am not sure how you repeating what I said makes it sound better?
No apes of today were able to survive the same environment as ours, the only ones that did are us. They adapted to a different environment that was available and so didn't go extinct. That's like saying Europeans adapted to northern environments so no Africans should have survived.... That statement is true and false at the same time, Africans can't naturally survive in northern environments so there isn't any that makes the statement true, Africans have survived in there own environment so the statement is false.

That is a true and false statement you made but you are only accepting one answer which doesn't work.
 
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Potwar plateau where this fossil is found is also with the India while the continents are drifting ! :drag:
Nope...get your geography checked! Only some parts of the plateau was but not where the fossil was so go claim some African monkey :D
 
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May I say the same to you? You admitted to falling under this category right here:

What you believe is your problem dont try to enforce it on others!

I being a plant geneticist never claimed to be a miss know it all ....nor will I ever reach that stage coz science doesnt work that way! The very fact you started your post in such a manner shows me how much respectable knowledge you can have! Anyone with respectable knowledge would not start as you did!


I am sorry I am not at your layman's level and was talking at a molecular stage maybe get to that level before throwing your insults around?


I agree with that...THAT is THEORETICAL knowledge which would mean no apes should have survived....so I am not sure how you repeating what I said makes it sound better?


I am sorry I dont believe in such an attitude such as yours can be linked to ancestry I guess its your personal choice?

That is what evolution claims I see you are not even familiar how evolution states changes occur! I am still waiting for the decent amount of knowledge to kick in! Maybe the last section in blue showed how much that knowledge is worth!

Hence you can be homo erectus?

Dont get offended you yourself said that it does not make you completely different.....maybe your scale of different is different than mine......maybe you went to the molecular level this time in that case I agree with you but when you are at my field you should also know that the same gene through gene splicing can result in "different" functions!


Living things pass on genes which makes a better form in order to survive not evolve themselves...They pass the msg and die ....Imagine the 1st transformation mother ape holding baby human....


This is where you are wrong....we keep evolving but not at a macro level......Why are there white and dark skinned people? Why are there people with better lung capacity (for those who live on mountains) while the normal person has a normal capacity....the DNA is the same....changes occur in the activation and deactivation of the gene....but since most traits involve multigene it is not as simple as that!

And yes it takes years to be noticeable....


more like does it even have enough genetic material to do so? But someone giving me an example of a yeast couldnt answer and the question was for them to ponder on....


I could agree with it but if it could be explained in better terms I dont believe the word theory would linger soo many years down...


We have a lab here working on this aspect and hence that idea came to me even those working there didnt want to answer as they know scientific surprises lurk at every turn...It is only PDF Indians who think they have an answer to all!


I am talking in terms of species jumping which people are all hyped about .....Yea even incompatible kidney wont fit and yet we are supposed to be from an ape?

@Armstrong

He talked about how evolution has changed as to what we know from Darwin based on the reasons he gave such as darwin had no idea about genes and HOW they function .....and the evolution theory has changed...exactly what I was talking about but people didnt accept it coz GOD FORBID a Pakistani saying it! That too a girl!

Ok I watched the video for some 30 mins
He is over enthusiastic....Half the things he said were half based or incomplete....There are too many genes involved in eye developement pax6 is just one...it is a transcription factor so yes it has a big impact...

2nd thing he talked about was genetic editing I do that and believe me it is no childs play and def not something to brag about....It is also not easy and it def isnt something that you can control! I will give you an example...I am working on a gene which has 6 other similar genes to it....the sequences are similar and when I want to edit one, many a times (as my senior did) she accidentally shut all of the 6 instead of the chosen one she had in mind....so not an easy tool...Yes we have it but bragging about it is a no no...

Him throwing away transitional folssils coz evolution is not linear does make sense but....it is only good in theory in practice we still look for transitional fossils to help explain stuff!

He showed the eyes in different animals he forgot to say how the eyes are utilized from underwater to on land from sensory of a work to that of a fish needing to evade predators in water...and he is talking about how you accumulate and have different structures....well what he needs to talk about is the molecular level..

He went to say that Humans are the only species that have been able to control our evolution THIS is what talk about but people throw animals at me :unsure:

He ended with Quran 35:45 which could be a showcase of what is available ...but also a sign to ponder on why there is variation! :)
When I said I am not an expert and it is not my field of study I meant that exactly. But clearly I have a lot more knowledge on this topic than you. You clearly are talking as if you never ever went to a bio class or just choose to reject anything you heard there.
I can easily refute everything you said point by point but it would not matter because you clearly don't want to learn.

Why do the apes survive? because they freaking live in a different environment than us. Try leaving a family of apes in the middle of NYC and see how they survive, or may be even in a wildlife environment much different from theirs, they will not survive. How you became a plant geneticist is beyond me, if you dont even know what a scientific theory means.
 
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Nope...get your geography checked! Only some parts of the plateau was but not where the fossil was so go claim some African monkey :D

Plateu exists close to Islamabad :D
By that time India arrived along with fossil, Monkeys existed in other parts of Pakistan :D
 
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