12-million-year-old fossil found in Pakistan raises questions for evolutionists

[Armstrong]

23:14 ? No mention of an egg and fertilization is skipped, went straight from sperm to a clot. Sperm is known because it can be observed and the clot can be assumed as a first step and observed from a women's period. Going from a lump of flesh to bones covered in flesh based off the observation that a newborns baby bones harden as time goes by so it's logical to assume that soft things form first then hard things such as bone. No mention of internal organ development besides bones. Then there's the birth.

The books are vague when it comes to science, they deal with morals and other mankind issues. That doesn't mean that they don't support science neither does it mean that they don't support science.

Actually it did touch on the process of fertilization a bit Islam Guide: The Quran on Human Embryonic Development but like I said previously it is not a 'Book on Science' but a 'Book that addresses Man' so it doesn't make the field of Embryology its subject of discussion it merely touches upon it because its addressing Man. Look at it analogously - When you have a book on History and you mention a Secular State you don't go about dissecting the term down to its minutiae because that falls within the realm of Political Science you merely touch upon it and give the general idea. Likewise the Scripture isn't doing anything of the sort; it is not a Book of Medicine....it simply touched upon the issue without going into the details and listing the whole steps from conception till the formation of the fetus.

 

[Dubious]

I don't know anything that you're talking about !

I simply copy pasted nuggets of information on Evolution that I had !

But one thing is certain; its accepted by almost every biologist out there so it must add up !

So far as the Koran is concerned; it supports the theory of evolution as well !

Actually quran doesnt confirm species jumping nor denies it...It is there for us to prove if it happened and deny if it didnt..

But 1 thing for sure ALLAH said HE made Adam (from nothing) and Eve (from Adam) perfect ...I believe that above psuedo proofs

2ndly, most of the biologists accept it over accepting a divine power...They dont wanna believe in God and hence 2nd alternative is to expect things happened themselves in a certain pattern .....

I ask if that is so....why havent more apes jumped to become Humans? why only 1 ancestor and that too had a "mutation" that strong that it was passed to next generation and so on....mutation can be lost too....and it was soo dominant that it didnt have any recessive (as in no human became monkeys again) ...this segment alone doesnt fit the way DNA works! Coz it works both ways.....

The question that comes to mind is, if one was to believe the theory of mankind's evolution is from Apes, then forgive me for asking this, in what shape did Hazrat Adam and Bibi Houva also known as Adam and Eve, appeared as. ??

Welcome back havent seen you around for a while?!

Wow.. people who do not have knowledge about something should not comment on it.
P.S. This is not my field of study but I believe I have a respectable amount of knowledge on this topic. There may be a few errors in what I say.
Let me try to describe evolution by natural selection to you in layman terms.
The basic idea is that individuals who have more useful characteristics are more likely to survive and create offsprings and pass on their traits. So after generations characteristics that are more likely will survive and the unfavorable characteristics will fade out.
So now coming to your point, does being a moron have something to do with genes that can be passed from generations to generations? Or does it have more to do with the upbringing and education of an individual?


I am not sure what you are trying to say here, but it seems like you are claiming that we have a mutation that is passed on from generation to generation that makes us humans and if that mutation is removed we would act as animals.
Well that is not true. Human DNA is like a blueprint. Think of it as a design of a building, it started off (billions of years ago) as a piece of brick, but now over time it has evolved into a 100 storey building. We pass on the design of this 100 storey building to the next generation, a few bricks here and there would not make us a completely different building.


Because humans are not the goal of evolution. Living beings evolve into a form of themselves that is more likely to survive and not into humans.


ahh.. first of all evolution takes many generations, secondly, why would humans evolve into any other animal. Humans if needed will evolve into a better form of themselves, one that is more likely to survive, but even this change will take generations to be noticeable.


Why does a yeast need to communicate? Will it help it survive, is it worth all the overload that will come with the development of a brain?


It is not just a theory, it is a scientific theory. Read what a scientific theory is. A scientific theory is not just an idea, it is basically a scientific fact unless proven false. The theory of evolution will not change into a law, because laws and theories are two entirely different things.


I am not sure why this happens but I can say that no creature has reached their evolutionary peak and they never will. There is no perfect state, may be these characteristics will eventually fade out, or may be these characteristics are a better more efficient choice than any other alternative.



Try fitting in a human kidney that is not compatible with your body, even that will not work

I will read this later but I might not reply if it is full of ignorance....

 

[Armstrong]

Actually quran doesnt confirm species jumping nor denies it...It is there for us to prove if it happened and deny if it didnt..

But 1 thing for sure ALLAH said HE made Adam (from nothing) and Eve (from Adam) perfect ...I believe that above psuedo proofs

2ndly, most of the biologists accept it over accepting a divine power...They dont wanna believe in God and hence 2nd alternative is to expect things happened themselves in a certain pattern .....

I ask if that is so....why havent more apes jumped to become Humans? why only 1 ancestor and that too had a "mutation" that strong that it was passed to next generation and so on....mutation can be lost too....and it was soo dominant that it didnt have any recessive (as in no human became monkeys again) ...this segment alone doesnt fit the way DNA works! Coz it works both ways.....


Welcome back havent seen you around for a while?!

The Koran talks about life being created in stages and all life being created from water; thats pretty much what evolution sounds like !

And I don't recall reading anywhere the Koran mentioning that Adam was created out of nothing; rather out of clay - in other words he was a carbon based life-form - Doesn't sound too objectionable !

 

[Dubious]

The Koran talks about life being created in stages and all life being created from water; thats pretty much what evolution sounds like !

yes and no....

Evolution is an evolving theory ....

We talk of microevolution which has no doubts...

Then we talk of other forms....tumhay ghar ja ker reply dayti houn I am in office ....

And I don't recall reading anywhere the Koran mentioning that Adam was created out of nothing; rather out of clay - in other words he was a carbon based life-form - Doesn't sound too objectionable !

Out of nothing meaning not from a monkey...Sorry my brain aint at its best right now..its bloody cold here!

 

[Srinivas]

1) Adam is made from earth.

2) There is a chance that dictates the evolution of species, that chance is believed to be God.

3) After humans the evolution stopped because of human brain evolution, which made the things comfortable for us by inventions and all.

4) those apes whose brains got evolved became humans. The brain of ape is small because of the skull structure and all. May be eating habits made it possible to alter the skull structure and increase in the size of brain.

 

[Dubious]

those apes whose brains got evolved became humans. The brain of ape is small because of the skull structure and all. May eating habits made it possible to alter the skull structure and increase in the size of brain.

My question still remains why havent more apes evolved into humans?

Why havent any other animal developed this brain coz we also have convergence evolution (b) and parallel evolution (c)....neither of these produced any new species with human like brain.....

For those who dont know basics

Convergent evolution causes difficulties in fields of study such as comparative anatomy. Convergent evolution takes place when species of different ancestry begin to share analogous traits because of a shared environment or other selection pressure. Environmental circumstances that require similar developmental or structural alterations for the purposes of adaptation can lead to convergent evolution even though the species differ in descent.

Back to my q: why havent ANY OTHER species developed our type of brain?

One of the best examples of convergent evolution involves how birds, bats, and pterosaurs (all different taxa that evolved along distinct lineages at different times) came to be able to fly. Importantly, each species developed wings independently.

Best example is given in regards to wings:

My q is why doesnt the human brain development follow this pattern? Why is it unique and stands out?

Evolutionary biologists havent been able to explain this at all...

Heck even Molecular biologist who work at molecule level havent been able to explain alot about the DNA...

Geneticists are puzzled at their own level....and protein level studies has made people even question evolution...

In my field we use evolutionary analysis only as a guide not as something written in rock....it is like algorithms help find genes ...evolutionary theories help understand some function and some ways of adaptations but it isnt taken as the absolute truth hence the word theory!

 

[Armstrong]

Out of nothing meaning not from a monkey...Sorry my brain aint at its best right now..its bloody cold here!

Oh come on; its silent on that front !

Plus eminent biologists like Fatima Jackson and Ehab Abouheif find nothing contradictory between Islam and Evolution !

 

[Srinivas]

There are species which use brain more than humans.

I think it is chance that made it possible for human evolution. Regarding why beings of different species have the same evolution of brain (convergence evolution), or why apes have not produced different species like humans with intelligence through evolution(parallel evolution).

There are Neanderthals and present homo sapiens. Most of the people are descendants of the cross breading between the two groups.

My question still remains why havent more apes evolved into humans?

Why havent any other animal developed this brain coz we also have convergence evolution (b) and parallel evolution (c)....neither of these produced any new species with human like brain.....

For those who dont know basics

Convergent evolution causes difficulties in fields of study such as comparative anatomy. Convergent evolution takes place when species of different ancestry begin to share analogous traits because of a shared environment or other selection pressure. Environmental circumstances that require similar developmental or structural alterations for the purposes of adaptation can lead to convergent evolution even though the species differ in descent.

Back to my q: why havent ANY OTHER species developed our type of brain?

 

[Jungibaaz]

People taking digs at evolution because of this.
Clearly you haven't evolved yet.

Um, Earth is 6000 years old, bye.

And the universe is 5999.

 

[Faiez]

or just screw evolution theory poor theory is challenged time and again and hence still remains a theory

That's not how science works kid.

Unless you can find a theory better, more logical than this one, we stick to it.

We have some evidence that we came from evolution. Other theories have NO or much less evidence than this one, so we stick to it, till we find a better one (by better I mean one with better evidence).

I ask if that is so....why havent more apes jumped to become Humans? why only 1 ancestor and that too had a "mutation" that strong that it was passed to next generation and so on....mutation can be lost too....and it was soo dominant that it didnt have any recessive (as in no human became monkeys again) ...this segment alone doesnt fit the way DNA works! Coz it works both ways.....

okay, let me put forward a little theory...

this is what could have happened.

apes were all over earth and on most areas on earth there were food/shelter and favourable conditions for survival of apes to an extent that they didn't need to adapt to anything. Then on some part of earth, things changed, climate changed, they now had to adapt to these changes. They started evolving into more intelligent animals that could find a way around more problems and adapt to even more challenging environments. But at the same time, apes on other parts of the world did not need to adapt to any changes, due to there not being significant changes in the climate etc.

There's some "racist" proof as well. look at africans vs europeans. It is suggested that humans from europe are more intelligent than humans from africa. the proof is that africa was always a fertile land and food was so easily available there was little incentive in being more intelligent. Added intelligence gave no significantly extra chances of survival etc. Compare that to europe where living conditions were harsh, cold weather, lack of food etc etc. They HAD to evolve to survive, they had to get more intelligent in order to survive and the most intelligent ones would survive, making them more and more intelligent with every generation. While in africa, intelligence stayed where it was since there was no challenge.

Mutations randomly happen, but external factors decide what mutations survive. These factors vary all over the planet, from place to place. That is why we don't have humans that all look exactly the same everywhere. Same is the case for other species of animals.

 

[Armstrong]

@Akheilos :

 

[Dubious]

@Akheilos :

Janaab I am not even talking as a Muslim...I am talking as a Molecular biologist....

Let me explain when evolutionary theory was hypothesized alot wasnt known...The theory itself is evolving and doesnt carry the same weight as it did when it was presented....

2ndly, my only reason for not accepting it is the complexity at molecular level....

3rdly, I have been presented with an alternative theory based on religious grounds that ALLAH made the ape evolve and when the evolution was perfect sent the roh of Adam and Eve in the perfect creature we called man....The only problem with this theory is it has no scientific basis like the original theory....

Lastly, there are soo many missing links....I leave you with a last example...

Those animals which we classified once upon a time, are now being reclassified as separate species and their own families....alot is breaking paving way for a more flexible theory ....if a theory is not flexible it will eventually die out....Evolution has remained a theory because it has been adjusted soo many times that the original theory barely exists in what rigid points were once presented...

Being a scientist we are ever ready for flexibility in theories to emerge as science advances hence no one will call it the facts of evolution and will keep it a theory because of its evolving status based on new scientific advancements!

Oh come on; its silent on that front !

Plus eminent biologists like Fatima Jackson and Ehab Abouheif find nothing contradictory between Islam and Evolution !

Hope that explains a bit of where I stand....

I dont rigidly oppose it but I wont accept it until some missing questions are answered!

 

[Armstrong]

Janaab I am not even talking as a Muslim...I am talking as a Molecular biologist....

Let me explain when evolutionary theory was hypothesized alot wasnt known...The theory itself is evolving and doesnt carry the same weight as it did when it was presented....

2ndly, my only reason for not accepting it is the complexity at molecular level....

3rdly, I have been presented with an alternative theory based on religious grounds that ALLAH made the ape evolve and when the evolution was perfect sent the roh of Adam and Eve in the perfect creature we called man....The only problem with this theory is it has no scientific basis like the original theory....

Lastly, there are soo many missing links....I leave you with a last example...

Those animals which we classified once upon a time, are now being reclassified as separate species and their own families....alot is breaking paving way for a more flexible theory ....if a theory is not flexible it will eventually die out....Evolution has remained a theory because it has been adjusted soo many times that the original theory barely exists in what rigid points were once presented...

Being a scientist we are ever ready for flexibility in theories to emerge as science advances hence no one will call it the facts of evolution and will keep it a theory because of its evolving status based on new scientific advancements!

Hope that explains a bit of where I stand....

I dont rigidly oppose it but I wont accept it until some missing questions are answered!

Watch the video !

 

[Dubious]

Watch the video !

Doing that now

Dear GOD 4hrs???

There are species which use brain more than humans.

I am not merely talking about brain usage but the complexity of it...something even a neuroscientist from Japan (A friend of mine) refuses to acknowledge but leave it to PDF Indians with PHD in everything jumping in to save their monkeys! lovely!

I think it is chance that made it possible for human evolution.

Good to know your believe sad to break it to you but the world doesnt really care until and unless you can prove it!

Regarding why beings of different species have the same evolution of brain (convergence evolution), or why apes have not produced different species like humans with intelligence through evolution(parallel evolution). There are Neanderthals and present homo sapiens. Most of the people are descendants of the cross breading between the two groups.

I didnt say this but clearly you didnt understand what I said....

 

[Srinivas]

I didnt say this but clearly you didnt understand what I said....

You are talking about convergence evolution and parallel evolution of humans right?