105mm/37cal Mounted Gun System Procurement

[vi-va]

That is the aim. Currently we have over 1700+ 105mm pieces. The future mix will see like maybe 200 mounted 105mm systems and maybe 100 or so towed systems. Maybe few more. But that's it.

Rest all guns will be of 155mm. Barrel lengths will differ.

You see the there is going to be a huge reduction in 105mm numbers even with this. This is to be used only where we cannot get the 155. So not a big problem.

@Joe Shearer

India army has very small number of 155 mm artillery. Most of them are very old towed 155 mm howitzer, and there are only 200 FH-77B howitzer(45 caliber).

Haubits FH77 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Take a look at South Korea, 1,136 K9 Thunder and 179 K10s.

K9 Thunder - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So, if India army 1700+ 105 mm artillery could not counter armored brigade, 155 mm couldn't either, not enough neither in quantity nor quality.

Not every brigade is an armoured brigade. We also have to see who and what is facing us. Take a look at the Pakistan Army's order of battle; count the number of infantry, or mechanised infantry battalions (regiments), brigades and divisions. Why should we keep unnecessarily heavy guns?




You beat me to it.

@Starstreak

Starstreak said:
Why do you think we would use it to stop armoured brigades ? Our doctrine is different from the PLA . 105mm is primarily deployed to supress advancing infantry and to provide quick fire support to mountain troops , it is very light and can be lifted by the exisiting Mi17 and Dhruv helicopters of the indian aviation forces . These guns can be disassembled in pieces and transported in secrecy to locations without letting the enemy know about it . 105mm is not obsolete as you claim US army , italian army , british army , korean army all still use 105mm in various roles. These guns have a good history of raining punishing fire on pakistan army during ceasefire violations

 

[Joe Shearer]

@Joe Shearer

India army has very small number of 155 mm artillery. Most of them are very old towed 155 mm howitzer, and there are only 200 FH-77B howitzer(45 caliber).

Haubits FH77 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Take a look at South Korea, 1,136 K9 Thunder and 179 K10s.

K9 Thunder - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So, if India army 1700+ 105 mm artillery could not counter armored brigade, 155 mm couldn't either, not enough neither in quantity nor quality.

Somehow, our elaborate explanation seems to have missed your attention. With 105 mm field guns, we do NOT seek to stop armoured brigades. At the time that these were procured, and even today, the overwhelming number of formations facing us is NOT armoured formations.

Out of 24 Divisions + 2 Air Defence Divisions, 18 are Infantry Divisions. Very fine infantry, but they are not armoured or even mechanised infantry.

I hope that helps.

 

[vi-va]

Somehow, our elaborate explanation seems to have missed your attention. With 105 mm field guns, we do NOT seek to stop armoured brigades. At the time that these were procured, and even today, the overwhelming number of formations facing us is NOT armoured formations.

Out of 24 Divisions + 2 Air Defence Divisions, 18 are Infantry Divisions. Very fine infantry, but they are not armoured or even mechanised infantry.

I hope that helps.

If you are referring to Pakistan Army, ok. that's fine.

But China brigades are definitely armored, or at least mechanized.

 

[Joe Shearer]

India army has very small number of 155 mm artillery. Most of them are very old towed 155 mm howitzer, and there are only 200 FH-77B howitzer(45 caliber).

Haubits FH77 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Your friend Star Streak presents his compliments and wishes to draw your attention to the fact that the 200 Bofors Howitzers that you refer to are a very small portion of the total complement.

That consists of 961 155mm artillery pieces which include :-

Self-propelled
36 dhanush (new built SP FH-77B)
100 K9 (new built SP from Korean design)
200 FH77bs

Towed
180 soltem upgraded guns (refurbished guns, towed)
300 sharang guns (130 mm guns with barrel change)
145 M777s

Hope that helps.

If you are referring to Pakistan Army, ok. that's fine.

But China brigades are definitely armored, or at least mechanized.

Mechanised.

I have gone through their reorganisation as Light, Medium and Heavy Combined Arms Brigades. Very impressive. Something we need to implement, but with major modifications, in the Indian Army.

 

[Hellfire2006]

If you are referring to Pakistan Army, ok. that's fine.

But China brigades are definitely armored, or at least mechanized.

What armour will chinese bring to the himalayas

 

[Hellfire2006]

Great explanation @Joe Shearer !

 

[Joe Shearer]

Great explanation @Joe Shearer !

Oh, that was from a youngster, a fauji brat, who really knows his stuff. He asked me, off forum, to bring this to the attention of vi-va.

That kid is amazing.

Great explanation @Joe Shearer !

Fishing, eh?

What armour will chinese bring to the himalayas

Probably the ZTQ-15, known in short as the T15.

ZTQ-15 Light Tank | Military-Today.com

Recently a new ZTQ-15 light tank was adopted by the Chinese army. This new tank is intended for reconnaissance and infantry support operations.

www.military-today.com

 

[vi-va]

Your friend Star Streak presents his compliments and wishes to draw your attention to the fact that the 200 Bofors Howitzers that you refer to are a very small portion of the total complement.

That consists of 961 155mm artillery pieces which include :-

Self-propelled
36 dhanush (new built SP FH-77B)
100 K9 (new built SP from Korean design)
200 FH77bs

Towed
180 soltem upgraded guns (refurbished guns, towed)
300 sharang guns (130 mm guns with barrel change)
145 M777s

Hope that helps.


Mechanised.

I have gone through their reorganisation as Light, Medium and Heavy Combined Arms Brigades. Very impressive. Something we need to implement, but with major modifications, in the Indian Army.

Regarding 105 mm vs 122 mm:
105 mm is the major force of India artillery system. I think India need to develop the
SADARM ammunition if possible, otherwise it will still be inferior to 122 mm.

Sense and Destroy ARMor - Wikipedia


Regarding 155 mm:
Base on my understanding of modern artillery confrontation, towed artillery are kind of sitting duck.

Both Pakistan and China has Anti-artillery radar to locate artillery of the other side. So I won't count in towed 155 mm artillery in potential India-China confrontation.

SLC-2 Radar - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

200 FH-77B howitzer can move to next position slowly after shooting, but still much inferior to self-propelled artillery.

Towed 155 mm has one notable advantage, which is vehicle passability. Especially in Northwest of India, where is mountainous but lack of good infrastructure. Some bridges were designed for less than 20 tons.

But the majority of India towed 155 mm are old ones. Only 147 M777s are truly modern artillery, but triple the price of Pakistan/China SH-15. Very bad choice, purely politically motivated. India doesn't have as many CH-47 Chinook as U.S.

K-9 is 47 ton, hope the bridge in Jammu Kashmir and Ladakh can bear the weight.

Modern artillery systems is all about information system, the C4I system.

Pakistan imported China artillery system, especially the command and control, anti artillery radar, data link, and so on. Frankly speaking, China has one of the best artillery system in the world, much better than Russia, superior to U.S.


PS:
My observation is that, India Army artillery system in general is old, outdated, lack of investment. Procurement decision process is slow, and unwise.
K9 is mostly made in South Korea and West.
M777 is as expensive as K9, made in U.S., very cost ineffective.

Garuda 105mm gun use Soft Recoil Technology, which was first developed in U.S. if I remember right. Soft Recoil Technology will decrease accuracy. Hope the advantage worth it.

Soft Recoil Technology - International Defense Security & Technology

Artillery weapons have been used for hundreds of years. These weapons have been continuously develop

idstch.com

Garuda 105

www.globalsecurity.org

China truck artillery:
155 mm

122 mm

122 mm on HMMWV

 

[Joe Shearer]

Regarding 105 mm vs 122 mm:
105 mm is the major force of India artillery system. I think India need to develop the
SADARM ammunition if possible, otherwise it will still be inferior to 122 mm.

Inferior in what way? In shooting shells at unarmoured human beings?

Regarding 155 mm:
Base on my understanding of modern artillery confrontation, towed artillery are kind of sitting duck.

Both Pakistan and China has Anti-artillery radar to locate artillery of the other side. So I won't count in towed 155 mm artillery in potential India-China confrontation.

We have heard of counter-battery fire, and we have had some scientists working on radar for counter-battery fire. This kind of radar has been available with us for some decades now.

SP artillery is useful in keeping up with fast-moving armoured or mechanised infantry columns; their built-in propulsion is not needed for shifting position quite so much as it is used for keeping up. Shifting the position of towed artillery can be done almost as quickly as shifting SP artillery.

Hope that helps.

200 FH-77B howitzer can move to next position slowly after shooting, but still much inferior to self-propelled artillery.

Who told you that?

Towed 155 mm has one notable advantage, which is vehicle passability. Especially in Northwest of India, where is mountainous but lack of good infrastructure. Some bridges were designed for less than 20 tons.

This, incidentally, is also how the PA uses it.

 

[Joe Shearer]

But the majority of India towed 155 mm are old ones. Only 147 M777s are truly modern artillery, but triple the price of Pakistan/China SH-15. Very bad choice, purely politically motivated. India doesn't have as many CH-47 Chinook as U.S.

K-9 is 47 ton, hope the bridge in Jammu Kashmir and Ladakh can bear the weight.

So you feel the right mix is partly towed artillery for mountain and high-altitude areas with flimsier infrastructure, but they should be new. Then your entire wishes will be fulfilled by either the ATAGS or by the Dhanush, both of which meet your criteria. The M-777 also has an Indian equivalent, built on seeing the M-777 at close quarters, and finding out how they got it to be so light weight.

In the plains, you would like to see self-propelled artillery, to shoot and scoot, but are not aware, it seems, of the other use of self-propulsion, of keeping up with mobile columns. This might require a little more study on your part. As it is, weight is not really a criterion for SP artillery, and the weight of the K9 should not matter, as it is not being pushed into the high mountains. You must be aware of the availability of a vast number of T55 tanks that are being converted to carriers for 105 mm and 155 mm guns; those will provide the numbers, and even the lighter weight that seems to be so desirable.

When we get to these bores, the division between so-called self-propelled artillery and the sexier-sounding, but identical, tank destroyers blurs. Any gun mounted on a propulsion under-carriage will serve to be self-propelled artillery, and there is neither a shortage of carriers nor of gun barrels, given what is coming into production.

Garuda 105mm gun use Soft Recoil Technology, which was first developed in U.S. if I remember right. Soft Recoil Technology will decrease accuracy. Hope the advantage worth it.

It seems that it is somehow very difficult for you to remember that 105 mm guns are intended for use against personnel, and accuracy is less important when shooting HE shells, compared to shooting SHAPE charges at tanks.

 

[Hellfire2006]

@vi-va you don't seem to get the point yet . Kindly go through all the posts in this thread written by @Joe Shearer again and take some time to think about it . Read them VERY CAREFULLY !

 

[Hellfire2006]

@vi-va please put aside the theory of 155mm guns stopping armoured brigades and stuff . Where can PLA concentrate armour along the LAC , IB and McMahon ? Mainly six areas
1) Depsang Plains
2) Chushul Valley and Spanggur Gap
3) North Sikkim ( Yumthang Valley and areas north of Gurudongmar lake )
4) Eastern Sikkim ( Doklam Plateau )
5) North Bank of Pangong tso ( very limited scope for armoured maneuvering due to less width of the north bank )
6) bumla plateau ( limited space for maneuvering just like North Bank of Pangong tso , suicidal for any large tank formation to try and break through)
It's not like you can deploy all your armoured brigades anywhere you want to all along the Boundary
In all these areas IA has sufficent defences in the current scenario to deter PLA Heavy CABGs from making any sudden changes in status Quo .
There are anti tank ditches , minefields infested by magnetic influence mines and Crept in ATGM teams . It's not so easy to overcome these and that too when you have limited space to maneuver . So why would we need 155mm artillery in humungous quantity when we don't need it ? 1,200 pieces of 155mm artillery would be sufficent to equip 65 artillery regiments and currently we have 961 155mm pieces in our inventory . Indian artillery arm is undergoing a revolution this decade with the induction of ULHs , K9s and ATAGS . the existing 130mm artillery stocks numbering 750 guns are also expected to be converted to 155mm caliber by the end of this decade

 

[Paul2]

As I said, I am not export on India Army.

But I do see 105mm kind of outdated. 122mm is better.

The key difference is that 122 can credibly kill armour, and 105 will at most damage armoured cars, and lighter APCs.

Basically, 105 is there just to kill other lighter infantry forces, which are no in the region. Both Pakistan Army, and PLA easily operate MBTs, and mechanised heavy force in Himalayas.

It's rather a testament to Indian Army not being able to field heavy equipment in high mountains itself.

 

[Two banks of the River]

The key difference is that 122 can credibly kill armour, and 105 will at most damage armoured cars, and lighter APCs.

Basically, 105 is there just to kill other lighter infantry forces, which are no in the region. Both Pakistan Army, and PLA easily operate MBTs, and mechanised heavy force in Himalayas.

It's rather a testament to Indian Army not being able to field heavy equipment in high mountains itself.

No need to worry about the heavy equipment from IA in Himalayas. 10 regiments of K9 will be procured especially for that and another 40 regiments are planned to be procured as 155mm Mounted Gun Systems. Half of those 40 will be deployed in the mountains.

105mm Mounted Gun Systems are there to fill the gaps where 155mm cannot be deployed.

As for PA deployment in Himalayas with armour and mechanised units, you are showing yourself lacking the context being talked here.

A further 25 regiments of 155 ultra light towed guns are to be procured for mountains specifically. In addition to 145 M777s on order now.

 

[Mahabahu kaunteya]

Total requirement for 155 mm tracked howitzer was 400 units in 90s itself.
Under field artillery rationalisation plan , indian army planned to replace all 105 mm, 130 mm, 122 mm with 155 mm calibre of all types which included tracked towed and wheeled and ultralight systems
Bhim tracked self propelled howitzer was based on arjun chassy and turret was supplied from denel of South Africa ( I can't upload photos yet , so pardon me for that )
So after 21 years , after denel was blacklisted on charges of corruption ,india bought 100 k 9 vajra and news reports are saying that 200 more can be ordered .
All in all , it's foolish to purchase more 105 mm guns of any form .