10 defence industry programs Pakistan should pursue (But it isn't)

[BetterPakistan]

USS Carl Vinson is the carrier that was supposedly sent towards Korea. Here are a few points that you should consider before ridiculing anyone.

USS Carl Vinson is a hundred thousand ton supper carrier (this is almost 8 times the tonnage of our entire navy) carrying around 90 fixed wing and rotary aircraft!!! This is almost two times the number carried by any other carrier outside USA so please do not consider just another carrier and try to understand where we actually stand.

Secondly, @pakistanipower is right, carriers do need 3-4 FFG, DDG for protection against missile attacks and aerial threats as well as surface and sub-surface dangers. That is the reason the aircraft carriers operate in carrier strike groups. USS Carl Vinson is also equipped with two GUIDED MISSILE DESTROYERS and one GUIDED MISSILE CRUISER!
These are no ordinary boats either. Just to give you an idea, the guided missile cruiser is armed with 2 x 61cell VLS, that is 122 missile cells in total. Guns, CIWS, Torpedo tubes are in addition to these 122 cells, not to mention 8 harpoon missiles too. For a quick comparison, the ada class corvettes or its second cousin LF2400 that PN is reportedly interested in as there NEXT BIG PROJECT have a 16 cell VLS. It will take some 8-10 boats to meet the kind of fire power the mentioned cruiser in strike group have AND, that is just one ship, there are two more destroyers there as well with almost equally impressive payload. So if someone mentioned how 3-4 FFG DDG are required to protect the carrier rather than making fun of them please understand what they are saying. The truth is that out entire naval surface force may not be able to match the fire power of couple of these ships.

Another important thing you should note is that, despite this carrier being accompanied by three heavy US ships the fire power of which i have briefly mentione, Japan, a key US ally will also sending its surface ships to the area when US navy is deployed there.

For submarines, please note that they will never be declared as subs are supposed to be the silent warriors. However be assured that submarines are an integral part of any such deployment.

@fatman17 @araz @Bilal Khan (Quwa)

It would have been better if you go through our entire conversation. According to his logic Aircraft Carrier is useless and I just ask him to tell me how many submarines were moving with Carl Vinson.

Secondly, I think you don't know that we were discussing 2030 not today.

 

[Arsalan]

It would have been better if you go through our entire conversation. According to his logic Aircraft Carrier is useless and I just ask him to tell me how many submarines were moving with Carl Vinson.

Secondly, I think you don't know that we were discussing 2030 not today.

I went through the entire conv. and one thing i noticed that was out of line were your remarks. Everyone is entitled to there views, no point in ridiculing others. I agree that Carriers are not junk and are real power projection machines, just like i agree that Pakistan is not going for a carrier, not even in near future. However these are just my views, you may disagree but you are not entitled to ridicule others ideas and never do so by making absurd remarks. I hope i was able to deliver my message. Now lets please continue with the discussion.

 

[BetterPakistan]

I went through the entire conv. and one thing i noticed that was out of line were your remarks. Everyone is entitled to there views, no point in ridiculing others. I agree that Carriers are not junk and are real power projection machines, just like i agree that Pakistan is not going for a carrier, not even in near future. However these are just my views, you may disagree but you are not entitled to ridicule others ideas and never do so by making absurd remarks. I hope i was able to deliver my message. Now lets please continue with the discussion.

What else could you expect from someone when the other one says that tit-for-tat with India is over despite the fact that their PM says that he will isolate Pakistan, when their NSA says we will divide Pakistan, when we have caught their spy spreading terrorism in our country, when the other country is threatening our existence. Wow

A few years back no one was expecting Pakistan second strike capability and now we have achieved it and soon we will have complete second strike capability after 2020. Decisions are made on scenarios and no one here knows what will be the scenario in 2030.

 

[JK!]

If Pakistan wants a carrier capability or any kind it wouldn't be a bad idea to start off with a helicopter carrier and some amphibious support ships.

My reason for this suggestion is a Pakistan is one of the largest contributors of personnel to UN Peacekeeping. This would provide an excellent expeditionary capability to support those operations.

Turkey is currently building the LHD Anadolu. Failing that another starting point could be Singaporean Endurance class.

 

[Penguin]

If Pakistan wants a carrier capability or any kind it wouldn't be a bad idea to start off with a helicopter carrier and some amphibious support ships.

My reason for this suggestion is a Pakistan is one of the largest contributors of personnel to UN Peacekeeping. This would provide an excellent expeditionary capability to support those operations.

Turkey is currently building the LHD Anadolu. Failing that another starting point could be Singaporean Endurance class.

Anadolu can accommodate 4 x LCM or 2 x LCAC landing craft in its docking well. It carries a mix of As532 medium size and CH-47F Chinook heavy utility/transport helicopters. When the aviation hangar and the light cargo garage are unified, the ship can carry up to 25 medium size helicopters. Alternatively, the ship can carry up to 12 F-35B and 12 helicopters. Six more helicopters can be hosted on the flight deck of the ship. Among these helicopters would be four T-129 attack helicopters and 2 SH-70B ASW helicopters. Additionally, the ship will have a 1,880m² light cargo garage for TEU containers and 27 Amphibious Assault Vehicles (AAV-P7/A1 aka LVTP-7) and a 1,410m² garage for heavy loads, which can host 29 Main Battle Tanks (MBT), Amphibious Assault Vehicles and TEU containers.

The Spanish Juan Carlos I, on which she is based, operates four LCM-1E in the docking well, and AV-8B Harrier II, Chinook, Sea King, NH-90 aircraft. Airwing composition:

• Pure combat: 25 AV-8B/F-35B + 6 flight deck parking spots
• Mixed: 11 AV-8B + 12 NH90 + 6 flight deck parking spots
• Pure transport: 25 NH90 + 6 flight deck parking spots

Multi-functional garage and hangar space on two levels covers 6,000 m2 (65,000 sq ft), with capacity for 6,000 tonnes load on each level. Capacity is 913 soldiers + up to 46 Leopard 2E tanks.

Australian Canbarra class
Capacity:

• Up to 110 vehicles
• Heavy vehicle deck: 1,410 m2 (15,200 sq ft)
• Light vehicle deck: 1,880 m2 (20,200 sq ft)

Troops:

• 1,046 standard
• 1,600 overload

Landingcraft carried: 4 × LCM-1E
Aircraft carried:

• 8 helicopters (standard)
• 18 helicopters (maximum hangar space)

Given the troop number of the Pakistani Marines, the extremely limited expeditionary capability (some on ex-Dutch Poolster class AOR PNS Moawin, plus 2 or so LCMs), Pakistan would be better off with e.g. 2 ships along the lines of the Singaporean Endurcance class (also used by Royal Thai Navy) or the South Korean designed, Indonesian built Makassar class LPDs. Or the Italian San Giorgio class (the two oldest vessels of this class - San Giorgio and San Marco - are scheduled for replacement and could be acquired used).

 

[HannibalBarca]

Anadolu can accommodate 4 x LCM or 2 x LCAC landing craft in its docking well. It carries a mix of As532 medium size and CH-47F Chinook heavy utility/transport helicopters. When the aviation hangar and the light cargo garage are unified, the ship can carry up to 25 medium size helicopters. Alternatively, the ship can carry up to 12 F-35B and 12 helicopters. Six more helicopters can be hosted on the flight deck of the ship. Among these helicopters would be four T-129 attack helicopters and 2 SH-70B ASW helicopters. Additionally, the ship will have a 1,880m² light cargo garage for TEU containers and 27 Amphibious Assault Vehicles (AAV-P7/A1 aka LVTP-7) and a 1,410m² garage for heavy loads, which can host 29 Main Battle Tanks (MBT), Amphibious Assault Vehicles and TEU containers.

The Spanish Juan Carlos I, on which she is based, operates four LCM-1E in the docking well, and AV-8B Harrier II, Chinook, Sea King, NH-90 aircraft. Airwing composition:

• Pure combat: 25 AV-8B/F-35B + 6 flight deck parking spots
• Mixed: 11 AV-8B + 12 NH90 + 6 flight deck parking spots
• Pure transport: 25 NH90 + 6 flight deck parking spots

Multi-functional garage and hangar space on two levels covers 6,000 m2 (65,000 sq ft), with capacity for 6,000 tonnes load on each level. Capacity is 913 soldiers + up to 46 Leopard 2E tanks.

Australian Canbarra class
Capacity:

• Up to 110 vehicles
• Heavy vehicle deck: 1,410 m2 (15,200 sq ft)
• Light vehicle deck: 1,880 m2 (20,200 sq ft)

Troops:

• 1,046 standard
• 1,600 overload

Landingcraft carried: 4 × LCM-1E
Aircraft carried:

• 8 helicopters (standard)
• 18 helicopters (maximum hangar space)

Given the troop number of the Pakistani Marines, the extremely limited expeditionary capability (some on ex-Dutch Poolster class AOR PNS Moawin, plus 2 or so LCMs), Pakistan would be better off with e.g. 2 ships along the lines of the Singaporean Endurcance class (also used by Royal Thai Navy) or the South Korean designed, Indonesian built Makassar class LPDs. Or the Italian San Giorgio class (the two oldest vessels of this class - San Giorgio and San Marco - are scheduled for replacement and could be acquired used).

Makassar ones are better and cheaper.

 

[Hassan Guy]

Anadolu can accommodate 4 x LCM or 2 x LCAC landing craft in its docking well. It carries a mix of As532 medium size and CH-47F Chinook heavy utility/transport helicopters. When the aviation hangar and the light cargo garage are unified, the ship can carry up to 25 medium size helicopters. Alternatively, the ship can carry up to 12 F-35B and 12 helicopters. Six more helicopters can be hosted on the flight deck of the ship. Among these helicopters would be four T-129 attack helicopters and 2 SH-70B ASW helicopters. Additionally, the ship will have a 1,880m² light cargo garage for TEU containers and 27 Amphibious Assault Vehicles (AAV-P7/A1 aka LVTP-7) and a 1,410m² garage for heavy loads, which can host 29 Main Battle Tanks (MBT), Amphibious Assault Vehicles and TEU containers.

The Spanish Juan Carlos I, on which she is based, operates four LCM-1E in the docking well, and AV-8B Harrier II, Chinook, Sea King, NH-90 aircraft. Airwing composition:

• Pure combat: 25 AV-8B/F-35B + 6 flight deck parking spots
• Mixed: 11 AV-8B + 12 NH90 + 6 flight deck parking spots
• Pure transport: 25 NH90 + 6 flight deck parking spots

Multi-functional garage and hangar space on two levels covers 6,000 m2 (65,000 sq ft), with capacity for 6,000 tonnes load on each level. Capacity is 913 soldiers + up to 46 Leopard 2E tanks.

Australian Canbarra class
Capacity:

• Up to 110 vehicles
• Heavy vehicle deck: 1,410 m2 (15,200 sq ft)
• Light vehicle deck: 1,880 m2 (20,200 sq ft)

Troops:

• 1,046 standard
• 1,600 overload

Landingcraft carried: 4 × LCM-1E
Aircraft carried:

• 8 helicopters (standard)
• 18 helicopters (maximum hangar space)

Given the troop number of the Pakistani Marines, the extremely limited expeditionary capability (some on ex-Dutch Poolster class AOR PNS Moawin, plus 2 or so LCMs), Pakistan would be better off with e.g. 2 ships along the lines of the Singaporean Endurcance class (also used by Royal Thai Navy) or the South Korean designed, Indonesian built Makassar class LPDs. Or the Italian San Giorgio class (the two oldest vessels of this class - San Giorgio and San Marco - are scheduled for replacement and could be acquired used).

Makassar ones are better and cheaper.

Or HMS Ocean, which is like $75million.
http://thediplomat.com/2017/04/will-hms-ocean-find-a-buyer-in-asia/

 

[Muhammad Omar]

We are Lacking Frigates and Corvettes and some people want Helicopter carriers

 

[Hassan Guy]

We are Lacking Frigates and Corvettes and some people want Helicopter carriers

In fairness HMS Ocean(for what its being sold for) is less than half the cost of a single F-22p.

Now India has a far more larger and advanced submarine fleet than Pakistan.
Gonna need more anti-sub warfare helicopters (which joint development and local production should be pursued)

Z-9EC
So you can see the role a carrier would play.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

If Pakistan wants a carrier capability or any kind it wouldn't be a bad idea to start off with a helicopter carrier and some amphibious support ships.

My reason for this suggestion is a Pakistan is one of the largest contributors of personnel to UN Peacekeeping. This would provide an excellent expeditionary capability to support those operations.

Turkey is currently building the LHD Anadolu. Failing that another starting point could be Singaporean Endurance class.

LHDs are unsustainable at this stage. IMO if the PN wants to build an expeditionary force, it would want to start with LPDs. Be it UN peacekeeping missions or supporting allies, its main focus would be to push personnel, vehicles and supplies to operational areas. Pakistan doesn't yet have the aviation strength to spare many helicopters for overseas, but a 30-40 light armoured vehicles, <500 soldiers and 6 helicopters are doable.

This LPD design from STM (Turkey) could be neat:

 

[Muhammad Omar]

In fairness HMS Ocean(for what its being sold for) is less than half the cost of a single F-22p.

Now India has a far more larger and advanced submarine fleet than Pakistan.
Gonna need more anti-sub warfare helicopters (which joint development and local production should be pursued)
View attachment 392332 Z-9EC
So you can see the role a carrier would play.

How Many years that's gonna last 5 6 ?? For Ant Sub Warfare we need Corvettes

 

[HannibalBarca]

LHDs are unsustainable at this stage. IMO if the PN wants to build an expeditionary force, it would want to start with LPDs. Be it UN peacekeeping missions or supporting allies, its main focus would be to push personnel, vehicles and supplies to operational areas. Pakistan doesn't yet have the aviation strength to spare many helicopters for overseas, but a 30-40 light armoured vehicles, <500 soldiers and 6 helicopters are doable.

This LPD design from STM (Turkey) could be neat:

View attachment 392336

Idea on the Price?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Idea on the Price?

The near comparable Tarlac-class LPD sold to the Philippines by Indonesia cost around $100m a ship. I think this STM LPD would cost $125-$150m.

 

[HannibalBarca]

The near comparable Tarlac-class LPD sold to the Philippines by Indonesia cost around $100m a ship. I think this STM LPD would cost $125-$150m.

Well not that Cheap... for the little use that thing can bring...

 

[fitpOsitive]

we already have father of every weapon gues what?

I thought it was mother.