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$1 billion civil, military aid for Pakistan

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@Jungibaaz @Tameem

I am still awaiting your views on why Pakistan keeps asking for more aid when they have not delivered what they were paid for to-date. By some estimates as much as 75% of social welfare and education aid is also stolen away for use in support of terrorist thugs. Since you seem to want to stop receiving additional aid, explain why your governments (all of them) disagree with you?
 
@Jungibaaz @Tameem

I am still awaiting your views on why Pakistan keeps asking for more aid when they have not delivered what they were paid for to-date. By some estimates as much as 75% of social welfare and education aid is also stolen away for use in support of terrorist thugs. Since you seem to want to stop receiving additional aid, explain why your governments (all of them) disagree with you?

What a load of utter bull-

Pakistan requests more aid because it is a 3rd world nation, who's economy is badly beaten due to mismanagement and cyclical issues, who's suffered untold tens of billions of dollars of damage in this civil war. And you ask why we ask for more pittance?

Also we have delivered, a staggering amount, we've killed the enemy by their tens of thousands, lost as many of our own doing it, regained most of our territory back and have completely compromised the sanctuaries that used to belong to the likes of the Taliban and Haqqani Network. So far, we've been the most successful party in this war.

I would also like to ask some sort of source for your claim about '75% of social welfare and education aid is also stolen away for use in support of terrorist thugs.'..... I know being Indian and all, you kind of take this bs for granted when it comes to Pak. But you're here, on an international forum with Pakistani owners and members, if you're going to accuse us of something and then not provide evidence, I will see it as trolling, and unnecessary provocation. Let that be a first and last warning, it's one thing to be contributing nothing, another to troll and shitpost without repercussions.
 
@Jungibaaz - your feigned indignation is quite comical. level of immoral corruption in how Pakistan uses aid money is quite admitted and well documented. All you need to do is google it. But then you won't because you may actually have to face some nuggets of truth which you steadfastly have trained yourself to avoid lest it interferes with your vaporous nonsense.

The funny thing is government steals from military, military steals from the government and from itself...the only thing both seem to really collaborate on is how to cheat and lie their way to more aid from us.Click and read "Pakistan continued to receive around $80 million per month for military operations during ceasefire periods when troops were in their barracks." -


BBC NEWS | South Asia | Musharraf admits US aid diverted
Specific examples of corruption in the Pakistani army (click & search in-doc for phrase)
Pentagon: Pakistan terror aid diverted - UPI.com
Pentagon: Pakistan Terror Aid Diverted | War Is A Crime .org

also click & search in-doc for:
Sadly, the Pakistani military and its intelligence body, the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), have a historical record of corruption and profiteering.47 Experts estimate that the Pakistani military, which forms a major part of Pakistan’s economy through businesses known as “welfare foundations”, could own assets worth $14 billion. Of the ninety-six businesses run by the four largest foundations, only nine file public accounts, and demands by Pakistan’s parliament for greater accountability have been rejected.48 The government has historically failed to get the ISI to even report to the Interior Ministry and has no institutional checks over either organization. These conditions combined with U.S. military aid incentivize theft.
 
@Jungibaaz - your feigned indignation is quite comical. level of immoral corruption in how Pakistan uses aid money is quite admitted and well documented. All you need to do is google it. But then you won't because you may actually have to face some nuggets of truth which you steadfastly have trained yourself to avoid lest it interferes with your vaporous nonsense.

The funny thing is government steals from military, military steals from the government and from itself...the only thing both seem to really collaborate on is how to cheat and lie their way to more aid from us.Click and read "Pakistan continued to receive around $80 million per month for military operations during ceasefire periods when troops were in their barracks." -


BBC NEWS | South Asia | Musharraf admits US aid diverted
Specific examples of corruption in the Pakistani army (click & search in-doc for phrase)
Pentagon: Pakistan terror aid diverted - UPI.com
Pentagon: Pakistan Terror Aid Diverted | War Is A Crime .org

also click & search in-doc for:
Sadly, the Pakistani military and its intelligence body, the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), have a historical record of corruption and profiteering.47 Experts estimate that the Pakistani military, which forms a major part of Pakistan’s economy through businesses known as “welfare foundations”, could own assets worth $14 billion. Of the ninety-six businesses run by the four largest foundations, only nine file public accounts, and demands by Pakistan’s parliament for greater accountability have been rejected.48 The government has historically failed to get the ISI to even report to the Interior Ministry and has no institutional checks over either organization. These conditions combined with U.S. military aid incentivize theft.

Okay so let me get this straight, you went from saying and I quote you now:

@Jungibaaz @Tameem

Blah blahh.... By some estimates as much as 75% of social welfare and education aid is also stolen away for use in support of terrorist thugs.

I've skimmed through all the links you provided, where is the proof or source for the above statement, instead you have provided links as to how some aid is diverted to higher military acquisition, as is our right, and how some of it is shifted around by shifty politicians and generals. This we already I know. It is not new to me that big names and fat cats often siphon off funds meant not for them, this is not news to us.

Where, oh where is the proof for the part in bold.

I am more than capable to find some links on google that make the case that Pak should stop receiving aid and how aid in general should be lessened, and I know the arguments for that, I also happened to know what happens to the aid when it gets here. You say it's wasted away in corruption? I agree. It's spent on India centric weapons acquisition? I say of course, I agree. But to say it's used to support terrorist thugs. I want a source or I want your rubbish off the forum.

Now gimme a source for THAT, specifically, and quote it. And refer back to this quote.

Also, now for a little explanation on the military acquisition, it does not surprise me that funds are diverted. I want you to note, there are more than two kinds of aid granted to Pakistan. The first is economic aid (many secondary categories under this), the second is military aid and the third falls under it's own category, the Coalition Support Fund. Now the CSF is reimbursement, it is paying Pakistan back for it's role in the war on terror, that includes the reimbursement for costs of war, troop deployment, forward base operations, fuel, vehicles, losses, ammunition, you name it. We've spent billions more on the war than we've received, you can bet that is the case. We fight our war not on the basis of when funds are arriving but continuously, and if you want it to continue, you have to keep filling the empty coffers even if the money is siphoned off. Now is it unreasonable for Pakistan to maintain a certain level of defensive ability against India? Of course, it will do so, with or without US aid and assistance, but it has had to since about 2004, divert funds from weapons acquisitions front on to costs of war. The link I give you here is old, and dates back to 2011, the damage is actually underestimated in that article and is now far greater. So Pakistan isn't really 'diverting' more like trying it's best to fill the gaping holes the war has left in other troubling areas.

Now that we're talking about history, let's talk about the Harvard document you posted here, the only real thing that I disagree with in there is it's many concerns about the effectiveness of the Pakistani counter insurgency doctrine and aid. This article dates back to 2009. Ask any reasonably informed Pakistani member the true context of the document you dug up which is now pushing 6 years old... This was at the time from where in 2008, the Taliban had reached the Swat valley. In this context the bleak nature and lack of optimism of the document is well placed, but today, things are very different.

This map isn't exactly accurate, and misses out many key details, overestimates taliban influence ins some areas, but this is KPK province probably around 2008. The context of the document you provided. KPK it's an entire province and it makes up a huge chunk of land.

NWFP-redmap-01232008.jpg

source: http://www.longwarjournal.org/

In this map, the situation looks dire, because it was, hence the document you provided is given proper context, however, today, for you to deny that any progress has been made... See the above map? Most of it would now be green, possibly a few of the red ones would be yellow, and there would be NO red parts, only contested control. Only in summer last year, was the final stronghold of the taliban, North Waziristan attacked by the security forces. Operation Zarb e Azb, you can find threads about it on this forum. This was the last stronghold of the taliban and it is now being cleared.

And we did this on a tight budget, with peanuts occasionally flicked our way. In fact, before 2009, it was quoted that $18 billion dollars were given by Congress to Pakistan, also quoted in your links, this is false, $18 billion were proposed, the harvard link of yours takes the proposed numbers and parades them as final amount delivered, this is utterly false:

By the own source that the author used from Appendix III, the CSF is quotes and only two values are shows, requested and initially allowed, not delivered.


Also, remember, this is CSF, it is what we are entitled to for our support, for the use of our airbases, for the use of Karachi Harbour, for the intel co-operation, and use of Pakistani infrastructure, and this dates back to 2001-2002. it becomes a whole other story when we get involved in the war itself.

So, of the funds that are requested, a percentage is denied, and the figure is reduced, then there is congressional approval and obligated funds figure further cut, and then lastly there is how much is actually released as funds, and this is a hugely reduced. Also, the very last remainign parts of it are usually used by US consultancy firms and contractors.

So only a mere fraction of the proposed peanuts actually get to Pakistan, and then, some is taken by corruption, a lot of it is used to cover up, huge gaping deficits ran by the war, and it's economic impact, some of it is used to maintain a level of defence with India. Is it any wonder then, that people are stupidly led to believe that if $18 billion was quoted, all of it was misspent, no that's a farce, only a fraction of it got here, and it was nothing even to begin with.

So, this entire argument of aid being misused is a joke to begin with, the only misuse is the corruption by the Elite of Pakistan and the legal corruption that occurs in the US before it gets here. And what is promised... it is pittance compared to the actual costs to Pakistan, and what is delivered is a mere speck of said pittance.

And yet, we've done more in our own war, than all the forces of the West, in their trillions of dollars combined managed while fighting a civil war as a third world nation.
 
@Jungibaaz - you are proud of your performance in your war? a war where you created the enemy, you sustained them with our money while feigning to be working with us. If that's what makes you proud, sure go for it.

You also so easily dismiss misdirection of money as your right to divert. No, not when you want us to pay for it. Why does the simple fact elude you that when you take money to perform a particular service and instead use it for something else without our permission, it is called scamming. May be that's something else you are proud of.

Yet another very simple instance fo near 100% fraud: Pakistan is supposed to be reimburse only for and only to the extent Pakistani troops are used. Instead Pakistan repeatedly invoiced us for in-barrack periods! It is like the whole armed services behaving like a cheap clerk turning in a false expense report.

SO let's see - we cannot trust you when it comes to goals, strategies, tactics, even accounting! Sure makes one proud
 
@Jungibaaz - you are proud of your performance in your war?

Yes, we've has more success than you. Despite a much harder task with far less resources and fighting at home.
Today only maybe a small chunk of Pakistani territory is contested by the taliban. In comparison, you in all your might, going at it for 13 years and more than half of Afghanistan is either under the control of Mullah Omar or contested. And Iraq is being ravaged by a foe worse than Al Qaeda, so yes, when compared to you, we're super successful.

a war where you created the enemy,

We didn't create the many, many tribes, factions, war lords, drug lords and nut jobs, of which one happened to be the taliban. The Soviet invasion, the decade long war, the war against Najibullah, and the two civil wars made the Taliban of the 90's. The US' war on terror made the Taliban of today.

you sustained them with our money while feigning to be working with us. If that's what makes you proud, sure go for it.

You have been issued a warning.


Remember what I said about falsely accusing and no evidence, and argument, yeah that's right. That wasn't an empty threat.

You also so easily dismiss misdirection of money as your right to divert.

I agree that money is wrongly diverted at times, and it is wrongly eaten up by the Elite. I disagree with you if you say all diversion of funds is wrong, fact is, CSF is reimbursement and we'll do with as we please. Buying F-16's? Sure India centric, but those same jets were the ones that were used against the Taliban in airstrikes.

5,000 TOW missiles? India centric? Sure, more now might be needed after how extensively they've been used against the taliban.

If we fight a crippling war on an indefinite basis and funds are made available to keep us carrying on the war and keeping our necks above water (which is in the US' interests), then we'll divert it to where it's needed most.

That is IF even 20% of the initially quoted funds are ever received.

No, not when you want us to pay for it. Why does the simple fact elude you that when you take money to perform a particular service and instead use it for something else without our permission, it is called scamming. May be that's something else you are proud of.

CSF go look it up sunshine. Also, this war was your misadventure, a HUGE amount of the aid that is quoted is reimbursement, reparations and payment for services. Of which only a fraction is released.

Enough with your incessant stupidity.

Yet another very simple instance fo near 100% fraud: Pakistan is supposed to be reimburse only for and only to the extent Pakistani troops are used. Instead Pakistan repeatedly invoiced us for in-barrack periods! It is like the whole armed services behaving like a cheap clerk turning in a false expense report.

You have any idea what it means for troops to be deployed? It does not mean that fighting is occurring or operations being conducted. It can mean anything from troops being made ready to deploy, actually moved to forward operating bases, or even as something as abstract airstrikes, border patrol, operating air and land vehicles either for sweeping what territory you have or striking the enemy in offensive.

Deployment costs billions. Pakistan for years has been deploying tens of thousands of troops, who need to be fed clothed, given ammunition, paid for their services, and if death and martyrdom do take them. Ammunition and fuel for helicopters, tanks, jets, and personnel carriers. Building of roads and infrastructure to support troops and locals, clearing taliban hideouts. Maintenance of vehicles of all sorts that require servicing on hourly use basis. Spare parts and replacement costs.

Costs for damaged infrastructure by militants. This is also unfortunately the army's job, they've built schools, roads, hospitals, barracks, homes worth many millions... after of course the militants caused the area billions worth of damage.

Again talking out of your backside.

SO let's see - we cannot trust you when it comes to goals, strategies, tactics, even accounting! Sure makes one proud

Spoken like a true Indian friend from across the fence, know-it-alls when it comes to Pakistan. Those flags aren't fooling anyone bub, only maybe one or two Indians on this forum who know a thing or two about us.
 
Yes, we've has more success than you. Despite a much harder task with far less resources and fighting at home.
Today only maybe a small chunk of Pakistani territory is contested by the taliban. In comparison, you in all your might, going at it for 13 years and more than half of Afghanistan is either under the control of Mullah Omar or contested. And Iraq is being ravaged by a foe worse than Al Qaeda, so yes, when compared to you, we're super successful.



We didn't create the many, many tribes, factions, war lords, drug lords and nut jobs, of which one happened to be the taliban. The Soviet invasion, the decade long war, the war against Najibullah, and the two civil wars made the Taliban of the 90's. The US' war on terror made the Taliban of today.



You have been issued a warning.


Remember what I said about falsely accusing and no evidence, and argument, yeah that's right. That wasn't an empty threat.



I agree that money is wrongly diverted at times, and it is wrongly eaten up by the Elite. I disagree with you if you say all diversion of funds is wrong, fact is, CSF is reimbursement and we'll do with as we please. Buying F-16's? Sure India centric, but those same jets were the ones that were used against the Taliban in airstrikes.

5,000 TOW missiles? India centric? Sure, more now might be needed after how extensively they've been used against the taliban.

If we fight a crippling war on an indefinite basis and funds are made available to keep us carrying on the war and keeping our necks above water (which is in the US' interests), then we'll divert it to where it's needed most.

That is IF even 20% of the initially quoted funds are ever received.



CSF go look it up sunshine. Also, this war was your misadventure, a HUGE amount of the aid that is quoted is reimbursement, reparations and payment for services. Of which only a fraction is released.

Enough with your incessant stupidity.



You have any idea what it means for troops to be deployed? It does not mean that fighting is occurring or operations being conducted. It can mean anything from troops being made ready to deploy, actually moved to forward operating bases, or even as something as abstract airstrikes, border patrol, operating air and land vehicles either for sweeping what territory you have or striking the enemy in offensive.

Deployment costs billions. Pakistan for years has been deploying tens of thousands of troops, who need to be fed clothed, given ammunition, paid for their services, and if death and martyrdom do take them. Ammunition and fuel for helicopters, tanks, jets, and personnel carriers. Building of roads and infrastructure to support troops and locals, clearing taliban hideouts. Maintenance of vehicles of all sorts that require servicing on hourly use basis. Spare parts and replacement costs.

Costs for damaged infrastructure by militants. This is also unfortunately the army's job, they've built schools, roads, hospitals, barracks, homes worth many millions... after of course the militants caused the area billions worth of damage.

Again talking out of your backside.



Spoken like a true Indian friend from across the fence, know-it-alls when it comes to Pakistan. Those flags aren't fooling anyone bub, only maybe one or two Indians on this forum who know a thing or two about us.


The tribes are not your enemies - it is the jihadi terrorist groups that are. Those were created, nursed and todate admittedly sustained by your your military. The very fact you consider the tribes to be your enemies shows the mentality behind the nonsense.

No, when I give you money to perform a specific service and you take it under that condition, you do not have the right to divert it for anything else without my permission. The CSF reimbursement fund is not what I am talking about. Pakistan has a sordid and now proven history of taking money from us for work related to counter-insurgency against ai qaeda and using it for nuclear weapons. In fact they have been decieiptful to the extent of even diverting flood and earthquake donations (read Pakistani officials admitting it)

What false accusations? I've shown you all necessary evidence and I very much doubt anyone can be that thick as to not get it even after that. That leaves only one possibility - you wantonly do not want to admit it and the natural reaction of someone like you who cannot admit the truth is to issue bluster out a warning!

Did you not really understand the dishonorable aspects of fraudulent invoicing? or did you not read the part about taking money from us and not even providing boots to your soldiers? If you really are supportive of your soldiers you wouldn't be trying to defend the undefendable. yet that's what you do and it is a pathetic failure.

Go ahead issue the warning, while I go enjoy my single malt.
 
The tribes are not your enemies - it is the jihadi terrorist groups that are. Those were created, nursed and todate admittedly sustained by your your military. The very fact you consider the tribes to be your enemies shows the mentality behind the nonsense.

wtf? Where did I say tribes were our enemy, or tribal people, what a load of nonsense, quote me if you dare.
In this thread or anywhere on the forum where I've said anything against tribes in general or tribal people.

You got some pretty serious form of schizo to be coming up with such stuff again and again.

No, when I give you money to perform a specific service and you take it under that condition, you do not have the right to divert it for anything else without my permission.

Firstly, a lot of it was our money to begin with, secondly, most of the money that was both ours and given to us out of pity and incentive also went hand in hand with allowing us funds to fight the war without crippling the economy further and diverting funds even more.

The entire argument of diverting aid is void, long before aid is delivered, funds within the Pakistani system earn either through debt or the taxpayer are already shifted around due to the costs of war and economic impacts of this sort of civil war. To say that some portions of the money in aid are then moved around, is like stating the obvious. I see nothing wrong with it, given the costs and how little the aid makes a difference. I see as little payment for the trouble

The CSF reimbursement fund is not what I am talking about. Pakistan has a sordid and now proven history of taking money from us for work related to counter-insurgency against ai qaeda and using it for nuclear weapons. In fact they have been decieiptful to the extent of even diverting flood and earthquake donations (read Pakistani officials admitting it)

Again, the link you provided tells us about how it istaken and diverted into the coffers of corrupt politicians. We know that, and in fact, corruption is a big issue in Pakistan. But to accuse us of supporting terror with it.

Quote the damn article exactly where it says that.

What false accusations? I've shown you all necessary evidence and I very much doubt anyone can be that thick as to not get it even after that. That leaves only one possibility - you wantonly do not want to admit it and the natural reaction of someone like you who cannot admit the truth is to issue bluster out a warning!

Listen here.

I am losing my patience with you...

and it's exceedingly difficult not to insult such ignoramuses.

NONE of your links, NONE talk about diverting funds SPECIFICALLY to terrorists. NONE!
Not one, did you even read your own damn links?


IF they did, then quote them explicitly next time, otherwise prepare for a real warning because I've verbally warned you 3 times about polluting this forum, wasting my time and falsely accusing.

Did you not really understand the dishonorable aspects of fraudulent invoicing? or did you not read the part about taking money from us and not even providing boots to your soldiers?

Yes and yes, and I addressed both, no apologies for one, explanation for another.
If YOU were too thick to get it in to your head, that's a problem on your end, not mine.

If you really are supportive of your soldiers you wouldn't be trying to defend the undefendable. yet that's what you do and it is a pathetic failure.

Only thing pathetic is you pretending know anything and then pretending to be right.

It's utterly pathetic, and very annoying.

Go ahead issue the warning, while I go enjoy my single malt.

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As you wish, you have been warned, think with whatever mental capacity you can spare for the next reply.
 
@Jungibaaz I should stop expecting even the remotest sense of intelligence or honesty from you. if even after the specific links I have given you have not gotten through to you, as I suspected before, you must be one of those who do not WANT to come out of the web of idiocies you suffer within.

bTW what's with this warning nonsense? Aren't you ashamed that when your pathetic nature is exposed you resort some sort of cyber extremism such as this? don't kid yourself, you are still a very tiny person.
 
@Jungibaaz I should stop expecting even the remotest sense of intelligence or honesty from you. if even after the specific links I have given you have not gotten through to you, as I suspected before, you must be one of those who do not WANT to come out of the web of idiocies you suffer within.

bTW what's with this warning nonsense? Aren't you ashamed that when your pathetic nature is exposed you resort some sort of cyber extremism such as this? don't kid yourself, you are still a very tiny person.

Listen here, you're truly dishonest, and it has been my uttermost displeasure conversing with dishonest lowlife trolls.
And for the needless provocation, useless garbage and low key attacks you try and pull, I won't tolerate your nonsense. You're neither worth my time, nor worth the oxygen you're consuming when typing up replies and thinking out of your backside.
 
Listen here, you're truly dishonest, and it has been my uttermost displeasure conversing with dishonest lowlife trolls.
And for the needless provocation, useless garbage and low key attacks you try and pull, I won't tolerate your nonsense. You're neither worth my time, nor worth the oxygen you're consuming when typing up replies and thinking out of your backside.

unfortunately, such feigned indignation cannot shield your dense dishonest attitude and behavior. if you post anything with substance, I will respond when I feel necessary, otherwise, poof and shoo.
 
unfortunately, such feigned indignation cannot shield your dense dishonest attitude and behavior. if you post anything with substance, I will respond when I feel necessary, otherwise, poof and shoo.

Dishonest charade, being a waste of space and waste of time you are.
 
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