Karachi's affluent women bring Islam into their lives and lifestyles (NYT)

[Zibago]

That's what happens when you have no arguments left.

What does my currently living in US has to do with my arguments and facts on the ground? Reply to my posts and dissect it--why deflect the issue by hiding behind "Yar ye to hai hi US mein"

I live in US and Pakistan. My stay in US has to do with few things related to my livelihood. Majority of my last 15 years were in Pakistan..where I lived and worked in Lahore, Wah Cantt, Southern Punjab, Khanewal, Multan, Nowshera etc for over a decade.


But but but...you will not reply to facts being shown because oh iski ID pe to US ka flag hai

Grow up and learn to discuss things and not the person, baji

You lived in Pakistan for 15 years yet you couldnot see the changes and contradictions in the Pakistani society

You are not interested in fact based discussion you resorting to personal attacks in the other thread proved your intentions oh and i lived in Sialkot,Mirpur,Haripur,Abbotabad,Lahore,Hyderabad,Islamabad,Rahim Yar Khan

Islam is growing thanks to policies of west. The more attack the more it will grow and these soft **** stars othewise known as showbiz people there actions also increase the reaction that is number of Hijab in women I study in University and I also see girls changing. First comers Duppatta and than scarf than Hijab and some go for Hijab directly. It will keep growing because it's the destiny no matter How much liberal fundos and enemies of Islam try to stop it

Co education is Haram

 

[AUz]

You lived in Pakistan for 15 years yet you couldnot see the changes and contradictions in the Pakistani society

I lived in Pakistan far more than 15 years. I was just talking about 'last 15 years'...

Also, every society has contradictions and changes over time. I don't understand what's your point.

I remember the days when Pakistan was extremely 'liberal' and you'd even find girls (mostly foreign) wearing scantly clad clothes on Karachi beaches. The general environment of the country was much more relaxed and you'd very rarely see any woman wearing duppatta on their head in Karachi's Middle class areas. Lahore was the same but to lesser extent. Attitudes towards alcohol, pre-marital romantic relationships etc were very nonchalant

But even in those days, Pakistanis never saw themselves as a Western wanna be secular country. Even then, we all had this sense of belonging to an Islamic Republic with a purpose. Guess what? Even in those days...the idea of "Muslim Ummah" was very much part of Pakistan's psyche (And Bhutto even tried to capitalize on it years later).

THAT is what you and your burger bunch do not understand. Culture swings as a pendulum. It went from early 60's to what we see today (much more outwardly Islamic). And pendulum might swing back because of all the wars and bloodshed, development, internet, and so on (Although that swing won't be to 60's level, seemingly). But cultural swings happen within confined principles and structures of a given civilization and for us, those principles and structures for us are defined by Islam, our Muslim values, our constitutional Islamic democracy, and so on.

People like you, Asma Jahangir, Marvi Sirmed etc etc seem to be in delusion that they can change the fundamental confines of our nationhood because they watched few documentaries on Western secularism and seem to think that they can implement similar liberal-secular mode of life in Pakistan

That is where you and your burger ilk are in a bubble and making a living fool out of yourself...and refuse to acknowledge that.

I'd give you one example just from today: You see lots of shor sharaba regarding social media and how it's that and this and blah blah and it will change Pakistan forever and what not.

Did you know only 14% of Pakistanis use social media? And out of those, 99% would never even go to pages that are trying to spread "the change" in society..so basically, 98% of Pakistani population do not even know what we are talking about here---because they couldn't even care less about your idea of change.

Secondly, look at this picture.

Do you know in last three days since it's been upload, this picture has been shared 50,000+ times from just one page (Orya Maqbool Jaan--Live). And this picture has been shared on multiple other pages.

Here's the deal: Go to facebook and see content of 10 of the top so called "secular change pushing pages" ...All of their content for past year...combined...did not get 50,000+ 'shares' on facebook.And again, this is social media where mainly those with internet connection, knowledge of facebook, and some grasp of English language come for exchange of ideas. In real Pakistan, traditional ideas about life, family, culture, Islam etc are 1000000x more mainstream than idiotic western wanna be losers' secular views on FB/defence.pk

People who want to see a secular, Islam-less, irreligious, liberal-hedonistic westernized Pakistan do not even constitute 2% of Pakistan's total population.

THAT is the level of small bubble these pages and their supporters like you live in.

 

[Pakistani E]

Btw just asking - do you know of a religious group called Qadiyanis? Its a heretical group that does NOT even believe in the finality of our beloved Prophet Muhammad (peace & blessings of Allah be upon him), but they masquerade as Muslims in western countries like Australia. I hope you don't get your information about Islam and Muslims from them. They believe in a kadhdhab (liar) called Mirza Gulam who was a gulam (slave) of the british raj and they virulently hate Islam and muslims.

I support Pakistanis learning more about their religion. I don't have an issue with the contents of the article and support my Pakistani Muslim sisters striving in their efforts to learn about Islam themselves and not relying on men to tell them what to do.

As for your rant against Ahmadis, well people always try to say I bring up Ahmadis in too many of my posts, well if someone has indigestion and keeps bringing it up randomly, I will obviously educate them. So let me educate you on a few things, back when Pakistan was riding the "liberal and secular" wave mentioned by another user, Ahmadi Muslim women were the majority ones amongst the educated members of the society who proudly wore Burqah, Ahmadi Muslim women have been doing what other Muslim women have just started doing like mentioned in the above article, for over a hundred years.

Ahmadi women already have full control over their affairs and have been operating autonomously for decades, back when most Muslim women in what is now Pakistan were not even allowed to enter mosques, and some still aren't. Ahmadi Muslim women were holding their own seminars, classes and events when even most men in what is now Pakistan could not even read Arabic. Even today go to any Ahmadi majority/significant populated area in Pakistan and you will find that 99% of people there do full purdah but are still highly educated, independent and run their own affairs.

I support the contents of this article because even today I have female relatives in Pakistan who are having difficulty getting jobs because the sarkari momins are telling them that you need to remove purdah in this line of work. This, in a so called Islamic country! So I support it if educated elite of Pakistan are pursuing Islamic studies, because atleast they then won't object to women doing purdah in "highly educated" type of work.

You on other hand know nothing about Pakistan or Ahmadis. I hardly venture out to comment on issues of Bangladesh because I am not familiar with it, a wise person refrains from speaking about things they have no knowledge about. Perhaps, one day you will do the same.

 

[Itachi]

Funny thing is that someone living in Amerika where their so call LIBERALS life style is more common than back home AND they happily living there, MUNAFIQAT ki koi boundary hai?

Dude, I'm from America and during all my life here (and some years in Pakistan) when I compare the 2 different types of Muslims here & back in Pakistan. To me & many of my own friends/relatives, Pakistani "liberals" outclass even American-born Pakistani liberals (or liberals moved to the US).

Why? Because there is a limit to everything but Pakistanis know no such limit. Whatever is dangled in front of them from the West is automatically 10x better than what their culture or religions offers.

Imo, Muslims in the West are 10x more religious than ones in Pakistan for we (Western Muslims) see disbelievers every day and social interactions lead to understanding which leads to the realization that whatever our culture & religion has to offer is 10x better than anything the West has to.

The only reason(s) why Muslims live in the West is because of the constant cesspool in countries like Egypt, Iraq & Pakistan, where our abilities are not used to their fullest (cheap wages, economic conditions, sectarianism, feudal systems, backwardness & backward minded people, etc).

Mark my words, the day Pakistan's situation is reversed, everyone from abroad will rush back & it will be because of them that Pakistan will continue to progress farther.

 

[Musafir117]

Dude, I'm from America and during all my life here (and some years in Pakistan) when I compare the 2 different types of Muslims here & back in Pakistan. To me & many of my own friends/relatives, Pakistani "liberals" outclass even American-born Pakistani liberals (or liberals moved to the US).

Why? Because there is a limit to everything but Pakistanis know no such limit. Whatever is dangled in front of them from the West is automatically 10x better than what their culture or religions offers.

Imo, Muslims in the West are 10x more religious than ones in Pakistan for we (Western Muslims) see disbelievers every day and social interactions lead to understanding which leads to the realization that whatever our culture & religion has to offer is 10x better than anything the West has to.

The only reason(s) why Muslims live in the West is because of the constant cesspool in countries like Egypt, Iraq & Pakistan, where our abilities are not used to their fullest (cheap wages, economic conditions, sectarianism, feudal systems, backwardness & backward minded people, etc).

Mark my words, the day Pakistan's situation is reversed, everyone from abroad will rush back & it will be because of them that Pakistan will continue to progress farther.

The guy I reference to @Zibago is a big time troller and that my post for him, I agree almost in your points, I love to discuss and respect other opinions if play fairly. See you around mate.

 

[Itachi]

See you around mate.

Oh, my apologies.

I thought the post was against @AUz

 

[Zibago]

The guy I reference to @Zibago is a big time troller and that my post for him, I agree almost in your points, I love to discuss and respect other opinions if play fairly. See you around mate.

Arey mujhay troller bana dala :-(
What i said is true if they think something cant work in west they shouldnt implement it here or do they think our people deserve the worst?


Btw the real troller is only interested in flame baiting nothing more

 

[Musafir117]

Arey mujhay troller bana dala :-(
What i said is true if they think something cant work in west they shouldnt implement it here or do they think our people deserve the worst?


Btw the real troller is only interested in flame baiting nothing more

No I didn't
I was referring Auz the troller Atachi get it wrong and I know OP's intention was trolling mode from start. Despite a serious and productive thread he start trolling from start.

 

[Itachi]

What i said is true if they think something cant work in west they shouldnt implement it here or do they think our people deserve the worst?

What can't work in the West? Islam?

FYI, just 2 weeks ago, 5 non-Muslims embraced the Shahada (at the local Islamic Center). And that's those who properly went through Islamic classes at the Islamic Center (Q/A, seminars, etc); 10 initially came for the Jummah Khutba.

There are millions out there who are completely ignorant about Islam in the West (as witnessed today) but believe me, if proper number of people started giving Dawah, you'll see the rise of Islam in the West not just by birth rate but also by conversion levels too.

Also, non-Muslims are already rapidly converting. So, if a couple thousand, or million Muslims want to leave Islam or stand in it's way, no worries. We got fresh blood coming in each day.

 

[Zibago]

What can't work in the West? Islam?

FYI, just 2 weeks ago, 5 non-Muslims embraced the Shahada (at the local Islamic Center). And that's those who properly went through Islamic classes at the Islamic Center (Q/A, seminars, etc); 10 initially came for the Jummah Khutba.

There are millions out there who are completely ignorant about Islam in the West (as witnessed today) but believe me, if proper number of people started giving Dawah, you'll see the rise of Islam in the West not just by birth rate but also by conversion levels too.

Also, non-Muslims are already rapidly converting. So, if a couple thousand, or million Muslims want to leave Islam or stand in it's way, no worries. We got fresh blood coming in each day.

I need to be clear in my points what i meant was things like death penalty for blasphemy and blood money

I dont know why my anti extremism comments are now being taken as anti religious?

 

[Itachi]

I dont know why my anti extremism comments are now being taken as anti religious?

What's wrong with the death penalty for blasphemy? If I may ask.

What's wrong with Diya (so called "Blood money"), would you rather implement Qisas (i.e. "equal retaliation" or "an eye for an eye"?)

Both come under Islamic Hududs. What's your alternative to the children killed in APS? Would you rather "forgive" the terrorists?

P.S> I see people using terms like "death penalty for blasphemy" or "blood money" without even knowing the contexts, rulings & history of these hududs.

 

[AUz]

What i said is true if they think something cant work in west they shouldnt implement it here or do they think our people deserve the worst?

LOL! Did you really just say that? That shows how stupid your views are and now shallow your understand of the world is.

Baji, every nation...every people...has their own historical and cultural experience. And due to that experience, they create laws for themselves, and live by their own culture...and develop a state that evolves around their culture, tastes, and lifestyle.

Now, if something does not work for West, does it mean it would also not work for us? And if something works for west--does it mean it will work for EVERYBODY?! Are you kidding me?

Take the notion of democratic elections. Works for West---doesn't work for African nations, Afghanistan, Pakistan etc. You know why? Because our experience is not similar to West. Hell, take China. Look at their system. It worked so brilliantly for Chinese that China created a modern miracle in economics! Yet, can Latin American countries just follow what China did...because afterall if it worked in China, why not Latin America? Yeah right, Chinese type economic and governmental model would collapse in a country like Brazil because of demographic, social, cultural, and historical issues---since experience of China was not same as Brazil's.

This is such a basic point that I'm actually surprised that I even have to break it down for you.

Now coming to Pakistan, we are not Westerners. Majority of westerns do not believe in religion at all today. They are genuinely okay with irreligious hedonistic life style. Even those in West who are 'christians' are called christians for mainly cultural reasons. Western society isn't religious. In Pakistan, it's opposite. We ARE are religious people and community. Our state was made on the name of religion. Unlike West, we follow Islam--a religion that exerts far great influence on its followers than say Christianity (which lost out to secularism). So if you have a state like West---but people/community like Pakistan--you'd have a huge problem. Because our lifestyle, culture, historical experience, religious beliefs etc etc are completely alien to what exists in West.

Pakistanis want to live an Islamic lifestyle, in an Islamic Republic where their kids grow up with Islamic identity. You can not force otherwise---because that is what creates tension in the society.

@Itachi will also agree with my points, I presume (even if he puts it in a different manner).

Those of us who actually live in West know the value of Pakistan and it's culture. We know the positive sides better than you folks who are just enamored by West mainly due to propaganda and cultural exports coming from Western world.

West's postive sides are it's meritocracy, justice system, education system, hardworking ethic etc. These are the things that we should learn from West's example....West's social culture is NOT something to import and implement in Pakistan. It'll be a disaster. You don't see this disaster of a social culture because unlike us, you haven't lived here and secondly, West is EXTREMELY wealthy so it has develop systems that can negate many bad impacts of it's social culture. But Western social culture combined with third world development status would be an absolute disaster.

What's wrong with the death penalty for blasphemy? If I may ask.

What's wrong with Diya (so called "Blood money"), would you rather implement Qisas (i.e. "equal retaliation" or "an eye for an eye"?)

Both come under Islamic Hududs. What's your alternative to the children killed in APS? Would you rather "forgive" the terrorists?

P.S> I see people using terms like "death penalty for blasphemy" or "blood money" without even knowing the contexts, rulings & history of these hududs.

You are too educated for her, bro.

She literally has NO clue about what's being discussed here. All she knows, like a typical burger of Pakistan, is: West is bestttttt, Pakistan sucksss! We need FREEEDOOOMMM like WESTTTT!!!

Seriously man, it's ironic how little they know

 

[Itachi]

@AUz Let's not get on anyone's bad side. We are Pakistani's. All us of.

No matter if you're a burger or a fry. (or a nugget ).

If @Zibago doesn't agree with you or me, then let's have a civil & humble conversation. No need to degrade each other.


P.S> I do agree with you but I just put my thoughts into much more amenable words (so as to not attract trolls & not hurt friends & fellow countrymen/women)

 

[Zibago]

What's wrong with the death penalty for blasphemy? If I may ask.

What's wrong with Diya (so called "Blood money"), would you rather implement Qisas (i.e. "equal retaliation" or "an eye for an eye"?)

Both come under Islamic Hududs. What's your alternative to the children killed in APS? Would you rather "forgive" the terrorists?

P.S> I see people using terms like "death penalty for blasphemy" or "blood money" without even knowing the contexts, rulings & history of these hududs.

Whats wrong with death penalty for blasphemy?
You need to know it yourself when the state encourages it we have things like Joseph Colony and Radhey Kishan

Whats wrong with Qisas and Diyat law?
Remember Sharukh Jatoi and Raymond Davis?
Conviction for murder fell after we implemented it only 3-4 countries in world Have blood money law and its abused in all of these countries its a loop hole for rich to escape justice

 

[AUz]

@AUz Let's not get on anyone's bad side. We are Pakistani's. All us of.

No matter if you're a burger or a fry. (or a nugget ).

If @Zibago doesn't agree with you or me, then let's have a civil & humble conversation. No need to degrade each other.


P.S> I do agree with you but I just put my thoughts into much more amenable words (so as to not attract trolls & not hurt friends & fellow countrymen/women)

haha I understand you.

But spend enough time in the forum---and you'll find out that these people are not looking for exchange of ideas in a healthy manner so we can all grow together intellectually. Many of these posters are extremely hell bent on pushing their "secular/liberal/not-Islamic Pakistan" agenda for God knows what reason. I have talked to them nicely, asked them to challenge me with facts, and believe me---they'll just 'move on' from discussion and few days later, they'll be opening multiple other threads pushing for de-Islamification of Pakistani state, promoting secularism as better alternative, and posters that you see on this page would even brand others as "village idiots" if they stand up for Pakistani values, and reject the notion of bending backwards to Westernization of our social culture.

So I guess best of luck to you in terms of engaging with them in a positive debate---believe me, I'll be surprised if they consider the logic and rationale of your arguments rather than just parroting their agenda-driven drivel of "secularism is best! Blasphemy sucks. Secular Pakistan is a must. Jinnah wanted secularism. Mullah brainwashed you. Wearing shorts in Pakistan by girls is a positive sign of freedom" and so on and on and on and on.

I suggest you to 'follow' few posters here for a month---and see what they post on consistent basis. You'd see a robotic pattern of sorts

We all have seen it (whether its me or other senior members that have been in this forum for a while)