PAF's Defensive Doctrine---Out of Ignorance---Out of Incompetence Or What?

[MastanKhan]

@MastanKhan
Sir,
For a while I have been reading your posts regarding long range heavy fighters that PAF should procure. For this you have been strongly in favor of the JH-7. It is no doubt a very good aircraft and with some further improvements it could be made into the ultimate JH-7, however this upgrade would be its last. This might be good till 2030 at the most which gives PAF a safe operational life of lets assume it is delivered today to be 14 years. Unfortunately this is not the case, the reality is that PAF modifications would take around 1-2 years and then the orders would be placed.

The delivery would only depend on the numbers that have been ordered, a reasonable choice of PAF would be around 60 so that the costs remain some what low. The final aircraft would be delivered withing 2-3 years after the final contract has been signed.

This is about 5 years from now bringing its operational life to around 9 years. Can this aircraft be cost productive within this short period? .

Hi,

You have a NOW kind of military problem---but you are thinking about the upgrades in 2030's---.

Not being rude---that pants are torn now---the Butt is naked now----.

Let me give you an example---no I don't want to----it will create a firestorm. The Israelis have given a 40 years life span to its upgraded Kfir----.

The americans have given 40 years more life to some re-furbished B52 bombers---what about them.

What makes you think this aircraft will only be good for 15 years. Why---are wars going to stop---or there would not be any new electronic gadgets produced---.

The Blk60 and 52 do not fill in the hole that a heavy strike fighter will fill---regardless what you do with them. Even though as many of them are available---they are welcome.

The naval strike aircraft will give you control over the ocean---and will be able to strike deep from different directions----means it does not have to follow the coastline----.

By doing so---it will take away some of the air strength of the enemy's air force away from the mainland.

Also with its anti ship missiles---it will keep the enemy naval flotilla farther away or if it gets in range will hurt it as much as it can.

When I talk about the JH7B---I talk about naval version---primarily---. It can be used in many other roles as well----.

 

[M.AsfandYar]

Hi,

I missed this post somehow----to answer you---ARAZ----you were always a nobody in my books for over the years that I have been on this board----and you know that.

You really thought something of yourself to have explained the M2K issue to me---or you could finish this debate just like that----KIYA PIDDI AUR KIYA PIDDI KA SHORBA----.

@araz---I am no military man---and no one of my immediate family is military---but I have forgotten more about the wars---strategies and weapons than you will ever be able to learn.

The old issues are rehashed because nothing has changed-----. I have also listened to your stupid explanations about the non purchase of the M2K's and the other air force officers as well---.

You and your buddies live in this chicken sh-it world surrounded by chicken fence and you guys think that is the whole of universe---.

Did you guys think that the Jews who went to buy weapons in eastern Europe in 1948-49 stopped the purchase of the weapons because weapons sellers were asking 5 times the price of those half working weapons----. THEY PAID THAT PRICE BECAUSE THEY KNEW WITHOUT THEM THERE WAS NO TOMORROW FOR ISRAEL.

How about the villagers of Sindh in the late 80's and 90's----. Why did they pay outrageous prices for AK47's----because if they did not have anything to protect their villages----they would be robbed and killed at the discretion of the criminals.

Name one nation in the history of the world---that has not paid exorbitant prices for weapons so that they oculd survive for another day---every one of them did that one time or another.

You come over here with your sanctified holier than thou post----and you want to take a wild swing and clear everything just with a wave---wake up---open your eyes---the world does not revolve around the stories of Paf and what they say.

An innocent question sir,
Why do you care, for a person not living here and not coming back here by your own words, why then do you care so much for us hypocrites and our defence?

 

[MastanKhan]

An innocent question sir,
Why do you care, for a person not living here and not coming back here by your own words, why then do you care so much for us hypocrites and our defence?

Sir,

I thank you very much for asking me-----. Because I am still a Pakistani at heart---. Sadly----Pakistan has rejected us expats---we cannot participate in elections etc---but still I can do my battles from the sidelines---.

People may not agree with my vision or my view point and I feel sorry for them---because they do not know otherwise---.

But I also know this that there are many a professionals over here who agree with what I am sayng---and there are many for whose posts I look forward to.

You need to have and develop the mindset---' If I don't---then who will " !!!!!!!!!!!!

Know the situation---understand the situation and learn to speak---. If the enemy's of Pakistan have not stopped from talking against Pakistan----why would I---who has welfare of Pakistan in his heart and soul should not talk for Pakistan.

Does that satisfy the question---.

 

[GURU DUTT]

Sir,

I thank you very much for asking me-----. Because I am still a Pakistani at heart---. Sadly----Pakistan has rejected us expats---we cannot participate in elections etc---but still I can do my battles from the sidelines---.

People may not agree with my vision or my view point and I feel sorry for them---because they do not know otherwise---.

But I also know this that there are many a professionals over here who agree with what I am sayng---and there are many for whose posts I look forward to.

You need to have and develop the mindset---' If I don't---then who will " !!!!!!!!!!!!

Know the situation---understand the situation and learn to speak---. If the enemy's of Pakistan have not stopped from talking against Pakistan----why would I---who has welfare of Pakistan in his heart and soul should not talk for Pakistan.

Does that satisfy the question---.

salaam mastan saheb u seen to argue a heavy twin engined fighter can fill all the gaps in pakistani armour and scare and make india come on table and talk peace with pakistan on pakistani terms ...... do you realli think india is so helpless and vunrable

 

[MastanKhan]

salaam mastan saheb u seen to argue a heavy twin engined fighter can fill all the gaps in pakistani armour and scare and make india come on table and talk peace with pakistan on pakistani terms ...... do you realli think india is so helpless and vunrable

Hi,

This aircraft is just to give strength to Pakistani strike force----. Basically I started this thread just for Pakistan's needs and not a comparison.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

Hi,

You have a NOW kind of military problem---but you are thinking about the upgrades in 2030's---.

Not being rude---that pants are torn now---the Butt is naked now----.

Let me give you an example---no I don't want to----it will create a firestorm. The Israelis have given a 40 years life span to its upgraded Kfir----.

The americans have given 40 years more life to some re-furbished B52 bombers---what about them.

What makes you think this aircraft will only be good for 15 years. Why---are wars going to stop---or there would not be any new electronic gadgets produced---.

The Blk60 and 52 do not fill in the hole that a heavy strike fighter will fill---regardless what you do with them. Even though as many of them are available---they are welcome.

The naval strike aircraft will give you control over the ocean---and will be able to strike deep from different directions----means it does not have to follow the coastline----.

By doing so---it will take away some of the air strength of the enemy's air force away from the mainland.

Also with its anti ship missiles---it will keep the enemy naval flotilla farther away or if it gets in range will hurt it as much as it can.

When I talk about the JH7B---I talk about naval version---primarily---. It can be used in many other roles as well----.

Sir,
I do understand that our need is of this hour but unfortunately we committed mistakes before hence today we are in this situation. If we lived in an IDEAL world our economy was 2+ Trillion USD no sanctions we could have bought any aircraft available like the EFT or F-15's or the B52's to replace the B-47's. I remember one of the most senior PAF officers quoted me "that the biggest mistake PAF did was to disband the bomber squadrons after the wars. Till this date that haunts us."

Coming back to present day USA does not fly their B-52's over Iraq or Syria, Why? They know that ISIS has surface to air missiles that might hit these aircraft hence they use the B-2's. The reason USA produced B-2's was because they wanted to replace their B-52's. After 28 years from the time they were first conceived only 2 squadrons have been manufactured... Why?... The answer is simple USA found that there is no threat from the USSR or Russia...

The upgrades that you are talking about for the B-52's are required because they know there is no country that is capable of launching any thing at these aircraft because by the time these would see action the US would have complete Air Superiority. Even if somehow the manage to loose a few B-52's they would have given the location of the remaining defenses which would be taken out by the other aircraft which will be patrolling close.

What makes you think this aircraft will only be good for 15 years. Why---are wars going to stop---or there would not be any new electronic gadgets produced---.

It is very simple to answer this question if we consider the development of Radars and also the limitations of aerodynamic.

F-16's if flown without any thing have a very small RCS. Hence they can penetrate deeper however when they are loaded then the RCS increases.

Mirrage III / V of PAF have been flying for almost 50 years though being old they managed this because they were designed for this. Please consider that Mirage 2000 is based on the same basic design though technology of flyby wire and avionic upgrades were developed much later. The same is the case of the Israeli Kafir's which were made after the biggest espionage. The aircraft is of the same design to that of Mirrage but are powered by a US engine and Israeli Avionics.

Why can't we do the same with Russian designs or Chinese?

Typically the Russian thinking was to build every thing bigger, now if they are bigger then they are easier to be identified by a radar as their RCS would be greater.

The design of PAK-FA and SU-35 has be relatively modified to reduce the RCS hence they are considered to be far more superior to the JH-7's.

There are some FAN BOY stuff regarding the JH-7 and Mig-21's that you can search where they have designed them to even become Galactic Fighters.

Once again I would like to repeat that PAF should increase the numbers of F-16 (if available). The alternate is to increase the numbers of JF-17's directly from China but that would limit the further up-gradation. Though JF-17 would not fill up the slot of Heavy but would definitely increase the numbers of F-16's that could be as devastating as that of a heavy with precision bombs.

 

[MastanKhan]

Sir,
I do understand that our need is of this hour but unfortunately we committed mistakes before hence today we are in this situation. If we lived in an IDEAL world our economy was 2+ Trillion USD no sanctions we could have bought any aircraft available like the EFT or F-15's or the B52's to replace the B-47's. I remember one of the most senior PAF officers quoted me "that the biggest mistake PAF did was to disband the bomber squadrons after the wars. Till this date that haunts us."
.

Hi,

The U S does not need to fly B52's over Syria or Iraq against isis is that it does not need to---because isis presents a small and selective target that it can deal with smart bombs.

OTOH----india presents a huge big target everywhere and anywhere----you understand the difference now---.

A military conquest or a war with another nation is different than fighting against isis----. Now everything and anything is a target---big or small----.

Now---when you have an enemy 3 times the size in military----you need an aircraft that can deliver a heavy load----.

But over here---most of my emphasis on the JH7B has been for naval strike roles---on parallel with the Chinese navy-----.
The JH7B's weapons package is second to none in its class---it will get an excellent chinese aesa radar---it will get a setup for electronic jammers to be used in the growler mode----and for a true utility strike aircraft---it can also launch BVR missiles.

With refueling setup after take off---this aircraft has a supposed strike radius of around 2500 + miles---. What that does for the military is to give it multiple different options to strike at a target for multiple different directions---as I have explained before---it can carry over 4 CM400 AKG's for shooting around 300 km as an AShM----. It can reach targets that can create a major destruction and hurt in india.

We have a ground launch version of babur---we have a naval version coming up and supposedly there is going to be a air launched version as well---the air launched version would have at least from 1200 Km to 1500 Km range---.

With the air launched version---the JH7B can carry 6 missiles with ease and give so much flexibility of launching from so many different points---which makes it a massive force multiplier at a minimal cost of around 25 million +-.

The thing is that just because it is big and has a big rcs does not mean that the adversary will get a lock on it just like that.

I mean to say---the designer was not stupid when they designed a large aircraft----and everybody who is fighting over RCS is basically extremely STUPID ( not meant for you because you brought out some learning points )and has no knowledge about air warfare----.

That is why---the designer created jammers---giving aircraft growler type capabilities----so that you can prowl under the shadow of your growler type aircraft-----like the JH7B is recommend to give protection to the Chinese SU30 aircraft during the mission---.

These growler capabilities would not allow a lock. You have a larger aircraft with a bigger engine producing more power that ca operate a more powerful jamming equipment---so this SU30MKI RCS mean nothing---if you cannot make a lock on it---.

That is what it is all about---who can make a lock onto the other aircraft when--how far and with what deadly results----.

RCS is just a drama for fools to argue over. It what your complimentary electronics package can do that will determine the outcome.

For F16's---I would say a number of 150---175 should be the right number---. 200---250 JF 17's or 150 JF 17's----50 J11D's and about 70 JH7B's

Pakistan cannot fight the war with 300---350 single engine aircraft---. It needs close to 500---.

The war will be decided by how many SU30's India will lose and how aircraft Pakistan has left after the first 10 days.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

Hi,

The U S does not need to fly B52's over Syria or Iraq against isis is that it does not need to---because isis presents a small and selective target that it can deal with smart bombs.

OTOH----india presents a huge big target everywhere and anywhere----you understand the difference now---.

A military conquest or a war with another nation is different than fighting against isis----. Now everything and anything is a target---big or small----.

Now---when you have an enemy 3 times the size in military----you need an aircraft that can deliver a heavy load----.

But over here---most of my emphasis on the JH7B has been for naval strike roles---on parallel with the Chinese navy-----.
The JH7B's weapons package is second to none in its class---it will get an excellent chinese aesa radar---it will get a setup for electronic jammers to be used in the growler mode----and for a true utility strike aircraft---it can also launch BVR missiles.

With refueling setup after take off---this aircraft has a supposed strike radius of around 2500 + miles---. What that does for the military is to give it multiple different options to strike at a target for multiple different directions---as I have explained before---it can carry over 4 CM400 AKG's for shooting around 300 km as an AShM----. It can reach targets that can create a major destruction and hurt in india.

We have a ground launch version of babur---we have a naval version coming up and supposedly there is going to be a air launched version as well---the air launched version would have at least from 1200 Km to 1500 Km range---.

With the air launched version---the JH7B can carry 6 missiles with ease and give so much flexibility of launching from so many different points---which makes it a massive force multiplier at a minimal cost of around 25 million +-.

The thing is that just because it is big and has a big rcs does not mean that the adversary will get a lock on it just like that.

I mean to say---the designer was not stupid when they designed a large aircraft----and everybody who is fighting over RCS is basically extremely STUPID ( not meant for you because you brought out some learning points )and has no knowledge about air warfare----.

That is why---the designer created jammers---giving aircraft growler type capabilities----so that you can prowl under the shadow of your growler type aircraft-----like the JH7B is recommend to give protection to the Chinese SU30 aircraft during the mission---.

These growler capabilities would not allow a lock. You have a larger aircraft with a bigger engine producing more power that ca operate a more powerful jamming equipment---so this SU30MKI RCS mean nothing---if you cannot make a lock on it---.

That is what it is all about---who can make a lock onto the other aircraft when--how far and with what deadly results----.

RCS is just a drama for fools to argue over. It what your complimentary electronics package can do that will determine the outcome.

For F16's---I would say a number of 150---175 should be the right number---. 200---250 JF 17's or 150 JF 17's----50 J11D's and about 70 JH7B's

Pakistan cannot fight the war with 300---350 single engine aircraft---. It needs close to 500---.

The war will be decided by how many SU30's India will lose and how aircraft Pakistan has left after the first 10 days.

Sir,
The real issue is budget...To have different platforms would increase this many folds hence PAF and PN is looking for an aircraft that can be used by both the forces i.e in commonality.

 

[Last Samuri]

MASTER KHAN.

Your comment

The war will be decided by how many SU30's India will lose and how aircraft Pakistan has left after the first 10 days

India is fielding 200 MKI today rising to 272 by 2019

versis

PAF is fielding 73 F16 rising to nil ( has none more ordered)

YOUR THUINDER numbers of 50 AND RISING wil struggle to handle nearly 150 MIRAGE2000/MIG29SMY MIG29K even if you double your fleet.

SO Master Khan you are correct

CAN the mighty F16 take on 3 to 4 times their number OF SU30MKI

10 days is long time THE ISRAELIS smashed 4 arab air powers in one day

and Israel is india,s closest military ally BAR Russia
.

 

[GURU DUTT]

india presents a huge big target everywhere and anywhere----you understand the difference now---.



The war will be decided by how many SU30's India will lose and how aircraft Pakistan has left after the first 10 days.

tell me sir do you think its gonna be a cake walk for PAF even with current assets of IAF also care to elaborate on how 72 F-16s gonna defete 6 squads of MKI backed by two each of M2K-5s and Mig29s even if you forget Phalcon & DRDO AWACS

 

[Humble Analyst]

there is an old rule sirji ... dont start what you cant finish and all this ino pak animosity was started bt ayub khan in 1964 by operation gibralter but ended up in tashkent and saving lahore from then on it was a perpetual cycle till that cycle is broken no ammount of "strike force" can save pakistan cause the way things are its imploding from with lets thing how to stop it .... as for war with india it aint gonna happen if pakistan doesnt fires the first shot ... baki jo aap theek samjhe saeen ji

Just jumping in, if Pakistan does not have good conventional weapons, the hawks in India will be tempted and selling the idea of short wars. History tells us that wars almost always escalate beyond the intended theatres, duration and intensity. When British gave freedom in 1947 as a revenge they left Kashmir against the partition rule. India annexed Kashmir and felt very proud. Pakistan continued to pursue Kashmir (Pakistan should as it is in principal Muslim majority and formula of partition would have given it to Pakistan). India and Pakistan, more so India, swallowed the British bait of Kashmir, hook line and sinker. They were able to sell weapons to both countries, both countries lost financially and Britain is still a winner. India is not a good neighbor because the idea of interference is in their psyche due to long rule by invaders. India is not getting over it. Get over it you are free, you don't have to do the same and mess with everybody's affairs (Sri Lanka, Bhutan, Sikkim, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Myanmar, Afghanistan to name some). Going off topic, yes we need heavy platforms in Air Force and for Navy.

 

[GURU DUTT]

Just jumping in, if Pakistan does not have good conventional weapons, the hawks in India will be tempted and selling the idea of short wars. History tells us that wars almost always escalate beyond the intended theatres, duration and intensity. When British gave freedom in 1947 as a revenge they left Kashmir against the partition rule. India annexed Kashmir and felt very proud. Pakistan continued to pursue Kashmir (Pakistan should as it is in principal Muslim majority and formula of partition would have given it to Pakistan). India and Pakistan, more so India, swallowed the British bait of Kashmir, hook line and sinker. They were able to sell weapons to both countries, both countries lost financially and Britain is still a winner. India is not a good neighbor because the idea of interference is in their psyche due to long rule by invaders. India is not getting over it. Get over it you are free, you don't have to do the same and mess with everybody's affairs (Sri Lanka, Bhutan, Sikkim, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Myanmar, Afghanistan to name some). Going off topic, yes we need heavy platforms in Air Force and for Navy.

may i ask humbelly that ?


tell me is this thread about kashmir or india bieng a good or bad naighbour

why would india be tempted to attack your nation ?

what do you have what we dont have already or have made alternate arrangements for ?

who under leadership of british officers and afridi tribesmen attacked kashmir when UNO was already in discussion to hand over whole of J&K to pakistan ?

if maharaja of kashmir was wrong in going with india how was khan of kalat & nawab bugti was right in going with pakistan ?

lets not go off topic ... OK discuss about how can PAF neutralize IAF in current format

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

MASTER KHAN.

Your comment




India is fielding 200 MKI today rising to 272 by 2019

versis

PAF is fielding 73 F16 rising to nil ( has none more ordered)

YOUR THUINDER numbers of 50 AND RISING wil struggle to handle nearly 150 MIRAGE2000/MIG29SMY MIG29K even if you double your fleet.

SO Master Khan you are correct

CAN the mighty F16 take on 3 to 4 times their number OF SU30MKI

10 days is long time THE ISRAELIS smashed 4 arab air powers in one day

and Israel is india,s closest military ally BAR Russia
.

The Indian and their Su-30MKI's are never 100% available due to maintenance issues. Moreover India also requires these aircraft on her North Eastern Borders and can not field all of them against Pakistan. This is the reason India initiated the MMRCA competition so that they are able to procure aircraft that are much more capable to fight against China so that then numbers of Su-30MKI's can be increased on the Western border.

India does also has a decent Naval Air Arm with the Mig-29's but those are limited to South Eastern and South Western areas so to counter this threat Pakistan Navy is looking to procure JF-17's along with the existing PAF Naval support aircraft.

Do you know there are other PAF assets too that are similar to the M2k's and Mig-21s.

Though the numbers are limited and they should be increased, when and how this is only going to properly answered once the aircraft land in colours of PAF or PN.

 

[Humble Analyst]

may i ask humbelly that ?


tell me is this thread about kashmir or india bieng a good or bad naighbour This background is necessary to pont out the importance of conventional weapons so it may not change into nuclear disaster for subcontinent, that is all. Not off topic if you follow.

why would india be tempted to attack your nation ? They are doing it right now just check the news, it is in Indian Psyche, especially after Modi Sarkar, remember the words of Indira Gandhi after 71 war, "Aaj aik Bharat naree nay hazar saal ka badla lay lya hay". Guys get over the thousand years other wise we will destroy subcontinent.

what do you have what we dont have already or have made alternate arrangements for ? You lack sense of justice and positive attitude towards neighbor (Pakistan, China, Sri Lanka). If the British Chief of staff for Pakistan Army had not been traitor as he called Lord Mount Baton and informed him prior to attack, the Kashmir problem would have been solved in 1948. Who was the one who forced Maharaja to join India. If one has integrity truth hurts.

who under leadership of british officers and afridi tribesmen attacked kashmir when UNO was already in discussion to hand over whole of J&K to pakistan ?

if maharaja of kashmir was wrong in going with india how was khan of kalat & nawab bugti was right in going with pakistan ?

lets not go off topic ... OK discuss about how can PAF neutralize IAF in current format

The back ground is necessary, until 65 you had not given Kashmir up. Maharaja was wrong because the partition rule formula was not his choice but people decided, Bugti was lone wolf like maharaja. In fact Maharaja was forced by India. Accept the facts. To neutralize Indian planes Pakistan should go for Air superiority planes. The ties have changed so Pakistan has to increase planes until they get good quality planes.
why would india be tempted to attack your nation ? They are doing it right now just check the news, it is in Indian Psyche, especially after Modi Sarkar, remember the words of Indira Gandhi after 71 war, "Aaj aik Bharat naree nay hazar saal ka badla lay lya hay". Guys get over the thousand years other wise we will destroy subcontinent.
To answer your question

 

[aakash_2410]

The back ground is necessary, until 65 you had not given Kashmir up. Maharaja was wrong because the partition rule formula was not his choice but people decided, Bugti was lone wolf like maharaja. In fact Maharaja was forced by India. Accept the facts. To neutralize Indian planes Pakistan should go for Air superiority planes. The ties have changed so Pakistan has to increase planes until they get good quality planes.
why would india be tempted to attack your nation ? They are doing it right now just check the news, it is in Indian Psyche, especially after Modi Sarkar, remember the words of Indira Gandhi after 71 war, "Aaj aik Bharat naree nay hazar saal ka badla lay lya hay". Guys get over the thousand years other wise we will destroy subcontinent.
To answer your question

Lool! I know I'm completely off-topic here but I couldn't resist after seeing your repetitive lies. About this 1000 years rule.

1) No one in India cares about this. We're over it. We've accepted that Indian kings were in-fighting and foreign rulers were able to defeat them. Not the the first time it has happened anywhere in the world nor the last time.
2) It wasn't a thousand year rule. Muslim rulers had presence in in India for about 700-800 rule.
3) During this period all of present day India was merely under Muslim rule for 250-300 odd years.
4) The Muslim elite families that ruled India were not Pakistani (Muslim Punjabi, Sindhi, Mohajir, Baloch).
5) Some Pashtun (Afghan and not Pakistani) dynasties here and there but no Muslim Punjabi, Muslim Sindhi, Baloch or Mohajir ever ruled India.
6) And trust me I am saying this in a nicest way possible. Today, overwhelming majority of Indians do not want to see Pakistan re-united with India.

And please provide a credible source where Indira Gandhi said it? Otherwise, I'd be inclined to report your port. Please, don't talk about 'Indian psyche' because 1.2 billion people can not and do not think the same way. This is a generalisation of the worst kind. I can also talk about Pakistani identity crisis and blah blah blah. This is not the thread to do it.



@On topic,
From limited knowledge and understanding that I have of the topic, I think Pakistan does require a squadron or 2 of twin-engine air superiority fighter than can give IAF a run for its money.