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Cold Start Doctrine - Pakistani Response. By Jhungary

I think the most flawed part in any cold start doctrine is that India can make small but quick advances. Here is the flaw:
Whether India attacks small or big, Pakistan is gonna go in with all it has got. The war will be out of India's limited hand very soon. Once India fires the first bullet, Pakistan is not going to sit and reply with one bullet. Pakistan will fight on its own terms. And that is unpredictable along with the consequences.

I believe that is not the way military planners think. Not any part of the world, in any era if you look at the history.

Again, such open statements is not going to help the discussion, it should be clearly stated.
 
Conventional superiority means zilch when your adversary has the capacity to inflict an irreversible damage to your mainland.

Moreover, the supposed 'conventional superiority' of indian army couldn't save it from the embarrassment of retreat after initiating a stand-off with Pakistan Military (which inflicted heavy causalities on indian army (near 900 indian soldiers died) before indian army backed-down from the stand-off unilaterally.)

Lastly, india as numerical superiority over Pakistan due to its larger size and numbers. No 'conventional superiority' so to speak.

Pakistan Military deploys much superior capability and firepower on per sq. km ratio.

There exists a complete military deterrence between india and Pakistan. And that have been proven again and again over the years.

You can sit on internet and jump up and down because india has 1 million soldiers and Pakistan has less than 1 million. In real life however, india can not think of engaging Pakistan in any military conflict because the cost of that would put india decades back................and into stone-age if the war goes "all-out"...

Lastly, no war is fought "1 million" vs "1 million" etc...wars are fought in theaters and sectors..and in that, Pakistan has already proven its superiority in deploying massive firepower much faster than the adversary..and hence rendering already 'junkish' and 'slow' indian military even more useless.

We saw that in 2001, and we again saw that in exercises where india tried to cut down its mobilization (of strike corps) time to 48 hours...and is still working on it.

While Pakistan Military cut down its deployment time to 12 hours already and PROVED that by conducing successive large-scale massive exercises along indian border

Hence immensely embarrassing indian planners..no wonder india does not use "cold-start" and "hot-pursuit" type language any more :lol:

Because if india decides to do "rapid" deployment of forces inside Pakistan and conduct a "cold-start"....by the time indian army units would assemble to march towards the border, Pakistan Military would already be sitting in its battle-positions waiting for indians to come in range and get clobbered massively!!

And again, this is simple military-science and no 'fanboy' bullsh!t like indians do.

Military that is more mobile and can deploy its firepower to relevant sectors much faster than the enemy will destroy the enemy, no matter even if the size of enemy is larger (That's how Nazis won against European powers, U.S won against Iraqis, and Israelis won against Arabs...faster deployment of firepower than the adversary!!)

And again...read wikileak cables..even American professional assessment is that any "limited action" will result in..and again, I quote..."heavy indian losses" ...:agree:

Yeah, if india decides to go all-out...and attack with its air force strike squadrons, strike divisions across international border and LoC, and even through sea..then the military scenario completely changes....but we are not discussing that here (I'm more than willing to discuss that too objectively..not in this thread though)...

So as of now, indian military options have been completely blocked by superior Pakistani Military planning and mobilization.

Only option for india right now is "all-out" war...dreams of "punishing Pakistan militarily" or "limited war" etc. have been buried alive by Pakistani generals :azn:

I'll suggest that you should learn and take the higher road..while we'll let gullible indians sit and think "indian army is great" and "cold-start will get Pakistan"...

Afterall, indians are very gullible and innocent. Even senior Indian members here know it :)

Well. when I see your post it seems you are trying to establish the old 1Pakistani =10Indian or I Muslim Pashtun=10 Hindu BS.Like you said jumping up and down is one thing.A battle against the Indian Army is the other thing.
We know how much your forces can go ?After all we have 4 successful major wars experience on our side.
You describes a lot about your Army.But you dont know anything about the other side and ever increasing gap your nation and my nation.

One victory is based on the knowing the limitation of other side also.We knows your limitation.I dont need to boast like that.
A weak man will try to fight A strong man will try to forget and i
 
In previous exercises, Pakistan Army was able to deploy 50,000+ troops along with massive firepower (hundreds of tanks, artillery, MRLs, Air defence ground units, and so) in coordination with Pakistan Air Force's strike elements to front line sectors within 12 hours!!!

Pakistan has conducted 5 major exercises in past six years to validate its military doctrine against any possible indian aggression in the form of "cold-start" operations.

Time and time again, we have seen india failing to cross Pakistan's deterrence...and Pakistan's deterrence against any indian aggression (cold start or no) is much, much strengthened than it was before (hint:2001 indian retreat after initiation of troop mobilization across LoC and International Border which led to a stand-off situation with Pakistan Military)

Pakistan Military has literally turned any indian cold-start "limited war" possibility into a "cold-feet" already. Everybody knows it (Read wikileaks of American assessment of any indian try for a 'quick war'...to summarize: American officials predicted/calculated...and I quote..."heavy indian losses" in case of any indian "cold-start" effort)...

The only option india would have is to get itself into escalating-entanglements with Pakistan Military, leading to a full-fledged war between the two countries.

There is no possibility of any "cold-start" or "limited war" from india...as it would result is disastrous defeat of india OR would blow into an all out war (with no other possibilities)...


Lol,

You really are in a make believe world, war isn't one. Pakistani generals fear the day when India decides to make another Bangladesh out.

In Research,Chimpanzees are made to do certain tasks by such Behavioural modification daily.
Their Army and Generals know all this is to boost the morale so they keep playing such propaganda and they also know how fast that morale will drop when they start a war.Like how their Entire army in Eastern Theater of war in 1971 collapsed and surrendered as 90,000 Pow's
They keep constantly playing India as boogeyman out to get them and to get support from their population for Military rule and the need to keep such modern military even at the expense of basic standard of living and infrastructure,
You might remember their famous quote "We will ear Grass, but we will make the bomb".The fear of our nation is real in their Army minds but for Civilians they will keep playing the music that can wipe out India in an instant to reassure them,all is well.because if they don't support for military will collapse fast. That is why you see them threaten with Nukes at every small instance.Only a insecure person does that as i have explained in the street fight example and most of the time those who shout a lot are the least likely to fight.
War might look easy on paper but in real it leaves deep psychological scars in people who take part in it.

The symptoms or methodology you mention is right. The cause or goal is the greater sunni muslim dream of world domination.

Their whole focus is on that - korasan, Gazwa, Islamic state, state cleansing of minorities, using terrorists as proxies to weaken the enemy, consolidate sunni world - make it one economic military unit and of course plan defeats of great non muslim powers.

The desperation to conquer what they think they lost because of mainly brits is Spain, Israel and India and their long term goal to take these lands back.

Now, what happens when they attempt such misadventures at this time of day? They get vaporised within minutes - so the methodology is keep hatred and the junoon alive for the day when they can. Keep pin pricking, keep the water boiling, keep issues alive, keep demonising the enemy by way of religion by calling them names - bani ya who are not to be trusted etc. The indoctrination happens from school and madrasseh time itself., as most experts say - the never ending war and what they call - the thousand year war.

They will keep at it even if they lose multiple times because their religion dictates it and because ghazis never give up till their goal is achieved, they have named their missiles after the muslim conquerors of India because they believe that it's these missiles and their military that will bring back the price of land.


What we collectively need to do to stop them from spreading their cult all over the world - identify the hydra heads of the snake and keep crushing the heads one at a time till the final blow.
 
I believe that is not the way military planners think. Not any part of the world, in any era if you look at the history.

Again, such open statements is not going to help the discussion, it should be clearly stated.

Clearly stated what?

I merely pointed out the flaws in the 'cold start'........India is right next door to Pakistan....there is no way that a 10,000 or 100,000 troop deployment and hundreds of vehicles are gonna go un noticed. The radars mounted in Pakistan are also able to cover some of India's airspace.....we will know when India is preparing for war. The cold start is good when you can maintain the surprise factor, the truth is, in this case you cannot do that.
 
Clearly stated what?

I merely pointed out the flaws in the 'cold start'........India is right next door to Pakistan....there is no way that a 10,000 or 100,000 troop deployment and hundreds of vehicles are gonna go un noticed. The radars mounted in Pakistan are also able to cover some of India's airspace.....we will know when India is preparing for war. The cold start is good when you can maintain the surprise factor, the truth is, in this case you cannot do that.

You are right, There will be very little element of surprise..plus the events that would lead up to a military strike, most probably a major terrorist strike linked to Pakistan.

So it won't be a sudden trigger for sure, what with the media reporting every happening and Indian media available in Pakistan.
 
You are right, There will be very little element of surprise..plus the events that would lead up to a military strike, most probably a major terrorist strike linked to Pakistan.

So it won't be a sudden trigger for sure, what with the media reporting every happening and Indian media available in Pakistan.

That happened in 2001 and 2008...what happened then? Do you realize the massive advances PAF and Army have made since then? Actually, the best time for India to go on a military adventure was 2008....Pakistan had no credible Early warning and control assets, old rusty P3c with Navy, outdated F-16s with Airforce and limited number of Al Khalids with Army. No proper SAM coverage...nothing to face India. Basically Pakistan was as weak as it could be....despite the fact Indians possessed the su30mkis in numbers.

Today there are more than 100 BVR fighters that can take on anything India has one on one....with network centric capability......which is only going to increase.

Second thing, an attack on India by terrorists is one thing....but military launching an attack is totally another thing. You don't go to war to avenge death of hundreds and get thousands killed in the process. That's the way of USA.......but then you should read their war history.

Don't be stupid. Cold Start would lead to a hot start from Pakistan. Nobody wants that in the region. There is enough non-sense in the world going on.
 
November 2014

By Jaganath Sankaran

In April 2011, Pakistan declared that it had tested a short-range battlefield nuclear missile, the Nasr.1 Since then, prominent purveyors of Pakistani nuclear doctrine, including Lieutenant General Khalid Kidwai and former diplomat Maleeha Lodhi, have portrayed the Nasr missile as a counter to India’s “Cold Start” war doctrine.2

That doctrine supposedly aims at rapid but limited retaliatory incursions into Pakistan by the Indian army to seize and hold narrow slices of territory in response to a terrorism event in India involving Pakistanis. The rationale is that the seized territory would be returned in exchange for Pakistani extradition of extremists inflicting terrorism onto India. The doctrine is based on the assumption that Pakistan would not resort to the use of nuclear weapons in response to a limited Indian incursion, thereby offering space for conventional conflict even in a nuclearized environment.

Pointing to this Indian war doctrine, Pakistani decision-makers now argue that the deterrent value of their current arsenal operates only at the strategic level. According to this line of reasoning, the gap at the tactical level gives India the freedom to successfully engage in limited Cold Start-style military operations without fear of nuclear escalation. Development of the low-yield, tactical battlefield nuclear weapon, the Nasr missile, is seen as the solution providing “flexible deterrence options”3 for an appropriate response to Cold Start, rather than massive nuclear retaliation against India. Nasr proponents argue that by maintaining “a credible linkage between limited conventional war and nuclear escalation,” the missile will deter India from carrying out its plan.4

This approach might appear to be sensible, but it suffers from two important flaws. First, the Cold Start doctrine has not been actively implemented and therefore does not seem to represent a genuine threat to Pakistan. Second, battlefield nuclear weapons are a key part of the proposed solution, but it may be extremely difficult to establish a command and control system that would effectively preclude the possibility of an accidental or unauthorized launch.

Is Cold Start Real?

The genesis of the Cold Start doctrine goes back to a conference of Indian army commanders held in April 2004. The media claimed at the time that a new Indian war doctrine was presented at that conference. These sources added that although the full details of the doctrine remained classified and many issues were still being fine-tuned, a briefing by a senior officer had mentioned the concept of eight integrated battle groups being employed in place of the existing three large strike formations. Yet, there is no evidence of an unveiling at the conference of the Cold Start doctrine as it stands now with its various operational details. In fact, the Indian army doctrine document released in October 2004 following the conference makes no mention of the Cold Start doctrine.5

How did the purported Cold Start doctrine gain so much currency? One of the two prime sources to which all writings on the Cold Start doctrine refer is an op-ed piece by Firdaus Ahmed, a writer on security affairs.6 Writing in May 2004, without citing any evidence, he claims that the doctrine comprises two important elements. The integrated battle groups, being smaller than the current strike corps, could be deployed more quickly, and these groups would be able to undercut Pakistan’s nuclear doctrine of first use by striking at narrow pieces of territory along the Indian-Pakistani border that do not necessarily compel Pakistan to cross its nuclear threshold. Ahmed points out that there was no indication that the idea had originated in the Integrated Defence Staff—the joint body serving as India’s unified armed services headquarters—suggesting that the idea did not have the endorsement of the three services. The other prime source to which all later discussions of the Cold Start doctrine refer is an article by Subhash Kapila, a strategic affairs analyst.7 In his piece, Kapila suggests that, in the absence of more details, some aspects of the strategic conceptual underpinnings of India’s new war doctrine can be assumed. One key assumption that he makes is that three of the army’s existing strike corps may be reconstituted and reinforced into eight or so integrated battle groups to launch multiple strikes into Pakistan. Another assumption is that India’s strike corps elements will have to be moved well forward from existing garrisons usually situated deeper inside India. Here again, the author makes assumptions about what he believes to be the elements of an as-yet-undeclared doctrine.

In trying to outline what Cold Start could be, these two sources were at best providing opinion rather than facts. Yet, these pieces have endured and have ended up propagating an idea that apparently does not have support from the armed forces or the political class in India. Recently, the Indian government and military have been striving to deny that Cold Start is an approved doctrine.8 Timothy Roemer, U.S. ambassador to India from 2009 to 2011, noted in a leaked assessment that “several very high level officials [including the former Indian national security adviser M.K. Narayanan] have firmly stated, when asked directly about their support for Cold Start, that they have never endorsed, supported or advocated for this doctrine.”9 The Obama administration apparently raised the issue of Cold Start in November 2009 when Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh visited Washington. In a subsequent comment, Indian Defense Secretary Pradeep Kumar said, “We don’t know what Cold Start is. Our prime minister has said that Pakistan has nothing to fear.”10 Similarly, General V.K. Singh, who retired in May 2012 as Indian’s chief of army staff, said in 2010, “There is nothing called ‘Cold Start.’ As part of our overall strategy we have a number of contingencies and options, depending on what the aggressor does. In the recent years, we have been improving our systems with respect to mobilization, but our basic military posture is defensive.” He has further said, “I think that ‘Cold Start’ is just a term bandied about by think tanks and media. It is neither a doctrine nor a military term in our glossary.”11

The origins of the Cold Start doctrine therefore are highly suspect. More importantly, there have not been any subsequent observable Indian efforts to operationalize the doctrine. In fact, elements of the Indian army and the Indian air force substantially disagree on how to do this and on whether the doctrine needs to be operationalized at all. The presumed Cold Start doctrine, by design, ties down Indian air force units to missions of close air support in a spatially limited theater of operations in which the army operates rather than allowing the air force to exploit the quantitative and qualitative advantages it possesses against its Pakistani counterpart and launch a wider campaign of strategic attrition and air supremacy.12

The doctrine also underplays strategic bombing, which is a preferred mission for the air force. The Indian air force has balked at this idea, suggesting that its role in the supposed Cold Start is an artificial and gross underutilization of air power. Making this point, Kapil Kak, a retired air vice-marshal who is deputy director of the air force’s Center for Air Power Studies, has said that “there is no question of the air force fitting into a doctrine propounded by the army. That is a concept dead at inception.”13 Furthermore, Kak has argued that there is little necessity for the air force to divert its frontline fighter aircraft to augment the army’s firepower. That task, he says, can be achieved by the army’s own attack helicopters and multiple rocket launchers that now have a 100-kilometer range. Yet, the army’s airborne assets are inferior to those of the air force. In particular, if the Pakistani air force brings its top assets into action in response to a Cold Start-style incursion, the Indian army’s airborne assets will not be able to provide cover for the invading army. Will Cold Start then be implementable?

In addition, Indian military forces have not undertaken any of the changes needed to execute an operation along the lines of Cold Start. The Indian army still maintains its three large offensive corps stationed in the middle of the country, whereas the Cold Start doctrine advocates breaking them into smaller integrated battle groups deployed at the Indian-Pakistani border.

Furthermore, the Indian army has not equipped its forces in a manner that would enable them to mount rapid and aggressive campaigns against Pakistan. For example, main battle tanks—a good indicator of progress—increased in number only slightly between 2003 and 2014 from an estimated 3,898 to approximately 4,000 tanks in working condition. Similarly, in 2003, the army had 320 armored personnel carriers. In 2014, there are approximately 336 active armored personnel carriers. The number of armored infantry fighting vehicles was estimated at 1,600 in 2003 and 1,445 in 2014.14 Although equipment numbers do not always represent military intent, the constancy in equipment inventory again points to a lack of concerted effort to actualize Cold Start.

This lack of effort to re-engineer the Indian military along the lines envisioned in the Cold Start doctrine reflects to some measure the limits of coercive military power. For example, after the 2008 Mumbai terrorist attack, Prime Minister Singh had apparently decided against military action. It is believed that Singh had worried that if India were to launch selective strikes, they would likely only deepen Pakistan’s internal turmoil and probably escalate into a war that could include nuclear deployments, which may be precisely what the terrorists hope to provoke. That is a significant problem to which the Cold Start doctrine has no remedy.

Additionally, India possibly recognizes, given the recent spate of terrorist attacks within Pakistan, that Pakistan is now able to exert much less control over the jihadi elements operating inside its territory. Speaking on the limits of military action after the Mumbai attack, Lalit Mansingh, a former Indian ambassador in Washington, said that “there is no military option here. India had to ‘isolate the terrorist elements’ in Pakistan not rally the nation around them.”15

The absence of official approval, the divergent interests of the various branches of the armed services, and the lack of observable military progress toward implementation of the Cold Start doctrine in India should give Pakistani leaders pause with regard to further developing and deploying the Nasr missile. These issues, however, are only part of the reason that battlefield nuclear weapons are a poor choice for Pakistan. The difficulties in managing battlefield nuclear weapons are an equally important aspect.

Pakistani Command and Control

The possession of short-range battlefield nuclear weapons poses one major challenge to Pakistan: effective command and control. The Nasr, which has a short range of about 60 kilometers, is a quick-dispersal system that can be forward deployed near the Indian-Pakistani border, thereby providing ready access to the field commander when he needs it. Although a forward-deployed system could give field commanders quick access and obviate the risk of a communication failure with the political leadership in the midst of combat, ensuring such operational readiness might also require the devolution of command and control to the local field commander and possibly even a prior authorization to use nuclear weapons. That poses the risk of unauthorized or unnecessary use.

A field commander has no way to forecast the outcome of a battle; there is a constant risk of being overrun. He has no way to be absolutely sure that all conventional options have been exhausted and that he is using nuclear weapons only as a last resort. Lacking the overall picture, a regiment or a battalion commander could always be tempted to utilize all his available weapons. While at Harvard University, Henry Kissinger argued that when a commander is hard pressed and facing the prospect of eventual defeat, he would need “superhuman discipline to refrain from using a weapon that he believes may tilt the outcome of the battle in his favor.”16

Sankaran_2a.jpg


President Barack Obama (left) and Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh participate in an arrival ceremony at the White House on November 24, 2009. During Singh’s visit, the U.S. side reportedly raised the issue of India’s “Cold Start” war doctrine. (Alex Wong/Getty Images)

Even when a local commander has correctly evaluated that he is about to lose, his defeat would not necessarily imply that Pakistan would lose the war. Winning all the battles is not a requirement for winning the war. For example, in the last major Indian-Pakistan war, in 1965, Pakistan suffered a major defeat in Kasur near Lahore. Yet, the next day it won an important battle in Sialkot, thereby bringing the war to a standstill. If the same situation were to unfold in the future, would a Pakistani commander decide to use battlefield nuclear weapons? If so, would India escalate with nuclear retaliation? How would that affect the outcome of the war? Pakistani military decision-makers should explore these questions and determine how they affect the command and control arrangements of the Nasr.


Pakistan’s political and military leaders also should worry about the validity and integrity of any distress signal they would receive in an emerging military crisis or during a war. To illustrate, two days after the 2008 Mumbai terrorist attack began, someone pretending to be India’s foreign minister telephoned Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari and threatened war unless Pakistan acted immediately against the perpetrators of the attack. Zardari immediately contacted the country’s military leadership, and the country’s army and air force went to their highest alert status.

In subsequent comments to the Dawn newspaper, a senior Pakistani official defended the high-alert status during the incident, saying that “war may not have been imminent, but it was not possible to take any chances.” Zardari also initiated a diplomatic campaign with the United States to put pressure on India to withdraw the apparent threat. Pakistani leaders warned the United States that if the Pakistani government felt threatened, it would move troops engaged in anti-terrorism operations in the Afghanistan border region to its eastern border with India. U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice had to intervene. Rice called Indian Foreign Minister Pranab Mukherjee in the middle of the night to ask him about the call and inquire about the threatening message. Mukherjee reassured Rice that he had not spoken to Zardari.17

A year later, a report in Dawn revealed that an investigation in Pakistan concluded that the call to Zardari was made by Omar Saeed Sheikh, the terrorist held for the murder of American journalist Daniel Pearl at the Hyderabad prison in Pakistan. Sheikh also seems to have reached General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, the chief of army staff.

Apparently, Sheikh was using a cellphone with a SIM registered in the United Kingdom.18 It is still unknown if powerful elements within Pakistan were involved in planning the hoax call. How did the call get through without due diplomatic checks?19 Was it just an oversight, or was there internal involvement? Suggestions were made in India that Zardari was “suckered” into taking the call, hinting at the involvement of “elements” in Pakistan that wanted the situation to escalate.20 Tempting as it may be to characterize this incident as an isolated occurrence, it is not. A number of similar incidents have occurred.21 Given these miscommunications, how can a Pakistani decision-maker be sure that a request to approve use of battlefield nuclear weapons is valid and necessary? Pakistan’s discordant military-civilian relationship also poses challenges to the sensible and safe command and control of forward-deployed battlefield nuclear weapons.22

An Alternative for Pakistan
Two factors should compel Pakistan to reassess its plans for further development and deployment of the Nasr. First, the validity and viability of Cold Start—the primary reason for Pakistan’s development of the Nasr—has been highly overrated. There is no evidence to suggest that it is an official doctrine drawing broad political support or generating interservice enthusiasm. Second, operating a battlefield nuclear weapon such as the Nasr in the absence of a real and current Cold Start threat imposes unnecessary additional stresses on the management of Pakistan’s nuclear command and control.



Click image to enlarge.

If Pakistan nevertheless intends to possess a limited battlefield nuclear weapons capability, its current nuclear arsenal can perform that function. There is no particular need to develop new missiles or warheads. Pakistan’s current missile inventory and nuclear arsenal in combination can perform all the intended functions of a battlefield nuclear weapon. Its current long-range missiles can be launched on a lofted trajectory23 to reach locations near the Indian-Pakistani border where the Nasr is meant to be employed. For example, the Abdali missile, which has an optimal range of 180 kilometers, can travel 60 kilometers, the range of the Nasr missile, when launched at a lofted angle of approximately 80 degrees (fig. 1). Similarly, the Ghaznavi missile, which has an optimal range of 290 kilometers, can be launched at a lofted angle of 84 degrees to travel the same distance as the Nasr.24 Another option would be to launch the Babar cruise missile and shut off its booster earlier in the flight to achieve a 60-kilometer range.


Similarly, Pakistan’s current nuclear warheads could be used to produce explosive effects that are similar to those of low-yield nuclear weapons. A typical five-kiloton low-yield weapon, for example, produces an air blast with an overpressure of 20 pounds per square inch (psi)25 felt to a distance of approximately 480 meters when detonated at an altitude of 310 meters. Weapons with higher yields can be made to produce the same overpressure effect by increasing the altitude at which they are detonated.

For example, a 15-kiloton nuclear device can be made to produce the same 20 psi overpressure felt to a distance of approximately 480 meters by exploding it at an altitude of 523 meters. Usually, the maximum distance on the ground to which 20 psi overpressure is felt for a 15-kiloton nuclear device is 690 meters when exploded at an altitude of 450 meters. Therefore, by increasing the explosion altitude, a 15-kiloton weapon is made to function like a five-kiloton weapon. Similarly, a 30-kiloton or even a 50-kiloton weapon could be detonated at a particular altitude—725 meters and 1,200 meters, respectively—to replicate the air blast radius of a five-kiloton device.

Conclusion
The options described above show that Pakistan’s current arsenal already intrinsically possesses the capability to perform the functions of battlefield nuclear weapons. If Pakistani military and government officials decide that the country should have such a capability to offset a sudden invasion by India, they therefore have no need to pursue the development of the Nasr missile.

The larger point of the above analysis, however, is that there is no evidence of a requirement for such a capability. The main impetus for the development of the Nasr was India’s Cold Start doctrine, but it does not appear that this doctrine was fully formed. Perhaps more importantly, India has not taken the key steps for its force posture that would be necessary to implement the doctrine. Pakistan therefore should desist from further pursuit of the Nasr program. Such an action would not only save Pakistan money, but also would help avoid spurring a new nuclear arms race in tactical nuclear weapons in South Asia.
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@jhungary I doubt that you were drunk while writing this article or maybe you were-However, Miss.Jhungry kept you awake:D
Anyways, interesting read-
I want you to take a look at this very interesting article posted above by me-it covers the Genesis of exsistance as well as validity of it's implementation-
Regards
 
That happened in 2001 and 2008...what happened then? Do you realize the massive advances PAF and Army have made since then? Actually, the best time for India to go on a military adventure was 2008....Pakistan had no credible Early warning and control assets, old rusty P3c with Navy, outdated F-16s with Airforce and limited number of Al Khalids with Army. No proper SAM coverage...nothing to face India. Basically Pakistan was as weak as it could be....despite the fact Indians possessed the su30mkis in numbers.

Today there are more than 100 BVR fighters that can take on anything India has one on one....with network centric capability......which is only going to increase.

Second thing, an attack on India by terrorists is one thing....but military launching an attack is totally another thing. You don't go to war to avenge death of hundreds and get thousands killed in the process. That's the way of USA.......but then you should read their war history.

Don't be stupid. Cold Start would lead to a hot start from Pakistan. Nobody wants that in the region. There is enough non-sense in the world going on.



Don't get all hyper on me dude, I was just Co relating your point about the lack of a surprise element..but believe or not - the only thing that would trigger a war from the Indian side will be another terrorist attack that has pakistani link.
 
Clearly stated what?

I merely pointed out the flaws in the 'cold start'........India is right next door to Pakistan....there is no way that a 10,000 or 100,000 troop deployment and hundreds of vehicles are gonna go un noticed. The radars mounted in Pakistan are also able to cover some of India's airspace.....we will know when India is preparing for war. The cold start is good when you can maintain the surprise factor, the truth is, in this case you cannot do that.
You pointed out nothing. You just chest thumped that you will hit back so hardly once india fire a single bullet. Bla bla bla..

Why did you not hit hard then when we shot down your plane at kachh.
 
Don't get all hyper on me dude, I was just Co relating your point about the lack of a surprise element..but believe or not - the only thing that would trigger a war from the Indian side will be another terrorist attack that has pakistani link.

Nope it won't. And there is no Pakistani link.....every time India has failed to prove 'beyond reasonable doubt' that state of Pakistan was involved in any terrorist attack.

All they can come up with is some lame telephone conversation and forced confessions. Pakistan is well versed in those cheap tactics.

Kid, it is easy to talk about war on PDF....i really hope you are the first one to take to the fight, when and if war breaks out, just so you know what is at stake.
 
Nope it won't. And there is no Pakistani link.....every time India has failed to prove 'beyond reasonable doubt' that state of Pakistan was involved in any terrorist attack.

All they can come up with is some lame telephone conversation and forced confessions. Pakistan is well versed in those cheap tactics.

Kid, it is easy to talk about war on PDF....i really hope you are the first one to take to the fight, when and if war breaks out, just so you know what is at stake.

I am not talking war..I am talking about the trigger from our end..as for proof..Whom do we prove to? The perpetrator himself? Do you think any amount of proof is likely for a criminal for e.g. to accept and pass judgement on himself for a crime that he has willingly engaged in?

As for when war breaks out, every Indian would become a part of it some way or the other - rest assured.
 
I gave street fight just as an example to make others understand what goes in the minds of both opponents even in boxing matches these things play in minds of both opponents and in the larger context of warfare both armies.
This is behavioural science and psychology and that is how psy-ops is conducted.
Whether USA used it by spreading pamphlets and radio messages asking Iraqis to surrender, or how the Iraqi Army recently ran even without putting up a fight against a small and lesser equipped force of Daesh millitants.
All these factors come into play in war and as long as the civilian population are assured that they will be left alone in peace and if its shown that the real aggressors are their own army not the Indian army, then see how fast the support for Pakistani Army falls,You had Martial law and dictatorships many times and hardly any Civilian Democracy ,naturally these images play in the mind of civilian population while we have full fledged Democracy in our nation since 1947 so naturally Indians will back the Army to the end.
That was the reason your 1971 war was lost because you started harassing and killing Civilians.

Not to mention PTSD, although many soliders are trained to cope up with PTSD a civilian population is not.


Your analysis is correct, it has a religious tone to it and the need to capture fertile lands.
But there is also the reason they keep harping 1000 year rule and Ghazwa-e-Hind etc.
to reassure their population that they are still strong and do not fear the bigger enemy India and also to make them numb to Enemy Propaganda that is by constant Behavioural modification and daily dose of propaganda.

In Research,Chimpanzees are made to do certain tasks by such Behavioural modification daily.
Their Army and Generals know all this is to boost the morale so they keep playing such propaganda and they also know how fast that morale will drop when they start a war.Like how their Entire army in Eastern Theater of war in 1971 collapsed and surrendered as 90,000 Pow's
They keep constantly playing India as boogeyman out to get them and to get support from their population for Military rule and the need to keep such modern military even at the expense of basic standard of living and infrastructure,
You might remember their famous quote "We will ear Grass, but we will make the bomb".The fear of our nation is real in their Army minds but for Civilians they will keep playing the music that can wipe out India in an instant to reassure them,all is well.because if they don't support for military will collapse fast. That is why you see them threaten with Nukes at every small instance.Only a insecure person does that as i have explained in the street fight example and most of the time those who shout a lot are the least likely to fight.
War might look easy on paper but in real it leaves deep psychological scars in people who take part in it.

Sir,

I am grateful for your insight---and I appreciate your post. If this is the standard that you judge us and if that is your analysis of how you are going tp conquer us----then it is a relief that I have not felt before.

Please feel free to carry on under those assumptions---thank you kindly.

Nope it won't. And there is no Pakistani link.....every time India has failed to prove 'beyond reasonable doubt' that state of Pakistan was involved in any terrorist attack.

All they can come up with is some lame telephone conversation and forced confessions. Pakistan is well versed in those cheap tactics.

Kid, it is easy to talk about war on PDF....i really hope you are the first one to take to the fight, when and if war breaks out, just so you know what is at stake.

Hi,

Fcuk--lazy me---yahoo had an article regarding Mumbai attacks----the british---the US---the Indians all had information---the U S did inform the Indians that the attack was coming from this direction---the Indians cared less---supposedly they did not connect the dots r did not want to connect them---whatever.

Despite intelligence, Mumbai attack wasn't foiled: NYT - Yahoo News India

Despite intelligence, Mumbai attack wasn't foiled: NYT
By Indo Asian News Service | IANS India Private Limited/Yahoo India News – Mon 22 Dec, 2014
New Delhi, Dec 22 (IANS) In one of the "most devastating near-misses in spycraft", intelligence agencies of India, the US and Britain failed to foil the 2008 Mumbai terrorist attack despite information from high-tech surveillance and other tools, The New York Times said Monday.
The daily said it had pieced together the story from classified documents, court files and dozens of interviews with current and former Indian, British and American officials.
According to the Times, 30-year-old computer expert Zarrar Shah "roamed from outposts in the northern mountains of Pakistan to safe houses near the Arabian Sea in the fall of 2008, plotting mayhem in Mumbai".
Shah, the technology chief of the Pakistani terrorist group Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT), and fellow conspirators used Google Earth to show terrorists the routes to their targets in the city, it said.
"He set up an Internet phone system to disguise his location by routing his calls through New Jersey.
"Shortly before (the) assault (on Mumbai) that would kill 166 people, including six Americans, Shah searched online for a Jewish hostel and two luxury hotels, all sites of the eventual carnage."
But he did not know that by September the British were spying on many of his online activities, tracking his Internet searches and messages, according to former American and Indian officials and classified documents from former American security contractor Edward J. Snowden.
Shah also drew similar scrutiny from an Indian intelligence agency, according to a former official briefed on the operation, the Times said.
"The US was unaware of the two agencies' efforts, American officials say, but had picked up signs of a plot through other electronic and human sources, and warned Indian security officials several times in the months before the attack," it said.
The Times said: "What happened next may rank among the most devastating near-misses in the history of spycraft.
"The intelligence agencies of the three nations did not pull together all the strands gathered by their high-tech surveillance and other tools, which might have allowed them to disrupt a terror strike so scarring that it is often called India's 9/11."
The daily quoted India's former National Security Advisor Shivshankar Menon as saying: "No one put together the whole picture. Not the Americans, not the Brits, not the Indians."
Menon added that only after the shooting started in Mumbai in November 2008 that everyone shared what they had, largely in meetings between British and Indian officials, and then "the picture instantly came into focus".
The British had access to a trove of data from Shah's communications but contend that the information was not specific enough to detect the threat.
"The Indians did not home in on the plot even with the alerts from the US."
The Times said that David Coleman Headley, a Pakistani-American who scouted targets in Mumbai, exchanged incriminating emails with plotters that went unnoticed until before his arrest in Chicago in late 2009.
"US counterterrorism agencies did not pursue reports from his unhappy wife, who told American officials long before the killings began that he was a Pakistani terrorist conducting mysterious missions in Mumbai.
"That hidden history of the Mumbai attacks reveals the vulnerability as well as the strengths of computer surveillance and intercepts as a counterterrorism weapon," it said.
However, later cooperation among the spy agencies helped analysts retrospectively piece together "a complete operations plan for the attacks", a top-secret NSA document said.
 
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Sir,

I am grateful for your insight---and I appreciate your post. If this is the standard that you judge us and if that is your analysis of how you are going tp conquer us----then it is a relief that I have not felt before.

Please feel free to carry on under those assumptions---thank you kindly.
.
Sir,I only posted my views on the psychological part of the war nothing more.
 
Well. when I see your post it seems you are trying to establish the old 1Pakistani =10Indian or I Muslim Pashtun=10 Hindu BS.Like you said jumping up and down is one thing.A battle against the Indian Army is the other thing.
We know how much your forces can go ?After all we have 4 successful major wars experience on our side.
You describes a lot about your Army.But you dont know anything about the other side and ever increasing gap your nation and my nation.

One victory is based on the knowing the limitation of other side also.We knows your limitation.I dont need to boast like that.
A weak man will try to fight A strong man will try to forget and i

See, in my post..I brought up all technical points...while you couldn't respond to any one of them.

And then you jumped to typical rhetoric of all 4 "successful" wars that india supposedly fought :lol:

Signing an agreement of ceasefire with a seven times smaller nation is, offcourse, a "successful" war for india ..

Anyways, I have laid out technical parameters of why a limited war with Pakistan will only result in indian losses and won't worth a cost for india. You haven't responded to any argument of mine but just went on to typical BS that fanboys spout on this forum all the time.

Good bye

Lol,

You really are in a make believe world, war isn't one. Pakistani generals fear the day when India decides to make another Bangladesh out.

Again, no response on technical arguments raised by me. Only gibberish of an insecure indian.

Yeah, we are really "scarrrreeeddddd" of india.....who retreated in humiliation last time two forces came at a stand-off on borders.

:rofl:
 

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