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‘The China Choice’

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http://sinosphere.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/10/16/hugh-white-on-the-china-choice/?_r=0

Australia has always been one of the United States’ most loyal allies, but now that the Australian economy depends mightily on the sale of iron ore to China, attitudes are a little more blurred. So perhaps it is not surprising that a provocative thesis — that the United States should share power with China in the Asia-Pacific region — should come from a former Australian government defense official.

In “The China Choice: Why America Should Share Power,” Hugh White, the principal author of Australia’s 2000 Defense White Paper and now a professor of strategic studies at Australian National University, argues that by accommodating China, the United States would reduce what he sees as the escalating chance of war. Far from being appeasement, as some in Washington argue, this would be a realistic solution, in Mr. White’s view, to what many see as the overriding question of the coming decades: how China and the United States will resolve their basic differences.

If the two countries continue to compete for primacy in the Pacific, a new Cold War — or worse, an open conflict — will be the result, he says. Many American analysts agree that conflict between China and the United States is possible, maybe increasingly likely. But few buy the argument that the United States is losing ground to China and must consider a power-sharing arrangement to avoid war.

“The strategic rivalry between the United States and China is driven by their different and incompatible roles in the region,” Mr. White said during a recent visit to Beijing, where he spoke to several academic groups, including a generally favorable audience organized by the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences. “The principal aim of the United States is to preserve American primacy in Asia. China conversely wants, as a minimum objective, at least an equal role with United States. Primacy for the United States, equality for China — they are inherently incompatible.”

Mr. White outlines a chilling view of what could happen in the East China Sea in the territorial dispute between China and Japan over the islands known as the Diaoyu in China and the Senkaku in Japan.

“China is seeking to use the island dispute to demonstrate to the rest of Asia that the United States cannot support its allies in Asia in the face of China’s growing power,” Mr. White said. The willingness of China to press Japan over the islands — sending close-in sea patrols, refusing to talk until Japan softens its position — suggests “a high level of confidence that America won’t support Japan,” he said.

The Chinese, he warned, are “seriously underestimating” Washington’s resolve to back Japan, he said.

Here is one possible scenario: Mr. White puts the risk of an exchange of fire that would result in ship being sunk or a plane shot down by either Japan or China in the East China Sea at 20 percent. That may not sound like much of a risk, but given the horrendous consequences should this happen, it is greater than it may sound, he said.

“That 20 percent is a very high probability for something which has such outcomes,” he said. Should such a confrontation occur, the chance of Japan seeking American support would be 90 percent, he estimates, and the chance of the United States providing that support would be 95 percent. The probability of a conflict between China and Japan then escalating into war between the United States and China is high, he said.

Mr. White is hardly a gadfly. From 1995 to 2000 he held senior positions in the Australian Department of Defense, including deputy secretary for strategy and intelligence. Because of Australia’s close alliance with the United States, and the high degree of shared intelligence, Mr. White was privy to America’s secrets during his time in government.

He has worked with many officials in Washington, so for that reason alone his argument has been attracting attention. The Asia Society has shortlisted “The China Choice” for this year’s Bernard Schwartz Book Award, which honors works that explain contemporary Asia or U.S.-Asia relations to general audiences. (The winner is to be announced at the end of October). His thesis, he acknowledges, falls into the category of the stimulating, rather than the popular.

“ ‘I don’t agree with you, but let’s go and have lunch,’ ” is how he describes the reaction in Washington so far. “Many American officials believe U.S. exceptionalism will prevail.”

From 1985 to 1990, Mr. White worked as a private secretary to Kim Beazley, who was then minister of defense and is now the Australian ambassador to the United States. The two are good friends. Does Mr. Beazley agree with him?

“He does not buy my argument,” Mr. White said. “He can’t imagine a world where the United States doesn’t have the biggest economy and the strongest military.”

In Asia, though, Mr. White’s argument is gaining support and, in some quarters, direct echoes, especially in the wake of President Obama’s recent absence from the Asian summit meetings in Indonesia and Brunei.

“Washington will be better off negotiating new power-sharing arrangements with Beijing, instead of seeking to contain the rise of China by rounding up its allies and friends in the region,” wrote Sabam Siagian and Endy M. Bayuni, two prominent Indonesian writers and former Nieman fellows at Harvard, in an opinion piece in The Jakarta Post last week. “Asia would welcome a U.S. policy that will, of necessity, be vastly different from the 2011 pivot, and one that is more realistic and less gung-ho.”

Sounds like Mr. White lite.
 
http://sinosphere.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/10/16/hugh-white-on-the-china-choice/?_r=0

Australia has always been one of the United States’ most loyal allies, but now that the Australian economy depends mightily on the sale of iron ore to China, attitudes are a little more blurred. So perhaps it is not surprising that a provocative thesis — that the United States should share power with China in the Asia-Pacific region — should come from a former Australian government defense official.

In “The China Choice: Why America Should Share Power,” Hugh White, the principal author of Australia’s 2000 Defense White Paper and now a professor of strategic studies at Australian National University, argues that by accommodating China, the United States would reduce what he sees as the escalating chance of war. Far from being appeasement, as some in Washington argue, this would be a realistic solution, in Mr. White’s view, to what many see as the overriding question of the coming decades: how China and the United States will resolve their basic differences.

If the two countries continue to compete for primacy in the Pacific, a new Cold War — or worse, an open conflict — will be the result, he says. Many American analysts agree that conflict between China and the United States is possible, maybe increasingly likely. But few buy the argument that the United States is losing ground to China and must consider a power-sharing arrangement to avoid war.

“The strategic rivalry between the United States and China is driven by their different and incompatible roles in the region,” Mr. White said during a recent visit to Beijing, where he spoke to several academic groups, including a generally favorable audience organized by the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences. “The principal aim of the United States is to preserve American primacy in Asia. China conversely wants, as a minimum objective, at least an equal role with United States. Primacy for the United States, equality for China — they are inherently incompatible.”

Mr. White outlines a chilling view of what could happen in the East China Sea in the territorial dispute between China and Japan over the islands known as the Diaoyu in China and the Senkaku in Japan.

“China is seeking to use the island dispute to demonstrate to the rest of Asia that the United States cannot support its allies in Asia in the face of China’s growing power,” Mr. White said. The willingness of China to press Japan over the islands — sending close-in sea patrols, refusing to talk until Japan softens its position — suggests “a high level of confidence that America won’t support Japan,” he said.

The Chinese, he warned, are “seriously underestimating” Washington’s resolve to back Japan, he said.

Here is one possible scenario: Mr. White puts the risk of an exchange of fire that would result in ship being sunk or a plane shot down by either Japan or China in the East China Sea at 20 percent. That may not sound like much of a risk, but given the horrendous consequences should this happen, it is greater than it may sound, he said.

“That 20 percent is a very high probability for something which has such outcomes,” he said. Should such a confrontation occur, the chance of Japan seeking American support would be 90 percent, he estimates, and the chance of the United States providing that support would be 95 percent. The probability of a conflict between China and Japan then escalating into war between the United States and China is high, he said.

Mr. White is hardly a gadfly. From 1995 to 2000 he held senior positions in the Australian Department of Defense, including deputy secretary for strategy and intelligence. Because of Australia’s close alliance with the United States, and the high degree of shared intelligence, Mr. White was privy to America’s secrets during his time in government.

He has worked with many officials in Washington, so for that reason alone his argument has been attracting attention. The Asia Society has shortlisted “The China Choice” for this year’s Bernard Schwartz Book Award, which honors works that explain contemporary Asia or U.S.-Asia relations to general audiences. (The winner is to be announced at the end of October). His thesis, he acknowledges, falls into the category of the stimulating, rather than the popular.

“ ‘I don’t agree with you, but let’s go and have lunch,’ ” is how he describes the reaction in Washington so far. “Many American officials believe U.S. exceptionalism will prevail.”

From 1985 to 1990, Mr. White worked as a private secretary to Kim Beazley, who was then minister of defense and is now the Australian ambassador to the United States. The two are good friends. Does Mr. Beazley agree with him?

“He does not buy my argument,” Mr. White said. “He can’t imagine a world where the United States doesn’t have the biggest economy and the strongest military.”

In Asia, though, Mr. White’s argument is gaining support and, in some quarters, direct echoes, especially in the wake of President Obama’s recent absence from the Asian summit meetings in Indonesia and Brunei.

“Washington will be better off negotiating new power-sharing arrangements with Beijing, instead of seeking to contain the rise of China by rounding up its allies and friends in the region,” wrote Sabam Siagian and Endy M. Bayuni, two prominent Indonesian writers and former Nieman fellows at Harvard, in an opinion piece in The Jakarta Post last week. “Asia would welcome a U.S. policy that will, of necessity, be vastly different from the 2011 pivot, and one that is more realistic and less gung-ho.”

Sounds like Mr. White lite.

I still don't know why article from the like of Carlo Kopps and Hugh White are keep finding their way to repeat and repeat over and over again in this forum even after people in Australian Academic keep discrediting their academic work over and over again

Hugh White is basically described as a "Suck Up to the Chinese. Honestly, in Australian Academic circle, some even suggest that he is under Chinese payment

While true we need to and already turning more to China, cause this is where the money at, but if Australia have to choose between US and China, Australia will choose the US anyday

You want to hear why and proof? Simple. Kevin Rudd is as pro-China as they come today, he speak perfect Mandarin, he has extensive knowledge in Chinese Culture, he worked and live in China for a few year, heck, he even have a Chinese Son in law. Hugh White cannot do anything when Rudd reign in 2007-2010 and this year, and now, even Kevin have shown the door and was called a bastard. Replacing him with Australian Choice?? The liberal party that pro-US.

Australia need to buy in the Chinese Market, that's where our company is heading, but on the otherhand, market is what they buy, nothing else. Australian have spoken for that already.
 
I still don't know why article from the like of Carlo Kopps and Hugh White are keep finding their way to repeat and repeat over and over again in this forum even after people in Australian Academic keep discrediting their academic work over and over again

Hugh White is basically described as a "Suck Up to the Chinese. Honestly, in Australian Academic circle, some even suggest that he is under Chinese payment

While true we need to and already turning more to China, cause this is where the money at, but if Australia have to choose between US and China, Australia will choose the US anyday

You want to hear why and proof? Simple. Kevin Rudd is as pro-China as they come today, he speak perfect Mandarin, he has extensive knowledge in Chinese Culture, he worked and live in China for a few year, heck, he even have a Chinese Son in law. Hugh White cannot do anything when Rudd reign in 2007-2010 and this year, and now, even Kevin have shown the door and was called a bastard. Replacing him with Australian Choice?? The liberal party that pro-US.

Australia need to buy in the Chinese Market, that's where our company is heading, but on the otherhand, market is what they buy, nothing else. Australian have spoken for that already.

Hugh White and Carlo Kopp knows a helluva lot more about economics and military than a half-baked Vietnamese like you son.

Australian economy is totally dependent on us. When we sneeze, Australia don't get a cold......they get pneumonia.

Our markets are bigger, our direct investment is growing, our currencies are doing direct trading, the new Australian regime in power is begging for a FTA with us, we are the 2nd largest source of tourists to Australia, Chinese students are number 1 group studying in Australia. Australia and every other Asian country's future (economic, financial and military) is with mighty China. Anyone denying it just don't realise the sheer scale and might that we already have and will possess as the years go by. Forget America, in a few decades, the entire western world combined will struggle to hang with us in all areas. We are mighty and others better deal with it.

We even have space tracking station in Australia. We have started doing military exercises together. In the future Australia will be buying our weapons too.

America is a 20th century power that's in rapid decline.
America ain't touching us in the 21st century.
 
Hugh White and Carlo Kopp knows a helluva lot more about economics and military than a half-baked Vietnamese like you son.

Australian economy is totally dependent on us. When we sneeze, .

Lost interest after these line.

Next....
 
...
America ain't touching us in the 21st century.
China will become a economic and military superpower in this century, but thanks to your arrogance you will never become a repected and much-admired superpower like the British and America in the 19 and 20 century respectively.

Your inability to win friends and allies in the world is your weakness. Many see your rise with suspicion. Congrat.
 
China will be economic and military power, but it will not be superpower.

Being a superpower would need to have influence in the world, from political poweress to culture, which China contribute not much in the international level.

Also, in order to have china to be militarily superpower, it cannot be challenged locally, and it have to pacify all their neighbour, where as china yet to be able to do that, that I want to ask, if a country cannot have absolute command locally, how can they affect in a scheme internationally?

Unless china can physically subdue Vietnam, Taiwan, India, Japan, Philippine and South Korea in this 100 years, china can not be evaluated into superpower status
 
China will be economic and military, but it will not be superpower.

Being a superpower would need to have influence in the world, from political poweress to culture, which China contribute not much in the international level.

Also, in order to have china to be militarily superpower, it must cannot be challenged locally, and it have to pacify all their neighbour, where as china yet to be able to do that, that I want to ask, if a country cannot have absolute command locally, how can they affect in a scheme internationally?

Unless china can physically subdue Vietnam, Taiwan, India, Japan, Philippine and South Korea in this 100 years, china can not be evaluated into superpower status

Being a superpower - not only have military, political and economic power. You need to have a civilization project, a model of human development.
So far, China has no such project - China is a cross between a model of the USSR and the USA.
However, the Russian project while also absent. And without a global project you can not be interest to the states and the peoples.
 
Being a superpower - not only have military, political and economic power. You need to have a civilization project, a model of human development.
So far, China has no such project - China is a cross between a model of the USSR and the USA.
However, the Russian project while also absent. And without a global project you can not be interest to the states and the peoples.

Well, For a change this is something we can both agree on
 
What's the point being a superpower, anyway ?
 
Our model of human development is not to do the following:

US actions:

I'm not talking about the mistakes of the U.S. government. I'm talking that the U.S. has its own model for the future of humanity (not that it works, but declared, at least as a target) - freedom of speech, tolerance, free market and so on .
The Soviet Union also had its own model - the equality of all people, the friendship of the nations, the unity of the working class, and so on.
China has no such model - China has capitalism under the leadership of the Communist Party. What does the Communist Party - just an administrative unit, it does not carry to people the ideas of communism.
 
We do not seek hegemony, we will become the worlds first peaceful superpower.
It will be our own model.
We don't seek war (like the Yankee goons) but we do business.
The Yankees bring death and destruction and we bring goods, services, investment, technology, build infrastructure.

We are the leader of the peace loving world.

To become a leader of the peace loving world you will have to fight a lot, as fought the Soviet Union. Because if you will not defend your allies - they destroy them and make puppets.
You can be a peaceful country in the world where there is no aggressive NATO, which bombed one country after another , leaving behind chaos and terror .
But as long as NATO still exist - peaceful nations will have to prepare for war.
And then, may be , when Russia and China prevail against the West - perhaps a socialist civilization project will be revived and the friendship of the people , the unity of the proletariat , freedom , equality and brotherhood triumph.
Personally, I believe in it .
 
There's a lot more to being a superpower.

Much of the money that flows through global organizations like the UN, World Bank, and others come from the US. I don't think China, or anyone else can do that. Not to mention that the international financial system is centered in the US.

That's one of the reasons why they are superpower. They have control over the very lifeblood of the global system, be it economics or security. Sorry to say, but China isn't up for that right now. One can throw a tantrum or two for cause of patriotism, but that doesn't change the fact on the ground.
 
There's a lot more to being a superpower.

Much of the money that flows through global organizations like the UN, World Bank, and others come from the US. I don't think China, or anyone else can do that. Not to mention that the international financial system is centered in the US.

That's one of the reasons why they are superpower. They have control over the very lifeblood of the global system, be it economics or security. Sorry to say, but China isn't up for that right now. One can throw a tantrum or two for cause of patriotism, but that doesn't change the fact on the ground.

Yes their dollar monopoly is the principle source of their power. Once the dollar's dominance ends, their economy will collapse and with it their military will disintegrate.

That's why we are now taking steps to reform our financial system to set up the Renminbi to challenge the dollar's role as reserve currency.

Underestimate us at your own peril :coffee:
 
Yes their dollar monopoly is the principle source of their power. Once the dollar's dominance ends, their economy will collapse and with it their military will disintegrate.

That's why we are now taking steps to reform our financial system to set up the Renminbi to challenge the dollar's role as reserve currency.

And how will the US economy collapse exactly? You do know your economy will be negatively impacted along with all other 3rd world economies? US consumerism is....big....

Underestimate us at your own peril :coffee:

Correction: Don't underestimate the US. Only a fool with a price on his head would do so otherwise.
 
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