Fatwah against Suicide attack by Deobandi ulemas

[waz]

To pray to other than Allah is shirk, this much goes without saying.For me to make a general statement is not the same as making takfir of a individual. So if I say in general that anyone who worships other than Allah is a mushrik that is not the same as me naming a particular individual and declaring him to be a kaafir.Before an individual can be made takfir of there are certain procedures that need to be carried out beforehand.

You said the “Brelvis” were a sect out of Islam and now you're saying that you don't want to make a blanket judgment. So what is it?

Yes certain people do commit such acts, but if were you to ask them whether they worship the person or Allah, they will say Allah. The priority here is to educate and not to rant all over a forum.

Its a good job this isn't a Barelvi forum with draconian rules where no one is allowed to question the words of the pir sahb.

If you have any issues with what Ive said point them out in a matter of fact way so that we can discuss them.

For you to scream foul and call on the moderators to intervene is just a pathetic attempt on your part to stifle debate and discussion.

I seriously have no idea what the sentence in bold means as your comprehension is awful. Could you please correct it?

I'm not screaming foul, don't twist things. You quite clearly made a blanket statement about "Brelvis" above, which I responded to. Unless that was someone else, tying that on your keyboard, I stand by calling the moderators in. There is certainly nothing "pathetic", as you so rudely termed it, about that.

 

[EagleEyes]

CO,

You have no authority to call somebody a kafir. It is Allah who decides, keep your opinions which might hurt other people beliefs to YOURSELF.

Thanks.

 

[Conscientious objector]

You said the “Brelvis” were a sect out of Islam and now you're saying that you don't want to make a blanket judgment. So what is it?

You obviously have a problem understanding clear and simple statements.Where have I stated that I do not want to make a blanket judgment? In fact I said the exact opposite and that is I do not want to make statements about specific individuals but in general those who commit acts/have beliefs of shirk are Mushrikeen.

Yes certain people do commit such acts, but if were you to ask them whether they worship the person or Allah, they will say Allah. The priority here is to educate and not to rant all over a forum.

Regardless of how these people seek to justify their actions the reality remains the same,their actions are shirk.Now you say we need to educate,well the first part of educating is knowing what the problem is,even before we discuss solutions we must identify the problem.A brother inquired about certain practices and I informed him of the rulings relating to those practices.How is this ranting?

I seriously have no idea what the sentence in bold means as your comprehension is awful. Could you please correct it?

You cant understand my sentence,so that makes my comprehension awful? I don't think you know what the word comprehension means,I haven't failed to comprehend anything, you on the other hand have.There is nothing wrong or difficult to understand in the way I have worded or structured the sentence you have highlighted.Its straightforward and self explanatory.

I'm not screaming foul, don't twist things. You quite clearly made a blanket statement about "Brelvis" above, which I responded to.

I made a general statement yes,but instead of addressing exactly why you felt it was incorrect you stooped to the lowly level of calling upon the moderators to delete my post.

Unless that was someone else, tying that on your keyboard, I stand by calling the moderators in. There is certainly nothing "pathetic", as you so rudely termed it, about that.

Again explain why you think my statement is wrong.It seems you accept that making dua to graves is shirk,you must also accept that this is a practice that the barelvis are involved inSo what is your point? I agree to correct tis we would not approach ividual barelvis and label them as mushriks,that would not be the correct way to rectify the situation but at the same time we should not shy away from informing people that praying to other than Allah is making shirk with Allah.



O.K just to explain the sentence you had problems comprehending even though I feel no explanation is required I will attempt to spell it out for you.

"If you have any issues with what Ive said point them out in a matter of fact way so that we can discuss them."

1)"If you have any issues with" or in other words, if you have a problem with (which you obviously do) or if you disagree with,or if you feel my statements are incorrect etc etc.

2)"With what Ive said point them out in a matter of fact way" or in other words, with my statements explain what your disagreements are without getting emotional, or with my assertions inform me of what they are in a point by point fashion,or with my understanding then do clarify what you feel is incorrect without crying out for moderator intervention etc etc.


3)"So that we can discuss them" or in other words so we can resolve the disagreement, or so we can come to some form of common understanding,or so that we may get a better understanding of each others point of view etc etc.

comprende


.

 

[Conscientious objector]

CO,

You have no authority to call somebody a kafir. It is Allah who decides, keep your opinions which might hurt other people beliefs to YOURSELF.

Thanks.

Dear webmaster I feel there wasn't any need for you to delete my post.I did not call any individual a kaafir i.e I did not specify a particular person and name him/label him a kaafir.

I merely pointed out the ruling on certain unIslamic practices, yes the name of a particular sect was used but that was in response to a question that was asked about that particular sect.

Anyway whilst I disagree with your decision I do respect it. thanks.

 

[waraich66]

Dear webmaster I feel there wasn't any need for you to delete my post.I did not call any individual a kaafir i.e I did not specify a particular person and name him/label him a kaafir.

I merely pointed out the ruling on certain unIslamic practices, yes the name of a particular sect was used but that was in response to a question that was asked about that particular sect.

Anyway whilst I disagree with your decision I do respect it. thanks.

We should not critise any sect of islam , Darkness is due to absence of light ,it has no existance.

 

[Righteous_Fire]

Why should a secular non Muslim kaafir government dictate to Mulsim Ulema what Islamic rulings they should issue?Why would any genuine alim follow the orders of the kaafir GOP?

Islam is not based on the desires of the disbelievers but upon the divine scriptures.

Where do you live Buddy! In the Andromeda Galaxy!!

Why should a secular

Pakistan is not Secular, It is the Islamic Republic Of Pakistan, that means it is Secular in the light of Shariah, i.e. though the Official Religion is Islam, all non-Muslim Pakistanis are fully allowed to practice their religion as is said by the Quran(Allah) and the Sahih Hadith of the Prophet and the Khulafa i Rashideen, the only worship not allowed under the Shariah is Satanism and new found cults.

non Muslim

From the President to the peon of the Water and Sanitation Deptt. almost all officials are Muslims except for a few like the Minister for Minorities and so on. By the Word of God in the Quran, anyone who says and believes the Shahada is a Muslim and none except God can call him a non-muslim, so you have no right to say otherwise

kaafir

No one can call a person who says the Shahadah a Kaafir, it is considered a great great sin, choose your words carefully and wisely Brother

kaafir government

The Govt. of Pakistan is not Kaafir Yes we still have usury (Sood) even 60+ years after the creation of Pakistan ka matlab kya? La ilaha illal Lah but that is not due to Kufar, thats because of the people of Pakistan who have forgotten the rulings of God. The Constitution Pakistan makes it clear that all Laws must be made Islamic. As a firebrand Muslim, have you ever filed a single petition in the Supreme Court or done a campaign for the National Assembly to Ban Usury(sood) ? No! even when that is the only way how Democracies work!

government dictate to Mulsim Ulema

They suggest, not dictate, even the not so mainstream Islam ministers have stated they would like the Ulema to play a more center stage role.

the kaafir GOP?

May Allah have mercy on your soul

Islam is not based on the desires of the disbelievers but upon the divine scriptures.

This is the only part of your post I completely agree with

Advice: Now grow up and listen up! Pakistan is a Democracy, Democracies work only through a well informed and active citizenry, you have trouble with any of our laws or with Sood, you should work within the system, use the Supreme Court, the Media, go to your elected representatives and the National Assembly, thats how Democracies work. Whining like a little girl certainly aint gonna help

 

[seekers]

Objectors not only thinks that GOP is kaafir but also ones who don't belong to their sect.
walls of Pakistan is evidence of their belief.
Mullah is 90% responsible for war of terrorism in the world and rest 10% is US.
All terrorist are inspired with fanatic mullahs ideologies.

 

[waz]

You obviously have a problem understanding clear and simple statements.Where have I stated that I do not want to make a blanket judgment? In fact I said the exact opposite and that is I do not want to make statements about specific individuals but in general those who commit acts/have beliefs of shirk are Mushrikeen.
.

And now you are beginning to play with your words. I asked you a clear question on whether you believe that the brelvis are not Muslims, you responded by saying that I don’t wish to make takfir, when you quite clearly have. I simply asked you for clarification. In actual fact making blanket statements is worse than making takfir on an individual, as you pronounce takfir on hundreds of millions, instead of the one person!

Regardless of how these people seek to justify their actions the reality remains the same,their actions are shirk.Now you say we need to educate,well the first part of educating is knowing what the problem is,even before we discuss solutions we must identify the problem.A brother inquired about certain practices and I informed him of the rulings relating to those practices.How is this ranting?

My suggestion to you was instead of launching condemnations of an entire people, you could better spend that time on correcting aspects of their belief you deem wrong. As for the “rulings” that’s your opinion.

You cant understand my sentence,so that makes my comprehension awful? I don't think you know what the word comprehension means,I haven't failed to comprehend anything, you on the other hand have.There is nothing wrong or difficult to understand in the way I have worded or structured the sentence you have highlighted.Its straightforward and self explanatory.

No, your sentence made no sense, both grammatically and in terms of the message you were trying to put across.

Here is what you said;

If you have any issues with what Ive said point them out in a matter of fact way so that we can discuss them.

The mistakes here are I’ve and what is “a matter of fact way”? You can’t be serious, on why someone may find that difficult to understand. Don’t you mean, let us discuss the facts?

I made a general statement yes,but instead of addressing exactly why you felt it was incorrect you stooped to the lowly level of calling upon the moderators to delete my post.

I made that clear to you, when I said Brelvis are Muslims, you said they are all kaffirs by saying they are a “sect OUT OF Islam”. Which is something you keep on avoiding. Also how on god’s earth is it low to go to the moderators? Do you know how things are done around here? You are new, but it wouldn’t hurt to have a look at the rules and you infringed those by making an attack on an entire group of Muslims. When you see such a thing you report the post! If you have a problem with this, don’t post here, webmaster has already warned you once.

Again explain why you think my statement is wrong.It seems you accept that making dua to graves is shirk,you must also accept that this is a practice that the barelvis are involved inSo what is your point? I agree to correct tis we would not approach ividual barelvis and label them as mushriks,that would not be the correct way to rectify the situation but at the same time we should not shy away from informing people that praying to other than Allah is making shirk with Allah.

They don’t understand the concept of Tawasul. That needs to be corrected. The dua, in the true form of Islamic etiquette is asked from Allah. But there is no harm in a person saying “Ya Allah I am at the grave of such a pious person and I ask you to help me”. Instead they ask the person in the grave directly and leave Allah aside.

Shaykh Faraz Rabbani writes a brilliant piece on this, from the respected sunnipath website.

Sunni Saint Worshippers?

Could all brothers please read the above link!

O.K just to explain the sentence you had problems comprehending even though I feel no explanation is required I will attempt to spell it out for you

Oh brother, you can’t even spell individual lol! This is how you spelt it in the fifth paragraph “ividual”. Please keep the “spell it out for me” part to yourself, as I have already talked about the sentence, in my writing above. How about you “spell it out for yourself”?

comprende

Comprende, indeed lol…..

 

[Conscientious objector]

And now you are beginning to play with your words. I asked you a clear question on whether you believe that the brelvis are not Muslims, you responded by saying that I don’t wish to make takfir,

This is the second statement that you have attributed to me that is untrue, the first was "now you're saying that you don't want to make a blanket judgment." I asked you to show me where exactly I am supposed to have said this,you have failed to do that.If you are going to discuss then do not resort to distorting my statements.

when you quite clearly have. I simply asked you for clarification. In actual fact making blanket statements is worse than making takfir on an individual, as you pronounce takfir on hundreds of millions, instead of the one person!

Actually making a general statement is not worse than declaring a named individual to be a kaafir. To state that certain practices or beliefs are kufr and that a particular group is involved in those practices is not worse than naming people and declaring them to be kuffar.As I already explained to you, that before a individual is excommunicated certain procedures need to be followed or certain information needs to be ascertained.

My suggestion to you was instead of launching condemnations of an entire people, you could better spend that time on correcting aspects of their belief you deem wrong. As for the “rulings” that’s your opinion.

How do you expect to correct shirk and kufr if your not prepared to label it as such?

No, your sentence made no sense, both grammatically and in terms of the message you were trying to put across.

Here is what you said;

If you have any issues with what Ive said point them out in a matter of fact way so that we can discuss them.

O.K lets see shall we?

The mistakes here are I’ve

I've is an abbreviation of I have, so the sentence would read "if you have any issues with what I have (I've) said. What is wrong with this?

and what is “a matter of fact way”?

For your information/education the dictionary gives this explanation for the term.

mat·ter-of-fact
adj.
1. Relating or adhering to facts; literal.
2. Straightforward or unemotional: "the matter-of-fact tones in which the local guides describe the history of the various places" (New York Times).

You can’t be serious, on why someone may find that difficult to understand. Don’t you mean, let us discuss the facts?

No actually I was serious and surprised that you didn't understand,but the fact is even if my sentence was incorrect (which it wasn't) that would not imply that my comprehension skills were amiss as you suggested.Rather the one who does not understand is the one who has a problem with his comprehension

I made that clear to you, when I said Brelvis are Muslims, you said they are all kaffirs by saying they are a “sect OUT OF Islam”. Which is something you keep on avoiding.

Whilst the beliefs of this sect are outside of Islam that does not mean that every single person who is associated with the barelvi jamat adheres to or believes in every aspect of barelvism.So there could be many people who would call themselves barelvis but would not necessarily hold the deviant aspects of the beliefs of the barelvis.

Also how on god’s earth is it low to go to the moderators?

Its low because it shows you cannot deal with the issues being discussed,if you had a problem you should have sought to refute it yourself.

Do you know how things are done around here? You are new, but it wouldn’t hurt to have a look at the rules and you infringed those by making an attack on an entire group of Muslims.

How do you define whether a group is Mulsim or not?

They don’t understand the concept of Tawasul. That needs to be corrected. The dua, in the true form of Islamic etiquette is asked from Allah. But there is no harm in a person saying “Ya Allah I am at the grave of such a pious person and I ask you to help me”. Instead they ask the person in the grave directly and leave Allah aside

.

OK so you do consider this practice of making dua to the person in the grave as being shirk correct?

Shaykh Faraz Rabbani writes a brilliant piece on this, from the respected sunnipath website.

Sunni Saint Worshippers?

Could all brothers please read the above link!

Farraz Rabbani doesn't have a problem with people calling upon those in the graves,it seems you do.So your position contradicts that of Rabbanis. I will deal with Rabbani's erroneous fatawa once you have clarified your position. I would also advise everyone not to rely on the likes of Farraz Rabbani for Islamic knowledge, he has sought to justify clear and open shirk in this fatawa.

Oh brother, you can’t even spell individual lol! This is how you spelt it in the fifth paragraph “ividual”. Please keep the “spell it out for me” part to yourself, as I have already talked about the sentence, in my writing above. How about you “spell it out for yourself”?

Yes I made a mistake I am not perfect and I've (that means I have) never claimed to be, but it's clear from my posts that I did spell the word individual correctly before that, and that was just a typo and it wasn't because I didn't know the correct spelling.

 

[Conscientious objector]

Where do you live Buddy! In the Andromeda Galaxy!!

Yeah far out dude

Pakistan is not Secular, It is the Islamic Republic Of Pakistan, that means it is Secular in the light of Shariah, i.e. though the Official Religion is Islam, all non-Muslim Pakistanis are fully allowed to practice their religion as is said by the Quran(Allah) and the Sahih Hadith of the Prophet and the Khulafa i Rashideen, the only worship not allowed under the Shariah is Satanism and new found cults.

You say Pakistan is not secular and then say it is Secular in the light of Shariah that doesn't make sense at all.The fact is Pakistan is a secular state regardless of what is in the constitution.The constitution is not adhered to so it is of little or no importance.

From the President to the peon of the Water and Sanitation Deptt. almost all officials are Muslims except for a few like the Minister for Minorities and so on. By the Word of God in the Quran, anyone who says and believes the Shahada is a Muslim and none except God can call him a non-muslim, so you have no right to say otherwise

What if someone claims to be a Muslim yet worships idols would you still regard him as being a Muslim?

No one can call a person who says the Shahadah a Kaafir, it is considered a great great sin, choose your words carefully and wisely Brother

Do you consider qadianis to be Muslims?

The Govt. of Pakistan is not Kaafir

Do you know what constitutes being a Muslim? Do you know the nawaqid of Iman? Are you aware that certain practices nullify your Islam?

Yes we still have usury (Sood) even 60+ years after the creation of Pakistan ka matlab kya? La ilaha illal Lah but that is not due to Kufar, thats because of the people of Pakistan who have forgotten the rulings of God. The Constitution Pakistan makes it clear that all Laws must be made Islamic

.

The constitution is ignored so it doesn't matter what it states does it?

As a firebrand Muslim, have you ever filed a single petition in the Supreme Court or done a campaign for the National Assembly to Ban Usury(sood) ? No! even when that is the only way how Democracies work!

Tell me as a enlightened moderate do you have any Idea as to what the Islamic ruling on the matter is?

They suggest, not dictate, even the not so mainstream Islam ministers have stated they would like the Ulema to play a more center stage role.

The thread starter was stating that the Gov should dictate to the Ulema what fatawa to issue, I was responding to him.

May Allah have mercy on your soul

Aameen

This is the only part of your post I completely agree with

nice to see you are not totally clueless

Advice: Now grow up and listen up! Pakistan is a Democracy, Democracies work only through a well informed and active citizenry, you have trouble with any of our laws or with Sood, you should work within the system, use the Supreme Court, the Media, go to your elected representatives and the National Assembly, thats how Democracies work. Whining like a little girl certainly aint gonna help

Is anything of what you have advised from Islam? No it is isn't. My advice to you is to learn your deen find out what the Islamic way of doing things is rather than the democratic way.


P.S Your not a Qadiani are you?


.

 

[Righteous_Fire]

^ @ Conscientious objector:

Its good to know that you have a taste for discussion, and though your reply requires my feedback but doing that sets us off from the topic of this thread:

Fatwah against Suicide attack by Deobandi ulemas

I needed to question and clarify your not well thought responses to Muslims, Pakistanis and Pakistan, since I have dear love for all of them



Since that has been clarified, I no longer wish to continue this debate on this thread, however If you are in the mood of discussion, I would gladly join you in a new thread of your own choosing, whatever topic or length.

P.S.:

“He who curses a believer, it is as if he has killed him. And he who accuses a believer of kufr, it is as if he has killed him.” (Bukhari)

It is in Hadith that once during a military expedition a man, when he saw the Muslims, said: “Assalamu Alaikum, there is no god but Allah, and Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah.” But a Muslim killed him, thinking that the man had proclaimed the Kalima just to save his own life. When the Holy Prophet heard of this, he was very angry, and he reprimanded that Muslim. But he replied:

“O Messenger of Allah, that man read the Kalima merely to protect himself from our sword.”

The Holy Prophet said:

“Did you open his heart and look inside it?”


A companion of the Holy Prophet asked:

“If a man (in battle) attacks me and cuts off my hand, but when I attack him he recites the Kalima, can I kill him in these circumstances?”

The Holy Prophet said: “No.” The companion said:

“O Messenger of Allah, he cut off my hand.”

The Holy Prophet said:

“Despite that, you cannot kill him. If you do kill him then he will have the rank which you had before you killed him, and you will have the rank which he had before he recited the Kalima.”


“Surely your Lord knows best who strays from His path, and knows best who follows the guidance.” (The Holy Quran, 53:30)

 

[waz]

This is the second statement that you have attributed to me that is untrue, the first was "now you're saying that you don't want to make a blanket judgment." I asked you to show me where exactly I am supposed to have said this,you have failed to do that.If you are going to discuss then do not resort to distorting my statements.

You are going around in circles now and what I said to you was clear. I asked you for clarification, but yet you bring in all sorts of irrelevant discussion.

Actually making a general statement is not worse than declaring a named individual to be a kaafir. To state that certain practices or beliefs are kufr and that a particular group is involved in those practices is not worse than naming people and declaring them to be kuffar.As I already explained to you, that before a individual is excommunicated certain procedures need to be followed or certain information needs to be ascertained.

No it’s not, you declared many out of the fold of Islam, as opposed to an individual. Read your own words again. Those millions who declare themselves Brelvis are out of Islam, according to you. Yes there is a course of events that have to be carried out to declare someone out of the fold of Islam. One wonders if such procedures are in place for one individual, how you can call an entire people out of Islam is incredible!

How do you expect to correct shirk and kufr if your not prepared to label it as such?

How can Shirk and Iman exist in the same heart? By saying that, you are excommunicating someone… Do you even know the gravity of the word you throw around like some loose change?

I've is an abbreviation of I have, so the sentence would read "if you have any issues with what I have (I've) said. What is wrong with this?

You didn’t put the apostrophe in lol……I’m glad you finally corrected your sentence.

For your information/education the dictionary gives this explanation for the term.
mat•ter-of-fact
adj.
1. Relating or adhering to facts; literal.
2. Straightforward or unemotional: "the matter-of-fact tones in which the local guides describe the history of the various places" (New York Times).

Do you actually read your sentences? Yes I know what a “matter of fact” means, but have a look at your own sentence. Matter-of-fact, is how you should have put it and given the “way” a miss. I have a suggestion for you, how about this?

If you have any issues with what I’ve said, point them out in a matter-of-fact way, so that we can discuss them.

As opposed to your own sentence, that lacked basic punctuation.

If you have any issues with what Ive said point them out in a matter of fact way so that we can discuss them.

No actually I was serious and surprised that you didn't understand,but the fact is even if my sentence was incorrect (which it wasn't) that would not imply that my comprehension skills were amiss as you suggested.Rather the one who does not understand is the one who has a problem with his comprehension

Hilarious to say the least…Take a look at your own sentence above and then tell me who needs to learn comprehension.

Whilst the beliefs of this sect are outside of Islam that does not mean that every single person who is associated with the barelvi jamat adheres to or believes in every aspect of barelvism.So there could be many people who would call themselves barelvis but would not necessarily hold the deviant aspects of the beliefs of the barelvis.

Most of the Brelvis hold similar core beliefs. The key word here is “beliefs”, as you stated. It is very unlikely that an individual, who calls him or herself Brelvi, would not follow these “beliefs”. Like you said, it is not one thing we are talking about but several beliefs. Someone will simply not be a “brelvi” or call themselves such of they do not follow several beliefs, attributed to the Brelvis. So by calling the group outside Islam, you condemn millions.

Its low because it shows you cannot deal with the issues being discussed,if you had a problem you should have sought to refute it yourself.

It’s low to YOU because you were caught out and seem to be upset about the matter. That’s your problem and doesn’t make me low in the slightest. I followed the rules, rules that you are oblivious to.

How do you define whether a group is Mulsim or not?

Again more spelling mistakes, you are trying, ever so hard to give me a lesson on comprehension, which you so desperately need and here spell Muslim wrong. I wouldn’t bring this up, hadn’t it been for you post above. As for whether a group is Muslim or not
This is a long post and for another topic.

.

OK so you do consider this practice of making dua to the person in the grave as being shirk correct?

I believe it to be incorrect, yes.

Farraz Rabbani doesn't have a problem with people calling upon those in the graves,it seems you do.So your position contradicts that of Rabbanis. I will deal with Rabbani's erroneous fatawa once you have clarified your position. I would also advise everyone not to rely on the likes of Farraz Rabbani for Islamic knowledge, he has sought to justify clear and open shirk in this fatawa.

He doesn’t say that at all, read the fatwa…Oh, so the fatwa is erroneous? What qualifies you to say that? He is a respected scholar of Islam, with the fatwa itself, verified [by other respected scholars] before it is bought to public attention.Please feel free to tell us about the years you have spent studying the deen and under which scholars and showing their lineage, in terms of the scholars they studied under.

I would advise people to take the advice of ulemah, who have studied for years under the tutelage of great Sheikhs themselves.

Seeing as now you are now stepping into territory I deem dangerous, i.e. trashing the verdicts of respected scholars. I will not pursue this discussion anymore.

Yes I made a mistake I am not perfect and I've (that means I have) never claimed to be, but it's clear from my posts that I did spell the word individual correctly before that, and that was just a typo and it wasn't because I didn't know the correct spelling.

I found more “typos” in your post.

 

[Conscientious objector]

You are going around in circles now and what I said to you was clear. I asked you for clarification, but yet you bring in all sorts of irrelevant discussion.

Maybe to you its irrelevant to make accusations, but for me it is not, Now point out where I said the things you accused me of. I note that you have failed yet again to produce the alleged statements.

No it’s not, you declared many out of the fold of Islam, as opposed to an individual. Read your own words again. Those millions who declare themselves Brelvis are out of Islam, according to you. Yes there is a course of events that have to be carried out to declare someone out of the fold of Islam. One wonders if such procedures are in place for one individual, how you can call an entire people out of Islam is incredible!

I've already explained this.

How can Shirk and Iman exist in the same heart? By saying that, you are excommunicating someone… Do you even know the gravity of the word you throw around like some loose change?

I'm well aware of the implications of takfeer.

You didn’t put the abbreviation in lol……I’m glad you finally corrected your sentence.

I didn't put the abbreviation in? Huh ? You mean the apostrophe I didn't put the apostrophe in. OH yes you've really shot yourself in the foot Lol .

You just called an apostrophe abbreviation, that means you don't know the meaning of the word

Do you actually read your sentences? Yes I know what a “matter of fact” means

No actually I think you didn't know what it meant, you only realised after I showed you it from the dictionary.

but have a look at your own sentence

OK Mr English teacher.Lets do that.

Matter-of-fact, is how you should have put it and given the “way” a miss.

You said you couldn't understand what I meant, now your suggesting that because I didn't add an APOSTROPHE and two little dashes you couldn't understand the sentence.So a couple of punctuation marks prevented you from understanding a sentence wow

Yes I know what a “matter of fact” means

^^^^^
So why haven't you added two little dashes here if as you claim it needs to be written with the dash markings?

I have a suggestion for you, how about this?
If you have any issues with what I’ve said, point them out in a matter-of-fact way, so that we can discuss them.

^^^
Why haven't you given the "way" a miss above in your suggestion?

As opposed to your own sentence, that lacked basic punctuation.

O.K Mr. English teacher I will make sure to dot my I's and cross my T's, and oh yes and to use APOSTROPHES

If you have any issues with what Ive said point them out in a matter of fact way so that we can discuss them.

Yes a couple of missing punctuation marks hilarious, haha.

Hilarious to say the least…Take a look at your own sentence above and then tell me who needs to learn comprehension.

It seems you still don't know what the word comprehension means, I told you even if the sentence was unintelligible (which it wasn't) my problem wouldn't be one of a lack of comprehension.You should learn to use the proper words in the proper tplaces Mr. English teacher.

Most of the Brelvis hold similar core beliefs. The key word here is “beliefs”, as you stated. It is very unlikely that an individual, who calls him or herself Brelvi, would not follow these “beliefs”.

On the contrary a lot of those who would refer to themselves as Barelvi would be unaware of the beliefs of the sect,like many Muslims they would be upon the pure fitrah and not have corrupt beliefs.

Like you said, it is not one thing we are talking about but several beliefs. Someone will simply not be a “brelvi” or call themselves such of they do not follow several beliefs, attributed to the Brelvis.

Call themselves such of they do not follow Correct your sentence before I address it Mr English teacher.

So by calling the group outside Islam, you condemn millions.

Wrong for the reasons I have already explained.

Again more spelling mistakes, you are trying, ever so hard to give me a lesson on comprehension, which you so desperately need and here spell Muslim wrong. I wouldn’t bring this up, hadn’t it been for you post above. As for whether a group is Muslim or not
This is a long post and for another topic.

.
Lol Mr English teacher you don't make any spelling mistakes do you?

I believe it to be incorrect, yes.

Do you accept it to be shirk?

He doesn’t say that at all, read the fatwa…Oh, so the fatwa is erroneous? What qualifies you to say that? He is a respected scholar of Islam, with the fatwa itself, verified [by other respected scholars] before it is bought to public attention.Please feel free to tell us about the years you have spent studying the deen and under which scholars and showing their lineage, in terms of the scholars they studied under.

O.K this is the fatawa where he states it is permissible. Now you have said its incorrect, so your belief contradicts that of this rabbani character.

I would advise people to take the advice of ulemah, who have studied for years under the tutelage of great Sheikhs themselves.

Seeing as now you are now stepping into territory I deem dangerous, i.e. trashing the verdicts of respected scholars. I will not pursue this discussion anymore.

I can show you many many fatawa from many many scholars, scholars that rabbani cannot come close to, great scholars from the past and present who all declare such a practice to be Shirk.

I found more “typos” in your post.

Its funny how you find my typos but not your own.

 

[waz]

Maybe to you its irrelevant to make accusations, but for me it is not, Now point out where I said the things you accused me of. I note that you have failed yet again to produce the alleged statements.

It is irrelevant and I have said what I wanted to on this subject.

I've already explained this.

No you didn’t, you just played with your words.

I'm well aware of the implications of takfeer.

You are not aware in the slightest, otherwise you wouldn’t have wrote the posts you did.

I didn't put the abbreviation in? Huh ? You mean the apostrophe I didn't put the apostrophe in. OH yes you've really shot yourself in the foot Lol

You just called an apostrophe abbreviation, that means you don't know the meaning of the word

Where does it say abbreviation? Take a look above lol, the laugh is on you. I didn’t edit it either, after you told me, but realised my mistake straight away, last night, that I had put in something from another post. Unlike yourself whose posts are riddled with spelling errors, bad punctuation and sentences that don’t make sense. The funny thing is that you actually defend it.

No actually I think you didn't know what it meant, you only realised after I showed you it from the dictionary.

Yes I did and your sentence didn’t make sense, that’s why I bought it up. The funny thing is when you decided to address it; you left the word “way” out, trying to mask your error lol!

OK Mr English teacher.Lets do that.

If you want to learn from me, you are free to do so.

You said you couldn't understand what I meant, now your suggesting that because I didn't add an APOSTROPHE and two little dashes you couldn't understand the sentence.So a couple of punctuation marks prevented you from understanding a sentence wow

So let me get this right, after initially getting upset about me not wanting to engage you in debate, now you want to debate with your posts full of errors? You have got to be kidding me. If you can’t be bothered to even proof read your posts, expect people to get annoyed.

^^^^^
So why haven't you added two little dashes here if as you claim it needs to be written with the dash markings?

It was left for your benefit, as you simply couldn’t understand your sentence was wrong. I put both your sentence and the corrected version up.

^^^
Why haven't you given the "way" a miss above in your suggestion?

It was left for your benefit, as you simply couldn’t understand your sentence was wrong.

I also showed you the correctly punctuated sentence and left the “way” in before you denied you wrote that.

O.K Mr. English teacher I will make sure to dot my I's and cross my T's, and oh yes and to use APOSTROPHES

Good to see you learning.

Yes a couple of missing punctuation marks hilarious, haha.

No it is not just that, your spelling is atrocious and your sentences don’t make sense.

It seems you still don't know what the word comprehension means, I told you even if the sentence was unintelligible (which it wasn't) my problem wouldn't be one of a lack of comprehension.You should learn to use the proper words in the proper tplaces Mr. English teacher.

See this is what I mean! Instead of not acknowledging your mistakes and trying ever so hard in comebacks, please look at what you wrote. What on earth is “tplaces”, you have written this right? I just want to get that straight before you get confused on where you went wrong. So “tplaces” must be an example of your wonderful comprehension and using words [tplaces is not a word] in the right places lol!!!!!!

On the contrary a lot of those who would refer to themselves as Barelvi would be unaware of the beliefs of the sect,like many Muslims they would be upon the pure fitrah and not have corrupt beliefs.

No that is not the case.

Call themselves such of they do not follow Correct your sentence before I address it Mr English teacher.

Now that is a typo, pretty easy mistake, the letter I, is next to the letter O on the keyboard. Hitting that by mistake at nearly 2 in the morning is acceptable. Apart from that, find me anything else; you wouldn’t be able to, unlike your writing, including this post, where I have come across many mistakes.

Wrong for the reasons I have already explained.

No it is not.

Lol Mr English teacher you don't make any spelling mistakes do you?

Find me them. No I don’t, apart from the one typo I made in my many posts to you, that is it.

Do you accept it to be shirk?

I don’t throw that word around and I gave you the reason above. Do I believe it to be wrong, yes.

O.K this is the fatawa where he states it is permissible. Now you have said its incorrect, so your belief contradicts that of this rabbani character.

No, again you have no understanding of the fatwah. “Calling on others than Allah”, he refers to the living and the correct forms of wasilah, which he has clarified in the fatwa I gave you above.

I can show you many many fatawa from many many scholars, scholars that rabbani cannot come close to, great scholars from the past and present who all declare such a practice to be Shirk.

Don’t you mean many, many fatwa? See your English teacher looking out for you again.

As for the verdicts by all means, do so, I hope they make reference to the scholars from the pious predecessors and don’t just date back several hundred years.

Its funny how you find my typos but not your own.

Oh here we go again, you should have written “it’s”. See your wonderful English teacher is always on the ball. Oh and I have only made one typo, in my many posts to you.


To be honest I am through with this “debate”. The posts are slowly becoming one liners and I feel I have said what I wanted to. I never posted to change your opinion, I can’t. The posts are here for the neutral people on the forum. I would like to have the links to the Fatwas though, you can PM me them.

 

[seekers]

shirk shirk, bidah, bidah, haram, haram! these are the words that we use to hear at Mecca and Madina.

I have few questions with these slogans sect.

1.Why you worship Khana Kaba,where nobody ever saw ALLAH,never have been so far Allah come inside Kaba.

2. Why you kiss a "Hajer Aswad", even this is just stone in your eyes.

3. Why you pray compulsory two rakat behind the Foot sign of Hazrat Ibraheim (A.S).

4. Why you cast stone over shitan on just three pillars.

5. Why Allah order to Angels to do Sajdah to Adam,even you think this is haram.wheres Allah had punished iblees to not do the act which you think haram.Moreover Allah had declared iblees a part of hell without any excuse, can you justify???

In Surrah Ibraheim "Iblees would say to the people of hell don't blame me, blame your nafs which you have worshiped in dunya and do shirk"