The growing agitation of Pakistanis against USA

[haviZsultan]

1) Nuke deal with India but refused to Pakistan
..Show me $2-3 billion cash, like India and China did, and you will have the plant.If you want one for free and without signing NPT, then it ain't happening.

I dealt with this already. Show me where India signed the NPT itself? It didn't. Exactly. But the deal is still being signed with them.

US has no nuke deal with China. Its an attempt to encircle them. Pakistan does have a nuke deal with them though. It is time to shift policy in favor of China.

2) Davis kills 2 Pakistanis and escapes. There is no proof of Afia being a terrorist and still in jail and will be there forever.
..Diplomatic staff is always let go. He was clearly working for the US consulate Lahore..

This doesn't make it right.

3) Fazlullah hiding in Kunar. Faqir Mohammed's (Ex-Bajaur Chief's) bases in Afghanistan.
..We need to send in SSG and few F-16 + cobras and take out that SOB. No need to cry like a little baby.Even a tiny Israel can take out its enemies, why you insist we behave like Eunuchs?

That is absolutely right. Why haven't we done it? Because the NATO forces may try and shoot us down. Better to send a few ISI agents and poison him or kill him and other commanders in a clandestine way. However my issue is which single top level commander have we ever managed to kill in this war? Are we the least bit successful in this war?

4) US refusal to condemn India for the Siachen incursion but raising an outcry on the Kargil one which was made by fauji's after the Siachen debacle when they took 1000 miles of our land.
..Valid point. But do remember, our marde-momin Zial Huq himself was non-chalant that Sichain is not a big deal, Ghas ka tinka nahin ugta wahan par (even a blade of grass doesn't grow there). Show me where we the Paks raised voice in UN about Siachin when India invaded it? And why Pak government treated this as a non-issue?.


Kargil issue became hot because India was ready to go full scale war against us. They used every weapon in their arsenal to dislodge our guys from there. Few more days and there could have been a war. This is what prompted everyone in the world including China to take note.

Had we threatened a full scale war on Siachin, the world back then would have take a note too.

Finally somewhere we agree. But then again US became frenzied over Kargil. India didn't ask for UN help during Kargil, it came automatically when they threatened war. But this is partly our issue. You are right but I don't understand how anyone can not see in all these places that the US policy almost ever since my birth has inherently favored India.

Don't complain now that "chiryan chug gain khait" When the water is already under the bridge

No reason our government shouldn't bring this up again especially considering US supported Zia, no one else. It is a fact you forget and it is a mistake. When that ugly terrorist Zia joined the Americans then and was promoting terror across the nation I don't remember you guys raising even a voice and neither are you doing it now. Our foreign policy is a mess.

I am not advocated war with the US. I am advocating that we take our interests very, very seriously now. Our foreign policy has been glued to the US since 60's and it closes every other door on us. We have to look at other options in light of these facts.

5) USA's offer to sell better quality F16's to India compared to what they sold us.

..France sold better latest mirages to India as well. What's new in the arms deals among countries? India was paying cash, and every company in the world was lining up to sell stuff. Quit moaning and start working to make cash for Pak. Then we too will have a say..

You believe our country is somehow fund starved. We have a military budget large enough to buy F-16's. But US was an ally. Wasn't it its responsibility to provide us with better weapons first than India. You do not see anything as a problem do you? I support a secular system but I will never forget that these same guys once supported terrorists in Afghanistan and got away with it. Russia was much more tolerant all the time and education was must among the Soviets.

Also you keep mocking Pakistan as fund starved. You forget to mention Pakistan suffered $80 billion of losses in war on terror and failed to get a single top commander in return while gaining a measly 10 billion in aid. We need a new strategy. Anyone can tell when the sky turns red and meteors start to fall that we are in deep ****. I believe a change in policy is really needed.

6) Framing of Pakistani innocents in the name of terrorism-Seen it, researched it.

..Millions of Paks live and prosper in USA. If 5-10 were caught and prosecuted as US citizens and residents, then why would you cry about them?.

7) Maltreatment of Pakistanis in airports and hounding of Pakistani political Organizations in north America. Even secular ones. Yes-this is the only thing they are good at.

..Again millions of Pakistanis go in and out of America. Few of them are questioned, but 99% of them pass through like the rest of the world travelers. Fix your attitude, don't act like a criminal and the world will treat you nicely.

I do not know what I can say. Will presenting the case of Shukrijumah who we believe is being framed on false charges work? This is something that should be brought up by the Pakistani government. You do not understand that subservience makes you weak and limits your foreign policy.

8) Support for dictators in Pakistani land. 3 major ones had their backing. Zia was the one who Islamicized Pakistan with their blessing in case you did not notice.

. We put dicatators up, the world (and not just USA) will work with them, we put politicians up and the world will work with them. Not sure why you repeat lowly conspiracy theories about a straightforward issue.

Now for a country that considers itself democratic why didn't they convince these dictators to abdicate in favor of civilian rule. This is insane. Which country do you belong to?

9) Presler Amendment. When we were not needed by USA anymore. Cold war over, Afghanistan in ruins but of course the Soviets disgraced as they wanted that is what came. Military and economic cooperation CUT and mark my words IT WILL HAPPEN AGAIN-200% chance and I bet on my life when this war on terror is over this will come again. They will harass us even more than they are now.

. We were making the bomb. Weren't we? Be honest about yourself first then complain about others.

That was one of my points. Why did US not press sanctions on India then which conducted its first test the Smiling Buddha much earlier than that. This isn't making any sense. You idolize the USA when it is bombing your people. This is policy.

10) The blame Pakistan suffers on a daily basis. Pakistan is held responsible for every failure. I believe you think we are responsible. Partly I agree, yes. But you do not know about the successes, Ramzir yousuf, Baradar, Khalid Sheikh (top 9/11 terrorist) were all capture by us.

..NY Times will print anti-Pak stories and so will Washington post. They are lefties they have to write against everyone that resulted in the down fall of commie jannat Soviet Union. Read the source and its political inclination before crying hoarse. .

Sahab jee... Mike Mullen, Panetta even McCain all have made anti-Pakistani statements that are callous and blame Pakistan. Here is a link. You have no links to support your stance.

US blames ISI for Kabul attack, Senate aims to restrict aid | Pakistan Today | Latest news | Breaking news | Pakistan News | World news | Business | Sport and Multimedia

There is nothing that can happen in the world today without a Pakistani being framed for it in the end or the ISI being blamed. I don't know what makes it difficult for you to see this. Panetta said this:

Defence Secretary Leon Panetta warned Pakistan on Thursday that the United States is losing patience for its refusal to eliminate safe havens for insurgents who attack US troops in neighbouring Afghanistan.

Mike Mullen this:

"The ISI has been doing this - working for - supporting proxies for an extended period of time. It is a strategy in the country and I think that strategic approach has to shift in the future."

We are going to be abandoned in the end when the US withdraws. You can mark my words here and remember them later. Presler amendment and more will come later. We will take the fall for the failure of this war despite taking a part in it. Please understand these simple facts. We are destroying our foreign policy by not being assertive.

Korea, Japan, Malaysia, Taiwan all developed because they were assertive and maintained a strong foreign policy which guarded their interests. We are the only people who forsake our interests for a relationship with the USA.

11) Pakistan counting on US support and not getting any in 1971. Weak point? Leave that then. I think it is too. But consider the rest.

.If our mission in UN was tearing apart resolutions, and if our own army was not ready to make the deal, why to blame others? Our leadership including Yahya were happy to rid of BDesh. Show me where Pak army asked US to help evacuate our soldiers? And what was possible source to get 90,000 civilians and soldiers out?

The way it looked and how it was on the ground that Pakistan had lost control even on the Western front. Read What were the fears of US admin about losing the West wing as well. Read Mr. Read first..

You are telling a person who has known nothing but a newspaper since he was 10 to read. It is a weak point. Leave it. The real blunder was ours. We can't blame US here.

12) Add to this the Indian nuclear test smiling Buddha in 74 being ignored by the US while our military and economy being sanctioned.

.Not sure about 74, but in India was immediately sanctioned in the 98-99. Clinton begged Pak not to explode and offered tones of goodies. We refused. So don't come here and cry..

Sanctions were removed in 99 while the continued on Pakistan till 2001. Thats how you treat an ally who had supported you against the Soviets once? Man are you an American citizen or a Pakistani one. What sources do you read?

13) Add to this the framing of Kashmiri activist Syed Ghulam Nabi Fai in a false case as an ISI agent in another attempt to malign ISI

..low level operatives get sanctioned. Fai should have followed all the rules. You cross a red light once and don't get a ticket. That doesn't mean you won't be ticketed on your 2nd or 3rd or 4th offense.

What proof exists. The Kashmiri community has vociferously rejected the findings of the CIA. Also if so then why cry about Shakeel Afridi. There is a differential treatment and it is as clear as the 4 suns of foundation.

This is obviously a littany of accusations with no study of the historical facts. But I know this list is very popular among Islamists and communists in Pakistan.

peace

I would advise you to stick to the American flag and not the Pakistani one if you do not care about this country. I am a secularist. The communists were better than the Americans anyway. But I am not a supporter of them. Stop with the allegations. Wikileaks revealed they have a mole on every Pakistani cite and are doling out billions to fight the propaganda war. I could argue you are a CIA agent. Stop this childish ranting and raving and rather have a debate.

The historical fact is that after the Afghan-Soviet war when we were unneeded we were thrown away. Sanctions were imposed on us. US did not support us on the Siachen conflict while demanding us to withdraw from Kargil which was a response to it. This is what happens when a country is unneeded. You can mark my words it will happen again once the US withdraws. We can develop a counter-policy or we can choose to live in denial all we want.

I favour secular ideals and wished they could promote these. But they don't care about us. Muslim Khan lived for 13-15 years there and they never thought of arresting him just because he was more likely to kill Pakistanis. And he did, there are stories of him shooting disarmed policemen in cold blood.

Even I can see this as can anyone. You are not reading what is coming in the future my friend and I cannot tell you how unfortunate you are because when the US abandons us the military deals we have will be stuck, USAID operations will end... all this will end sometime. I can guarantee it. We can choose to make a real foreign policy now or keep suffering. and lets look the fact in the eye that we have had little to no success in the war on terror. For me its time to give Imran Khan's solution a try (without any deal with TTP though) on which sources tell me he has reneged. US should be a neutral nation in our eyes... not an ideological forefather.

Not a single thank for that researched post and so many for his. Its amazing where we are. I saw things in Canada Faujhistorian sahab, there is no reason to idolize the Americans.

 

[FaujHistorian]

......

US has no nuke deal with China. Its an attempt to encircle them. .......

Not a single thank for that researched post and so many for his. Its amazing where we are. I saw things in Canada Faujhistorian sahab, there is no reason to idolize the Americans.

HaviZ bhai, my dear dear deer Think Tank, Please do your homework.

A think tank is not supposed to spread false info or rumors.

OK. I didn't want to spoon feed you. But you insist.

Here is the latest.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Westinghouse marks opening of China plant - Pittsburgh Business Times
Jun 8, 2012, 10:47am EDT
Westinghouse marks opening of China plant

This deal was signed back in 2007

Here is the link

Westinghouse signs nuclear plant deal with China - Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

Westinghouse signs nuclear plant deal with China
July 24, 2007

By Joe McDonald / The Associated Press
BEIJING -- Westinghouse Electric Co. signed deals today to build four nuclear power plants in China and to transfer technology for its newest reactor to a Chinese partner, a cost of gaining a foothold in the country's fast-growing industry.


----------------------------------------------------------------------



FYI India doesn't have same level of HUGE cash like China, so the India-US "deal" is a kiddy thing, while China-US deal is already commissioned and installed and many many more to come.


Please take off the anti-US hate glasses (I guess these must have red lenses ) and see the world. It will be a lot more real than what it seems to be at the moment.


Pakistani socialists and Islamists love to talk about "China encirclement" and how they will have orgasms while helping China break this so called encirclement.

In the meanwhile Chinese American trade and other deals go over trillion dollars after trillion after trillion.


at the same time, Pakistanis socialists continue dragging our beautiful country down the pit of poverty, hate, foolishness Ayatullah style.


peace

 

[haviZsultan]

HaviZ bhai, my dear dear deer Think Tank, Please do your homework.

A think tank is not supposed to spread false info or rumors.

OK. I didn't want to spoon feed you. But you insist.

Here is the latest.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Westinghouse marks opening of China plant - Pittsburgh Business Times
Jun 8, 2012, 10:47am EDT
Westinghouse marks opening of China plant

This deal was signed back in 2007

Here is the link

Westinghouse signs nuclear plant deal with China - Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

Westinghouse signs nuclear plant deal with China
July 24, 2007

By Joe McDonald / The Associated Press
BEIJING -- Westinghouse Electric Co. signed deals today to build four nuclear power plants in China and to transfer technology for its newest reactor to a Chinese partner, a cost of gaining a foothold in the country's fast-growing industry.

Are you for real? This is not a nuclear deal between China and US. It is not between governments. With this comment you have proven you are like a baby who has lived in US too long to recognize which nation he belongs to. I have had the misfortune of meeting many like you and the fortune of destroying them in debate. None of them admit a single thing wrong with the US despite the terrorist behavior it displays worldwide with its 700+ military bases and colonial ambitions.

This is not a nuclear deal. I searched for 10 minutes for any information about a nuclear deal between the two governments but found nothing the last time to respond to your post-meaning you wasted 10 minutes of my valuable time with Pro-American rubbish. This is an private electricity company's power project which is investing in a nuclear nuclear power plant. Even the Kanupp 1 which we possess has been producing 137 MV was set up by the Canadian government through a company. USAID affiliated groups have a 300 MW reactor in Karachi-dunno if its nuclear powered though.

You don't know the difference between an official nuclear pact/deal and one between a minor deal between a company. Even for 3.6% which is Pakistan's nuclear energy share most of it is developed by a mix of local and foreign corporations. Is their an official US-China nuclear deal. None at all. You have been beaten in this debate.

America is not a God. It is a nation.


----------------------------------------------------------------------

FYI India doesn't have same level of HUGE cash like China, so the India-US "deal" is a kiddy thing, while China-US deal is already commissioned and installed and many many more to come.

Who made you think tank? You are concerned so much about money the US could just bribe you to talk rubbish. Are you the next Shakil Afridi? Countries usually tend to pay in installments or through a time period. There are many ways to bash through budget constraint issues. Its a cannard and Pakistan has repeatedly shown willingness for a US-Pakistan nuclear deal. It was refused to us but not to India. Use your brain-it doesn't have CIA microchips installed in it.

Please take off the anti-US hate glasses (I guess these must have red lenses ) and see the world. It will be a lot more real than what it seems to be at the moment.

Personally I want the relationship with them to work but I want my country on equal standing with them-not a relationship of slave to master. And this is getting very annoying. I am very emotional and you shouldn't provoke people unnecessarily.

Pakistani socialists and Islamists love to talk about "China encirclement" and how they will have orgasms while helping China break this so called encirclement.

In the meanwhile Chinese American trade and other deals go over trillion dollars after trillion after trillion.

Westhouse electricity co has nothing to do with the government of USA. It is an LLC standing for local limited company. The deal is kept low key and if the government knows they may stop it like they did this:

Obama blocks Chinese wind farms in Oregon over security | Reuters

Or if it was Pakistan's case. This is what they do to companies trying to have nuclear treatises. By law Pakistan is not allowed to import (nor China) for that matter a lot of sensitive components:

US fines Chinese firm for re-sales to Pakistan nuclear plant – The Express Tribune

at the same time, Pakistanis socialists continue dragging our beautiful country down the pit of poverty, hate, foolishness Ayatullah style.

Please shut up-you could be a TTP suicide bomber in disguise or a CIA agent. You can't make a post without insult how did you become think tank?

Raising the question of our rights in this relationship is not wrong and there is no reason that only a relationship with the US can be beneficial to our nation. South Korea, Japan, India (learn about the captured Italian soldier) all have become more assertive and with assertiveness comes economic power not with slavery. A subservient nation serving the interests of foreigners while cursing its own under its muck filled boots cannot progress. We need to find a policy that suits us. But the first hurdle in this regard is you who don't recognize a problem and sit in shiny offices all day deciding the countries policy on behalf of the rest. By the way PEW global polls revealed another survey:

Now think of this. 74% of all Pakistanis think of US as an enemy. Now any nation thinks about local sentiment before it makes decisions but we never thought of local feelings. How are we ever going to win this war without understanding our interests and advocating them. Imran Khan is right-we are seen as slaves and its because of people like you. Go to Sultanwas in Buner some day and see how each building has been destroyed in the fight while we have nothing to show for it. Not a single commander. You think doing US bidding is worthwhile do it. You have been all the time but it is suicide and US will stop aid and mistreat us. It is already happening post bin-laden raid and a lot of aid has been cut already.

Also thanks for ignoring the inconvenient questions posed in the rest of the post. I understand a US backer can only do US chamchagiri so much-then he tires being a paid e-warrior.

 

[FaujHistorian]

Are you for real? This is not a nuclear deal between China and US. It is not between governments. .....

Obviously there is an issue of reading comprehension here.

No nuclear deal ever is approved or signed without explicit clearance from the respective government.

USA gov/congress cleared the deal. Only then American companies started working with China's state owned companies.

Please accept the facts on the ground that

USA companies are selling many many plants to China (four only in the link I provided).

India probably will get one.

I am sorry to see that you are obsessed with India to a point that you refused to accept the obvious.

What can I say.

Praying for your health and well being.


peace

 

[haviZsultan]

Obviously there is an issue of reading comprehension here.

No nuclear deal ever is approved or signed without explicit clearance from the respective government.

USA gov/congress cleared the deal. Only then American companies started working with China's state owned companies.

Please accept the facts on the ground that

USA companies are selling many many plants to China (four only in the link I provided).

India probably will get one.

I am sorry to see that you are obsessed with India to a point that you refused to accept the obvious.

What can I say.

Praying for your health and well being.


peace

It is not a nuclear deal. There is no statement of cooperation between the two governments. Do not waste my time if your only intention is to ensure not one thing is said about US. You seriously have to decide where your loyalties lie.

Furthermore all you have done is beat around the bush and declare the US innocent on every count which even Phil gasper and a number of Americans I myself have met have not done. They have admitted the mistakes their society has committed. A woman even helped me with my articles. Generally Americans realize the mistakes they have made and a good leadership can or may change that. But Pakistan must find itself a proper foreign policy in the meantime.

 

[FaujHistorian]

It is not a nuclear deal. There is no statement of cooperation between the two governments......

So the Westinghouse is installing gobar gas plants in China?

Something is seriously wrong with your reading comprehension Sir.

Westinghouse marks opening of China[Nuclear] plant - Pittsburgh Business Times
Jun 8, 2012, 10:47am EDT
Westinghouse marks opening of China plant

This deal was signed back in 2007

Here is the link

Westinghouse signs nuclear plant deal with China - Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

Westinghouse signs nuclear plant deal with China
July 24, 2007





sorry to say we need muse and krait to come and sort this out. Until then I am out of this back and forth. it is like debate with Zarvan (really sorry to say)


peace

 

[Vassnti]

What i would love to see and have yet failed to find or be shown is an accurate independant breakdown of the so called 80billion. The claim keeps being repeated and each time it creeps up a little.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

@haviZsultan: Thanks for inviting me to this thread.

As for my opinion, I believe that Pakistan should cooperate economically with both China and America, given that China and America are cooperating with each other to the tune of hundreds of billions every year. And Pakistan should generally have friendly relations with both.

However, in terms of "security", I think that Pakistan should go on its own, and NOT fight on behalf of either China or America.

Fighting should be done on behalf of yourself, your family and your country. Not for the interests of other countries.

 

[haviZsultan]

So the Westinghouse is installing gobar gas plants in China?

Something is seriously wrong with your reading comprehension Sir.

Westinghouse marks opening of China[Nuclear] plant - Pittsburgh Business Times
Jun 8, 2012, 10:47am EDT
Westinghouse marks opening of China plant

This deal was signed back in 2007

Here is the link

Westinghouse signs nuclear plant deal with China - Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

Westinghouse signs nuclear plant deal with China
July 24, 2007

sorry to say we need muse and krait to come and sort this out. Until then I am out of this back and forth. it is like debate with Zarvan (really sorry to say)

peace

About the US-India agreement:

The framework for this agreement was a July 18, 2005, joint statement by Indian Prime Minister Dr. Manmohan Singh and then U.S. President George W. Bush, under which India agreed to separate its civil and military nuclear facilities and to place all its civil nuclear facilities under International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) safeguards and, in exchange, the United States agreed to work toward full civil nuclear cooperation with India.

The agreement was signed by then Indian External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee and his counterpart then Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, on October 10

Do you understand the difference between government and a company making a minor plant? This was a huge deal between 2 governments. Manmohan Singh and Bush stood together and announced the deal. It was not similar on US and China deal. It was not a government deal. It was a private company investing.

That company known as Westinghouse is an LLC. Limited Liability Company is a private, not government run company. LLC is private, PLC is government. You are the one not comprehending simple facts. Furthermore you are stuck on the nuke deal when I mentioned 12 points. Russia always stood with India, our ally didn't and that's what happens when you accept cheap allies.

This would be an interesting read too:

AFP: India energised by nuclear pacts

Indias diversion of nuclear technology in 1974:

The crux of the matter here was that, after India surreptitiously diverted uranium produced at a Canadian plant to its first nuclear bomb in 1974, Ottawa wanted to be able to closely monitor the stuff this time around.

They exploded a bomb in 74 and US turned a blind eye but in 98 when Pakistan does the same in response to them they didn't. Amazing! Stop this childish defense of US policy and accept mistakes that may push us over the brink to breaking this alliance. PTI is coming anyway. It will ensure our interests are maintained over those of others. Nationalism, honor, victory.

 

[haviZsultan]

@haviZsultan: Thanks for inviting me to this thread.

As for my opinion, I believe that Pakistan should cooperate economically with both China and America, given that China and America are cooperating with each other to the tune of hundreds of billions every year. And Pakistan should generally have friendly relations with both.

However, in terms of "security", I think that Pakistan should go on its own, and NOT fight on behalf of either China or America.

Fighting should be done on behalf of yourself, your family and your country. Not for the interests of other countries.

My views on this matter are summed up here and personally as I would like it I would want a stronger relationship with China because of historical support we have received in each and every field. 80% of our nuclear reactors rely on help from China.

1) Nuke deal with India but refused to Pakistan
2) Davis kills 2 Pakistanis and escapes. There is no proof of Afia being a terrorist and still in jail and will be there forever.
3) Fazlullah hiding in Kunar. Faqir Mohammed's (Ex-Bajaur Chief's) bases in Afghanistan.
4) US refusal to condemn India for the Siachen incursion but raising an outcry on the Kargil one which was made by fauji's after the Siachen debacle when they took 1000 miles of our land.
5) USA's offer to sell better quality F16's to India compared to what they sold us.
6) Framing of Pakistani innocents in the name of terrorism-Seen it, researched it.
7) Maltreatment of Pakistanis in airports and hounding of Pakistani political Organizations in north America. Even secular ones. Yes-this is the only thing they are good at.
8) Support for dictators in Pakistani land. 3 major ones had their backing. Zia was the one who Islamicized Pakistan with their blessing in case you did not notice.
9) Presler Amendment. When we were not needed by USA anymore. Cold war over, Afghanistan in ruins but of course the Soviets disgraced as they wanted that is what came. Military and economic cooperation CUT and mark my words IT WILL HAPPEN AGAIN-200% chance and I bet on my life when this war on terror is over this will come again. They will harass us even more than they are now.
10) The blame Pakistan suffers on a daily basis. Pakistan is held responsible for every failure. I believe you think we are responsible. Partly I agree, yes. But you do not know about the successes, Ramzir yousuf, Baradar, Khalid Sheikh (top 9/11 terrorist) were all capture by us.
11) Pakistan counting on US support and not getting any in 1971. Weak point? Leave that then. I think it is too. But consider the rest.
12) Add to this the Indian nuclear test smiling Buddha in 74 being ignored by the US while our military and economy being sanctioned.
13) Add to this the framing of Kashmiri activist Syed Ghulam Nabi Fai in a false case as an ISI agent in another attempt to malign ISI

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...ion-pakistanis-against-usa.html#ixzz2JEZWgqZZ

Personally I wanted you to comment but wanted most particularly to know your views on the Indo-US nuclear deal. Was it an attempt to encircle China?

What are your views on the India-US nuclear agreement. Do you believe this article?

China Responds to the U.S.-India Nuclear Deal

China’s opposition to the landmark U.S.-India nuclear deal finalized during President Bush’s New Delhi visit in March 2006 has now emerged as a new source of tension in India-China relations. Just as it did last year to effectively sabotage India’s bid for a permanent seat in the UN Security Council, China has now launched a diplomatic offensive to block any changes in the Nuclear Suppliers’ Group (NSG) guidelines to accommodate India in the field of dual-use technology. Significantly, the Chinese opposition to the nuclear pact is in contrast to the support for the deal from Russia, France, Australia, Britain, Canada and the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA).



Arguing that “the U.S.-India nuclear deal would destroy nonproliferation efforts,” China wants India to dismantle its nuclear weapons and sign the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty (NPT) as a Non-Nuclear Weapon State (Xinhua, March 4; Reuters, March 3). Beijing’s stance emboldens the opponents of the deal in the U.S. Congress where it faces strong domestic resistance. Beijing has also sharply rebuked Washington’s attempts to have the NSG guidelines amended to facilitate nuclear energy cooperation with India, and pressured Australia to maintain its embargo on uranium sales to India. Clearly, China would not countenance any challenge to its status as the sole Asian Nuclear Weapon State (as per the NPT) and as the sole Asian permanent member of the UN Security Council, nor would it sit idle in the event of a threat to its preeminence in the Asia-Pacific region.



Chinese Fury



Reacting to the deal, Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Qin Gang stressed that U.S.-Indian nuclear cooperation must conform to the rules of the global nonproliferation regime. Qin added that current international safeguards on nuclear weapons were the hard-won product of many countries’ efforts and should not be weakened by exceptions (Xinhua, March 3). This point was later emphasized in a China Daily (March 7) opinion piece:



“The United States’ making an exception to accommodate India, driven by geopolitical considerations, has sent repercussions through the international nonproliferation infrastructure. The double standards will very likely complicate the nuclear issues of Iran and the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea all the more…Now the international community is presented with a big question: How can the effectiveness and binding power of the nonproliferation system be guaranteed?”



The tone for both official Chinese reaction and critical media commentaries was set earlier by Renmin Ribao (October 26, 2005), which accused Washington of being soft on India and warned that if the US made a “nuclear exception” for India, other powers [i.e., China] would do the same with their friends [read Pakistan, Iran, Bangladesh, and Burma] and weaken the global nonproliferation regime: “Now that the United States buys another country in with nuclear technologies in defiance of an international treaty, other nuclear suppliers also have their own partners of interest as well as good reasons to copy what the United States did…A domino effect of nuclear proliferation, once turned into reality, will definitely lead to global nuclear proliferation and competition.”



Broadly speaking, the Chinese critique of the deal centers around three key themes: double standards; Washington’s containment of China by tilting toward India; and the possible unraveling of the nuclear nonproliferation regime.



Double Standards: Look who’s talking



It is ironic that China—a three-decade long opponent of the NPT and a major nuclear proliferator—is opposing the U.S.-India nuclear civilian energy deal by presenting itself as a great champion of nuclear nonproliferation. Beijing’s record of proliferation includes having helped in the development of Pakistan’s and North Korea’s nuclear weapons and ballistic missile programs. China was the last nuclear power to sign the NPT in 1992. Two years after joining the NPT, China transferred 5,000 ring magnets to Islamabad in 1994 to sustain the Pakistani centrifuge operations in a clear violation of the NPT. China is constructing two nuclear power reactors in Pakistan. China has also supplied equipment and materials to Iran for its nuclear and missile programs. Chinese bomb design drawings were recovered from Libya in 2003, and until today the Chinese have not made public the results of their “investigation” launched in February 2004 (China Brief, April 29, 2004).



Nor have the Chinese government and media ever been “worried” about the notorious “Nuclear Bazaar” run by the Pakistani scientist Dr. A.Q. Khan. Given Dr. Khan’s close links with and numerous visits to the Chinese nuclear establishment, it is also inconceivable that Chinese security agencies were unaware of Pakistan’s nuclear dealings with North Korea, Iran and Libya. Repeated sanctions imposed by the Bush administration against China’s state-run companies for engaging in proliferation activities even after Beijing was admitted into the NSG in 2004 indicate that China’s liaisons with would-be bomb-makers may have not ended completely. In sharp contrast with the China-Pakistan duo, India never proliferated nuclear weapons material or technology to any other state (despite multi-billion dollars offers from Libya, Iraq, and Taiwan).



Containment: Who’s containing whom?



Another major criticism of the deal is that Washington is seeking to contain China through India—even at the cost of undercutting nuclear nonproliferation. This criticism flies in the face of the reality of China’s own four-decade-old policy of building up Pakistan to contain India. China remains involved in upgrading Pakistan’s nuclear capabilities. News reports suggest that China and Pakistan are currently negotiating the purchase of 6 to 8 new Chinese nuclear power reactors. An article (International Studies, February 6, 2006) by Zhang Weiwei of the Chinese Foreign Ministry-affiliated China Institute of International Studies acknowledges that “Pakistan enjoys an edge over India in the nuclear sector”—a feat difficult for Islamabad to accomplish without Chinese inputs.



A week prior to President Bush’s India visit, Beijing hosted General Musharraf and concluded new deals on advanced conventional weaponry and nuclear power plants. This prompted Musharraf to boast at a press conference in Islamabad, which was repeatedly broadcast on Pakistani state media, that “they [India and the U.S.] should be ready for worse times coming...we have substitutes and they know why I went there [China] before his [Bush’s] visit.” More significantly, in a little-reported comment, Musharraf’s Information Minister, Sheikh Rashid Ahmad, told Chinese television (February 20, 2006) that “Pakistan will stand by China if the United States ever tries to ‘besiege’ it.” Interestingly, the day after Bush’s India visit, Beijing announced a 15 percent increase in its defense spending.



The fact that much of the talk about the containment of China originates from China itself, and not from the region or the U.S., can be attributed to 4 major reasons. The first is Beijing’s own Cold War experience during 1971-1989 when China aligned itself with the U.S. to contain the U.S.S.R. Beijing now suspects that India could play a similar American card against China. Second is to propagate the notion of China as a victim of great power machinations. This stance also helps the CCP legitimize its rule and garner domestic and international support. Third, it preempts any criticism of Chinese support for rogue regimes, human rights and intellectual property rights violations, excessive militarization, mercantilist trade practices, internet censorship and the like. Finally, it diverts attention from or deflects any criticism of China’s own containment of the U.S., Japan and India.



China is clearly uneasy about evolving U.S. ties with India and Japan. Despite protestations to the contrary from India and the United States that New Delhi is unwilling and unlikely to play the role of a closely aligned U.S. surrogate as Japan, China’s Asia strategy is based on the assumption that the U.S., Japan and India would eventually form an informal trilateral strategic alliance. Even as they increasingly cooperate in the economic sphere, Indian-Chinese military competition is a foregone conclusion.



Unraveling the Nonproliferation Regime: Who’s done it?



Thirdly, Beijing’s warnings about the potential unraveling of the nonproliferation regime lack credibility. China bears responsibility for undermining the regime because of its penchant for playing “the proliferation card” in its relations with major powers. It is worth recalling that China’s nuclear and missile proliferation activities in violation of its nonproliferation treaty commitments helped create the context in which India decided to unveil its nuclear weapons in 1998 and the U.S. opted for missile defense and eventually cut a deal to bring India into the nonproliferation fold. If anything, the U.S.-India deal would strengthen the nonproliferation regime by placing 14 out of 22 Indian nuclear reactors under the IAEA safeguards, thereby significantly reducing the quantity of weapons-grade fissile material from 80 percent to 35 percent.



Beijing’s contention that other nuclear aspirants such as Iran and North Korea would now feel emboldened is specious. There is little guarantee that they will give up their nuclear programs even if the U.S.-India deal is abandoned. Those who have abetted and supported two of the world’s most dangerous regimes (notably, the Soviet Union/Russia, China and Pakistan’s Dr. Khan) bear primary responsibility for the potential unraveling of the nonproliferation regime.



As in the past, China’s attitude toward the nonproliferation regime will determine its future. The Chinese might step up nuclear proliferation in India’s neighborhood (Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, and perhaps Bangladesh and Burma) to countervail the U.S.-India ties. Washington may as well forget about securing Beijing’s help to sanction Teheran if India is to be cut loose with the proposed nuclear deal. Yet before the U.S.-India deal tempts the hawkish PLA generals to undermine the nonproliferation regime, they should ponder whether its collapse is in China’s security interests as it might end in the nuclearization of Japan, Taiwan and even Vietnam.



Conclusions



China is breathing fire over the U.S.-India nuclear agreement that reverses decades of U.S. policy to allow India, once a nuclear pariah, access to civilian nuclear technology to meet its soaring energy needs. China is concerned over what it sees as a pro-India tilt in U.S. policy. Beijing seeks to either make India’s NSG membership conditional upon it signing the NPT as a Non-Nuclear Weapons State or block India’s entry without Pakistan also getting into the NSG. Beijing seeks to prevent India from breaking free of the nuclear chains because it fears that if India is let in into the exclusive Nuclear Club, it will soon be knocking on the doors of the exclusive UN Security Council P-5 Club as well, and this would significantly erode China’s regional leverage and global influence.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Personally I wanted you to comment but wanted most particularly to know your views on the Indo-US nuclear deal. Was it an attempt to encircle China?

What are your views on the India-US nuclear agreement. Do you believe this article?

I feel that every power is trying to encircle every other power. Like a game we have called "Go" (or Weiqi). It gets more intense when an established power is trying to encircle a rising new power, though the concept is the same.

The US has encircled us for ages now, especially in the Pacific. We fought the Korean War in order to stop America from having land access to us (by pushing American + UN military forces out of North Korea).

But in terms of geography, diplomacy, even economy, we are already encircled and have been since the founding of the PRC. But it doesn't stop us from growing stronger, in fact I would argue that it has been helping us by maintaining regional stability, at America's expense instead of ours.

 

[muse]

Friends:

Below is an article that appears in todays Tribune, I am reproducing it below and I strongly encourage you to read i, simply to understand the argument I am forwarding -- once again, just please read it and see my original posts -- some have tried to argue that we see to disengage or ditch the US, but this is misrepresentation, our position is that to have a better relationship with the US, Pakistan needs reform of it's economy and that requires a reform in the nature of politics:

Reform or counter revolution
By Dr Akmal Hussain
Published: January 27, 2013

The writer is Distinguished Professor of Economics at Forman Christian College University and Beaconhouse National University

On the question of deep-rooted change, whereby nations get onto a path of transforming their material conditions of life, the state of science in the New Institutional Economics has established two propositions: 1) the fundamental factor in the prosperity of nations is their ability to change from exclusive to inclusive institutions; 2) the ability to make economic institutions inclusive is derived from a prior change in the realm of politics from exclusive to inclusive political institutions. Exclusive institutions in the political sphere restrict power to a small coalition of the elite, who then establish an institutional structure in the economy, whereby they can generate rents for themselves. This is done by excluding the majority of the people from getting a substantial share in the fruits of economic growth. Daron Acemoglu and James Robinson (2012) in their seminal work have analysed the history of a number of countries to substantiate the earlier insight of Douglass North that exclusive political and economic institutions reinforce each other and create a powerful constraint to achieving a nation’s prosperity. This vicious circle between the political and economic spheres leads to economic policies that generate affluence for the elite at the expense of economic deprivation of the majority of the people. Therefore, it can be argued that breaking this vicious circle involves shifting political, and hence, state power from the elite to broad sections of the population.

The key to understanding transformative change is the concept of a critical juncture in the history of a country, which opens the possibility of transformation in the system of political and economic power. Acemoglu and Robinson show how in the case of the English Civil War and similar conflicts against absolutism in France and Spain during the 17th century, “a confluence of factors disrupts the existing balance of political and economic power in a nation”. These critical junctures are important moments that provide an opportunity to the excluded sections of society to break the hold of the ruling elite.

In the case of Pakistan, it can be shown that a combination of political, economic and social factors has created such a critical juncture. The citizens’ movement helped establish an independent judiciary, while the PPP government, fuelled by the passion of its martyrs, achieved constitutional amendments that aimed to institutionalise a new balance between the parliament, the executive and the president. At the same time, the prospect of a future coup d’état has been considerably reduced, even if indirect military influence in governance may persist. This has set the stage for institutional reform towards a more inclusive polity through the democratic process. However, the current coalition of the power elite, despite these changes, faces critical stresses that threaten its continued existence in its present configuration. This is due to: a) the emergence of armed militant groups as rival powers to that of the state within its territorial domain; b) the abject failure of the power elite to fulfil the fundamental function of establishing order in terms of which the existing configuration of state power is legitimised; c) the acute economic deprivation of the people in contrast to the affluence of the elite and the manifest inability of the government to address the challenges of poverty, provision of basic services and critical shortages of electricity and gas.

As John Dunn has argued, “revolutions are either ventures in creativity … an enhancement of freedom or nothing … ”. Pakistan, today, faces a revolutionary situation but there is neither a revolutionary party nor a revolutionary culture, which as Antonio Gramsci has argued, is vital for revolutionary change. What we have instead is a constellation of militant extremist groups seeking to mobilise people for political upheaval through coercion, fear and bigotry. At the same time, the depredations that the people are suffering at the hands of an incompetent, corrupt elite coalition, make the democratic structure vulnerable to mass political pressure mounted by a demagogue with the facility of what Boris Pasternak called the “tyranny of the glamorous phrase”. Reform for inclusive political and economic institutions is necessary, otherwise there could be a counter-revolution.

Published in The Express Tribune, January 28th, 2013.

 

[haviZsultan]

Friends:

Below is an article that appears in todays Tribune, I am reproducing it below and I strongly encourage you to read i, simply to understand the argument I am forwarding -- once again, just please read it and see my original posts -- some have tried to argue that we see to disengage or ditch the US, but this is misrepresentation, our position is that to have a better relationship with the US, Pakistan needs reform of it's economy and that requires a reform in the nature of politics:

But I do not believe we should forget the points I mentioned if so. This is an option but that option is not going ton remain for long. Post 2014 we can be prepared for sanctions. It would be wise to have no defence deals for a while because for a long while we were waiting for F16's to be delivered despite payments. Sources say we still are.

A relationship with US can succeed but when we are on an equal footing. You are right about reform. It was once called Ijtehad and Iqbal stated it in his philosophy. The issue is Pakistan's reputation has deteriorated even further than it originally had with the Bin Laden raid. Now the directors of all movies can let their imagination run wild with the ISI. I believe it is time to piggyback with China-if it rises we rise with it.

I do not see the problem in this. When we were sanctioned we relied heavily on China due to lack of other options. Breaking ties is a solution in case nothing else works but going by predictions this is going to happen. Sanctions will come again. When they do remember what I said. It is the unreliability of our alliance which is the issue. I thought about Faujhistorian's posts and wondered if I am over-emotional due to seeing some of the things I have as a journalist and researcher. My next post I will be more self-analytical and objective about Pakistan. It will be a conclusion from my side and will focus on the war on terror as glue and the utterly differing interests of Pakistan and USA.

They should prove that an alliance between our peoples is simply un-natural. Neutrality is the better option.

 

[LiberalAtheist]

We've pissed away enough tax dollars on Afghanistan and Pakistan now you guys are on your own we killed OBL idk why we're still in Afghanistan i guess we don't want a rapid repeat of Saigon (although it is inevitable) time to get the hell out of there and be spectators.

 

[Dushmann]

Well perhaps you can explain why after 11 years of war in Muslim majority countries, the problem persists, why is it that WoT is like toothpaste, one squeeze seems to result in the problem arising elsewhere and in response another intervention is justified.

Everyone knows, when it comes to foreign policy, US/ Anglo-American Axis cares only for the interests of their own contry. They don't care too much about morality etc. So it doesn't matter what the so called allies do in their own country. Whether they are democracy or theocracy or military dictatorship, US will deal with whoever rules and whoever favors them or at least does not pose direct threat to US's regional interests. In this aspect the Afghanistan war or rather the Af-Pak war (Afghanistan is a small fish which was proxy ruled by Pakistan Army/ISI. Although actual war ground appears to be going on Afghanistan soil, real player is Pakistan or at least a section of Pakistani establishment and society) was very different than Iraq and other US interventions. Iraq et al are about oil, dollar hegemony etc, there US actively gets involved using some lame excuse, whereas Afghanistan was ironically a genuine cause where US had to get involved because of 9/11.

Don't get me wrong, I understand the frustration on not being able to solve a problem, and I do agree with the suggestion that armed Salafist takhfiri ideology is a problem - PRIMARILY FOR MUSLIMS, not non-Muslims, after all, look at who they target, it's primarily Muslims - coincidence??? 11 years of coincidence, is a lot of coincidence, don't ya think???

For US or West, it does not matter what Muslims do with each other, their foreign policy aims to secure their own country's interests and safety. All they care is that they don't want planes going in their buildings and bomb blasts in their trains and markets. They may have supported ****** groups in great games on foreign soils through intelligence agencies, but bringing it on their own soil is strict no no. That's the mistake the Jiahdi axis did.

And please do not misrepresent, we are not suggesting disengaging from the US, we want the very best of relations with the US, however, the very best relations with the US are commercial and civilizational, not one limited to a security relationship whicj alienates populations from their governments.

It's not like US and Pakistan are in a new relationship and now they have to decide the terms. Pakistan already made choice decades ago, at the beginning of cold war. Pakistan offered military bases. Then Pakistan offered to be CIA proxy in Afghanistan (which was internal matter of Afghanistan- Soviets were invited by Afghan government itself). Pakistan chose the path. If this is slave-master relationship, Pakistan offered itself as a slave (countries such as South Korea chose to become modern developed nations, Arabs chose to become stone age but wealthy monarchies). Once you entered that profession, you should have made sure that all this does not reach master's home. Imagine pakistan as a low level mercenary/assassin/target killer/goonda/bahubali employed by a rich Zamindar/ Politician/ Mafia. The Big boss who otherwise lives normal life as an honorable citizen sometimes uses him for doing his dirty work, to maintain his power. Now the goonda is involved in some mess that has grown out of proportion and become so messy that it threatens the normal lifestyle of the big boss. Can the goonda simply refuse to clean the mess and suddenly say I'am leaving the job/ let's decide new terms of engagement? Will big boss allow that? The only thing big boss cares is that the mess must be cleaned and it should not reach his house and family. You cant say 'jaao main nahin karoonga/ boss, aapne hi to bola tha/ tum khood hi karlo.' Arguing with boss is not an option. Watch some gangster movies to know what Don does to such subordinates if they talk too much.

p.s. don't bring other countries in this. this is not the only kind of relationship. Zamindar sahib can have normal friends and neighbors also. If some delinquent teenager comes and asks for the dirty job (he thinks it's 'cool', Wow feels like a bollywood hero), he will be used. why blame others?