Making COIN operations better

[Kompromat]

When we receive them new drones, the militants will find it hard to set up hilltop ambushes without getting cooked.

 

[Metal 0-1]

Posted a couple of threads about new combat roles you are talking about and Nato squad structure/roles. The old zehniat afsars here on PDF shrugged it off.

The typical reply PA kniws everything better than you OR they don't have need/resources.

We need to change their thinking. Does the life of their men are not precious? Yes we don't have resources. But we do have men trained in such disciplines. PAF SSW men are trained for these roles. Embed them with fire teams. Medics are must, they can save many lives. SSW PJs must be their for their comrades.

 

[Sine Nomine]

Posted a couple of threads about new combat roles you are talking about and Nato squad structure/roles. The old zehniat afsars here on PDF shrugged it off.

Links plz.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

I think Army should introduce these new combat roles in regulars as well. PJs can't be there for everyone.

We need to change their thinking. Does the life of their men are not precious? Yes we don't have resources. But we do have men trained in such disciplines. PAF SSW men are trained for these roles. Embed them with fire teams. Medics are must, they can save many lives. SSW PJs must be their for their comrades.

Quite a while ago man. It was either threads or posts/or maybe both. I use PDF on Android. So I don't know how to dig it up.

Links plz.

 

[Metal 0-1]

I think Army should introduce these new combat roles in regulars as well. PJs can't be there for everyone.

I agree with you. What I am saying is Medics training take time. For short notice PJs may serve as combat medics. As soon as regulars and SF have sufficient medics PJs can go to their original role. CASEVAC from hot environments.

 

[Metal 0-1]

This type of reaction and training is what we need. A Marine is shot and he didn't freaked out he asked his teammates to apply a tourniquet he knows what to do under stress.

 

[PanzerKiel]

This type of reaction and training is what we need. A Marine is shot and he didn't freaked out he asked his teammates to apply a tourniquet he knows what to do under stress.

Depends on person to person how he acts once he is shot. Being shot is, generally, a first in a life experience. No amount of training can train you on how to behave once you are shot. It is common for all armies, you will find soldiers behaving both ways.

 

[PanzerKiel]

Why isn't the gun of the vehicle being utilized?

Could be multiple reasons....bullet strike on the gun making it ineffective, its firer might be in shock due to explosions, gunner could have been hit, gunner might be tending to a wounded inside, gunner might be giving a hand to driver to drive the vehicle....there can be more reasons.

 

[Amaa'n]

Could be multiple reasons....bullet strike on the gun making it ineffective, its firer might be in shock due to explosions, gunner could have been hit, gunner might be tending to a wounded inside, gunner might be giving a hand to driver to drive the vehicle....there can be more reasons.

Or the gunner might not be there at all

 

[Metal 0-1]

Depends on person to person how he acts once he is shot. Being shot is, generally, a first in a life experience. No amount of training can train you on how to behave once you are shot. It is common for all armies, you will find soldiers behaving both ways.

In our case mostly freaked out..

 

[CHI RULES]

In our case mostly freaked out..

Now army and FC are sufficiently trained to deal with ambushes I have heard that army personnel get anti terrorism training before deployed. The real battle fields has many challenges there are videos where US soldiers can be observed in deep shock or shivering. In Baluchistan after counter terror operations the position is much stable. It is my humble request to avoid negativity.

 

[CHI RULES]

I have personally visited few areas of Baluchistan, like Quetta, Zhob, Loaralai and few others can't remember. I have good memories of area and people. Even at that time in 1993-4 you could observe few slogans of nationalists on walls. But people were overall friendly however the situations became worst after Bugti incident. That incident was used as an excuse by militants along with previous problematic history. The issue in Baluchistan was and is basically related to lower living standards and almost no opportunities for youth, same was more or less case with tribal areas of KPK.
The Govt in recent past and now has taken steps jointly with military and results are positive.
1- The anti terrorism training of Military/FC/other law enforcement agencies.
2- Relatively better military hardware.
3- Intelligence based military operations.
4- Free boarding and schooling of Baluchistan/FATA boys in military run schools and colleges. Even cadet colleges are established there.
5- General amnesty and material benefits for ex-militants.
6-Direct contacts with nationalist leaders in foreign countries in return many have softened their stance.
7- Counter intelligence operations against foreign agencies .
8- Induction of Baluchistan/FATA youngsters in different military cadres.
ETC.

What is lacking is perhaps the proper infrastructure development and creation of jobs for youth at massive level. Engage the youth of Baluchistan and Politicians for constructive dialogue.

Now perhaps is the right time to keep military operations limited and to divert all economic resources to raise living standards in Baluchistan not only Quetta but far flung areas which are breeding grounds for militancy.

 

[R Wing]

I was noticing casualties during previous days. Army suffered some damage but operations were successful. More sacrifices are going to be made till we completely weed out terrorism. But we can reduce the casualties, moreover we can make COIN more effective.
Infantry is rough and tough no doubt but it is need to train better and equip them better.

We can do different things to make it better.

Fire Support on station:
This includes fire support form every means.

CAS( Close Air Support); TACPs and CCTs belonging to PAF SSW which are embedded with SOF or Infantry can call in air support when when things go wrong. Army Aviation and Air Force birds must remain on station.
Artillery or Mortars; Again TACP/CCT come into play they also can direct fire support from Ground Elements.
OR From Overwatch; SF guys in Area or Snipers from any unit in AO can play its role.

Medical Support:
Medevac on station really helps in reducing casualties. Combat Medics are must for SOF Community and Regular Troops or LCBs. JTACs do not only direct fire support they also are handy in calling medevac. PJs of PAF SSW must remain on station to pull out wounded in heavy fire. PJs can also remain or embedded with Teams to provide medical help on spot.


Training:
Yes Pakistani army has changed and evolved its training regime with time. We must focus on training them in reacting under stressed conditions, reaction to ambush, more CQB. NCTC Pabbi is doing a great job we just need to improve standards. FC Balochistan have suffered more casualties as a result of ambushes than head to head fight. I am not very good at putting forward my arguments but Seniors do understand.
Need to add more training courses in our training regime.

1. Combat Medic

Like other courses a person from every branch can join this course. Military should encourage personnel to join Medic courses. This include many terms but on thing which is more important is TCCC( Tactical Combat Casualty Care). TCCC important components are:

• Care Under Fire (CUF)
• Tactical Field Care (TFC)
• Tactical Evacuation Care (TACEVAC)

Combat medic or not everyone should learn basics of TCCC. If its not possible in such short notice embed some PAF SSW PJ (Para-rescuemen) with SF, Infantry, LCB or keep them on station.

2. JTAC
Joint Terminal Attack Controller its another course where you learn to make contact to rotary or fixed wing aircraft and call in airstrikes. Like US military all sister branches personnel can go through JTAC course whether he is Air Force TACP/CCT or not.
Yes its not feasible to join many persons for this purpose don't have such resources. Limit it to LCB and to SF community or we can do which makes sense a lot embed PAF SSW TACP/CCT with Infantry, SF, LCB which can call in air support.

3. Marksmans
Our Infantry, SF or any other Unit roles with SMGs or M-4s whatever some of them are equipped with Aimpoints or EO-Techs which are used for fighting in closed ranges. None of them are equipped with long range optics like ACOG which is helpful in long distance firefight. One or two marksman equipped with DMR must be present in every Team and one or two ACOGs wont hurt.

Equipment:

These type of fancy dreams are only possible with right equipment.

Mediacal IFAK

1x SOFTT-W Tourniquet - Rescue Orange
1x Naso Airway w/ Lube, 28 Fr
1x Hyfin Vent COMPACT Chest Seal, Twin Pack
1x NAR Compressed Gauze
2x TritonGrip SE Nitrile Gloves XL - 1 Rolled Pair
1x Israeli Emergency Bandage, 4"
1x RE Mini Sharpie Marker
1x Combat Medic Reinforcement Tape, 2" x 100"
1x RE Tactical Combat Casualty Care (TCCC) Card
1x Survival Rescue Blanket-Compact
1x QuikClot Combat Gauze, Z-Folded, 3" x 4yds
1x Rescue Essentials 600D Compact IFAK Rip-Away Pouch - BLACK

DMRs:
We are producing DMRs now its tome to equip men on the ground the them. That'll be helpful.

NOTE: I am just not experienced in writing so, I will appreciate if you point out mistakes. If you taunt it will doesn't matter either.
Again not very experienced. Just my ideas from my Brilliant mind.

About 10 years ago, I --- like you --- believed that there are major tactical flaws resulting in higher casualty rates. And, like you, I would give lengthy prescriptions of kit and tactics to fix that. However, once I saw things on the ground, I realized that ALL this and more is covered by CT / specop teams who review each raid for lessons learnt. You have to understand that the gold standard of --- the pinnacle --- of where these tactics are developed and honed is a Tier 1 unit just as capable of CQB as any Western one (if not more.) Everything you've said has been talked about and implemented since almost 10 years now.

Why the high casualties, you ask? There are a couple of reasons. The first is that many regular units are ambushed. Even the best equipped and most highly trained troops can fall victim to one --- just ask NATO. The second is that the concept of shahadat has given rise to a unique culture where bravado sometimes trumps meticulous planning. Case in point was a recent Col who decided to take it upon himself, and his small CT, to conduct a complex raid (in the interest of time) VS. wait for a Tier 1 or 2 special mission unit to arrive, etc --- what if the terrorists escape by then? So, it's all very dynamic --- I can assure you that when there's a raid planned for a HVT by the Zarrar ATU, it makes for a thriller just like the OBL raid (except more real!)

suppose op is in dera ismail khan densly populated neighborhood sniper cant be placed just for some reason such as no vantage point we got 10 insurgents in a house air strike is not possible because of risk of collateral damage what do you do? you dont send infantry in every situation my humble opinion is use special forces for such ops like hayat abad dont you agree? because they know cqb and have right equipment like stun grenade and good protection problem is you cant fly in SF team in matter of minutes you can loose element of surprise .For that lcb is there but they need better equipment.Other than that we need timely and actionable intel like most of soldiers and commanders dont know what they walk in.

Please see my answer above.

A major problem is the emphasis on local units to conduct IBOs. Regulars move in to cordon off the compound or hideout but in process give away element of surprise. Hence the militants are prepared and inflict casualties to the barging troops.

The threat level faced by the insurgents here should also be kept in mind. Balochistan and KP have a terrain that suits militants in setting up ambushes and brisking away with little risks, as the military cannot expend resources for a full-fledged high-tempo operation - requires accurate intel, resources and possibility of achieving end-goal.

The insurgents in Balochistan fully exploit this factor. They are no ragtags; they use LMGs, RPGs and sniper rifles too. And dur to reasons unknown, many ops against them are not disclosed by the Mil PR.

The COIN war will continue to be like this - encounters based on dubious MI reports with relatively high casualties, meticulously planned ambushes using home terrain and local support in the barren sh*thole that is BLN and NWA, and cross-border attacks at fencing patrols and posts.

You can only get rid of this by switching gears - going on the offensive. We all know the militants have sanctuaries in Afghanistan; but the civ-mil apparatus has other priorities for now (such as saving the economy).

Ah, a fan of Tier 1 ops I see...

The civ-mil apparatus definitely has other priorities but the economy thing is (mostly) just a smokescreen. The entire mil apparatus --- especially special ops infrastructure --- does not need to be involved in economic planning or hindered by a weak economy. In fact, we're just painting ourselves into an ever-smaller corner by being defensive and trying to (unsuccessfully) convince everyone that it's just "restraint" and "maturity."

Alas, we will keep going in circles on this forum with 0 power to right the wrongs around us... so I won't even waste my or your time saying what Pakistan "should" do --- because we all know the answer.

 

[Cuirassier]

About 10 years ago, I --- like you --- believed that there are major tactical flaws resulting in higher casualty rates. And, like you, I would give lengthy prescriptions of kit and tactics to fix that. However, once I saw things on the ground, I realized that ALL this and more is covered by CT / specop teams who review each raid for lessons learnt. You have to understand that the gold standard of --- the pinnacle --- of where these tactics are developed and honed is a Tier 1 unit just as capable of CQB as any Western one (if not more.) Everything you've said has been talked about and implemented since almost 10 years now.

Why the high casualties, you ask? There are a couple of reasons. The first is that many regular units are ambushed. Even the best equipped and most highly trained troops can fall victim to one --- just ask NATO. The second is that the concept of shahadat has given rise to a unique culture where bravado sometimes trumps meticulous planning. Case in point was a recent Col who decided to take it upon himself, and his small CT, to conduct a complex raid (in the interest of time) VS. wait for a Tier 1 or 2 special mission unit to arrive, etc --- what if the terrorists escape by then? So, it's all very dynamic --- I can assure you that when there's a raid planned for a HVT by the Zarrar ATU, it makes for a thriller just like the OBL raid (except more real!)



Please see my answer above.



Ah, a fan of Tier 1 ops I see...

The civ-mil apparatus definitely has other priorities but the economy thing is (mostly) just a smokescreen. The entire mil apparatus --- especially special ops infrastructure --- does not need to be involved in economic planning or hindered by a weak economy. In fact, we're just painting ourselves into an ever-smaller corner by being defensive and trying to (unsuccessfully) convince everyone that it's just "restraint" and "maturity."

Alas, we will keep going in circles on this forum with 0 power to right the wrongs around us... so I won't even waste my or your time saying what Pakistan "should" do --- because we all know the answer.

True.

 

[PanzerKiel]

@PanzerKiel @Signalian

It hurts so much to see this!

[MEDIAGis-tI[/MEDIA]

It does, and my assurance to you all, the terrorists get a hell lot worse than what they do us.