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PAF locked on 9 shoot only two...PAF official....0n 27 Feb....

It is only PAF higher commands and Govt, Please don't include P.A.

regards,

Sir may be it is easy to criticize when you are out of game, during Kargil PAF had officially no BVRs, and spares for F16s were limited so fleet was in limited operational use. I personally feel that apart from few skirmishes it was not wise for PAF to indulge in all out war. The planning of effective use of PAF should have been done before Kargil along with acquisition of required resources.

It is the international law that a smaller country even if is able to maintain status quo or sustains minimal loss even then is considered successful. Apart from BD fiasco the armed forces in broader terms have done much better.
 
Fact : Indians claims surgical strikes before Feb 26, 19.
Fact : On 26 Feb 19, they sent their Jets to bomb Pakistan. Not just Azad Kashmir, but Pakistan, a clear declaration of war.
Fact: On 27th Feb 19, Pakistan was already at war after IAF airstrikes in Balakot, Pakistan.
Fact : On 26th World knew India was the aggressor, it announced it to the world. And that Pakistan was just responding to their aggression in self defence.
Fact: Pakistan has all the legitimacy to hot pursue and destroy the Indian jets on 26th Feb 19, in defence. Even if they cross the LOC. If they didn't bother to worry about borders and intrusion in to Pakistani Air Space, why were we respecting the Indian Air Space!!

You see my friend, you can make any excuse you want, show bravado, or prove that the answer given was befitting. But the fact remain, PAF shied away as usual. IAF and IA knows it that it is our weakness. Giving your weaknesses to your enemy which is hell bound to destroy you, is not a good idea.
As for nuclear scenario. That is the biggest casualty of the Feb exchanges. Pakistan's nuclear deterrent is now made redundant by the Indians.
They know that they can intrude and attack Pakistan anytime they want without risk of starting a nuclear war and without befitting response from Pakistan.
Please don't argue about these facts, you have already admitted that Pakistanis didn't shoot down all the planes locked by PAF. That is the topic of this thread.
Arguments for the sake of it are waste of time, when facts are looking at our faces.


Bhai that's what I am asking.. Why to shoot down aircraft only... if u going that route why to deliberately miss targets u already locked? ? And than why to sit back and wait retaliation ? Why not hit all air bases pre emptively? And why only with conventional weapons ?? why not tactical nukes to assure complete destruction ???

And for fallen trees why not take out cities as well with strategic nukez

The instigator of this theory is plain old drunk. .. I m surprised people buying into it


There has to b method to madness

Warning was warranted and has been given .

Can someone tell me sense of intentially missing ground targets and than dropping aircraft deep in enemy territory which happen to b running away from fight? ??
 
Agreed. The only difference is that when you go in to the enemy territory with pre declared promise that you will have no other choice but to respond and attack India after their aggression. Why would you just slap them, and not leave their face bloody!!
What you are professing is another word for "cowardice". We will do it, only this far, because if we go little further there would be war.
War is inevitable, Indians are preparing for it. Pakistan keep hiding as long as they want, war is coming to them.

Response was given. Attack on India was made. Problem is you don't like the extent of that reply and that's OK with me. As far as coming war is coming... Can you tell me When exactly? India is preparing since day one.

For red part, I would only say had that been the case, you wouldn't have an Op Swift Retort section in PAF Museum. War fighting is not task of PAF alone. Wars are fought by nations. Do you think this nation is ready for a zero-sum battle? NO!
 
It is only PAF higher commands and Govt, Please don't include P.A.

regards,

When we talk about PAF or PA, it is always the high commands, the poor soldiers only follow orders.

Response was given. Attack on India was made. Problem is you don't like the extent of that reply and that's OK with me. As far as coming war is coming... Can you tell me When exactly? India is preparing since day one.

For red part, I would only say had that been the case, you wouldn't have an Op Swift Retort section in PAF Museum. War fighting is not task of PAF alone. Wars are fought by nations. Do you think this nation is ready for a zero-sum battle? NO!

I will say this only, lets face you are involved in a fist fight with a stronger man, when he hit you, you just hit him with same force you were hit. What would be his response for the next punch!!
What Indians are going to do next time or every time from now on is to attack Pakistan like 26th Feb.
You have removed their doubts they had that any attack would result in all out war, and possible nuclear exchange.
But reluctance in response had removed the nuclear deterrent. Now India is not scared about possible nuclear war.
Remember, nuclear is there for deterrence not for use. It had kept America Vs USSR at bay.
 
I know my post against Mr. MastaanKhan will most probably be deleted but it is really beyond my mental threshold of BS.

If all of these people including the PM, the Cabinet Members, the Generals, the Airforce officials were cowards, why was operation Swift Retort given the go ahead in the first place? India had no solid proof (they have non even till date) of hitting anything on the ground much less killing 300 terrorists, we could have just negated their narrative and sat on our point that it was a failed attempt and done nothing..

Mr. MastanKhan you have no idea what Operation SWIFT Retort was, how it was planned and how it was executed. Neither were you sitting in the cockpit of one of the Mirages/JF-17's carrying the bombs heading fearlessly towards enemy territory nor the F-16 fighter sweep tasked with bearing the brunt of a possible enemy counter attack. You were not one of the soldiers standing guard on the border in front of enemy's guns, heck you weren't even one of the common people on ground in Pakistan who would have faced the outcome of the Nuclear Holocaust. You have no right to call anyone a coward.

Operation Swift Retort could easily have gone totally wrong, it was a calculated risk with countless variable even one of which not going as planned would have severely backfired resulting in loss of many a brave sons of soil none of whom were you or someone closely related to you.

We are proud of our Airforce, for their resolve and for their bravery. There was no need to shoot down anymore enemy aircraft and we didn't and because of that India today has been labeled as the aggressor and Pakistan as a successful defender of it's sovereignty.
Very well put together. All the ppl here that are saying that we should've shot all 9 jets..and not doing so is cowardice or painting it in a political manner scoring points against IK or PTI...they don't understand the concept of escalation.

Pak had to carefully choose a proper response...to deliver the message that India's misadventures will be appropriately dealt with and punished...all the while not escalating to war. Pak did exactly that...the message was received and understood on the other side...their military backed off and didn't dare to respond. At the same time war was avoided. How is such perfection not appreciated? Hell, u fanboys don't even have to appreciate it...the least u guys can do is not complain.

The fanboys who think that PAF should've destroyed all 9 jets and the ground targets that were intentionally missed...and India wouldn't have dared to attack...
...that is assuming too much. No one has a crystal ball and no one can say that with certainty that it wouldn't have led to a full scale war. Such disproportionate destruction of enemy assets...probably would have led to some sort of response(even if not full scale war)...just to save face
...if not through their air force then in some other manner where they have the upper hand.

Then what? Then Pak would have to respond and so on and so forth. It is idiotic to ASSUME that the enemy simply wouldn't respond...when one starts to make such assumptions that's when a calculated strategy goes out the window.

Economy is one of the biggest factors in an all out war. Not only is India far ahead of Pak in that regard...their industrial capacity is also much larger than Pak...on a war footing they can sustain it much longer than Pak can in its current condition. So what would be the point of escalating and ending up in a scenario where u r at a disadvantage? All these fanboys need to look at any war in history and see how it goes hand in hand with the economy. Even if by some miracle in a full scale war...nuclear exchange could be avoided...and Pak wins conventionally against India under the current economic conditions of Pak...
...millions would starve due to sheer inflation of currency, destruction of infrastructure and resources, and whatever few resources remain would be prioritized for the military. This pyrrhic victory would be in the best case scenario based on current Pak economy that is barely hanging by a thread.
 
Pakistan has always put forward the “Mutual Assured Peace” while the Enemy is hell bent upon MAD, it knows that the result will be MAD but it seems that RSS Hindutva ideology is far above MAD...

People need to read the facts and had to update themselves instead of emotional meltdown while attempting to belittle others. IoK 360 abolition was part of BJP election manifesto since long ... long before someone could think of Pulwama at all. Imagine the disaster when people don't read situation instead injects misleading & dis-info statements.
 
When we talk about PAF or PA, it is always the high commands, the poor soldiers only follow orders.



I will say this only, lets face you are involved in a fist fight with a stronger man, when he hit you, you just hit him with same force you were hit. What would be his response for the next punch!!
What Indians are going to do next time or every time from now on is to attack Pakistan like 26th Feb.
You have removed their doubts they had that any attack would result in all out war, and possible nuclear exchange.
But reluctance in response had removed the nuclear deterrent. Now India is not scared about possible nuclear war.
Remember, nuclear is there for deterrence not for use. It had kept America Vs USSR at bay.

See that bold part. There are three problems.

1. You want to draw conclusion of a strategic war based on a scenario of a street fight. Former is far more complex and things it involves simply don't matter in later.

2. It is completely circular argument. If nuclear deterrence failed; Why did India refuse to climb the ladder any further? Because it hasn't failed.

3. If nuclear is there for deterrence not for use ... why there has been no war so far? Because our scenario is v different from that of US and USSR.
 
Should have gone for all of them...

You lock, you shoot...

They've come for you, so you take them out...

The rulers of engagement appear to have been 'to shoot only those aircraft that crossed the LoC." The Su-30MKI may have entered Azak Kashmir and then turned its tail but the F-16 might have already launched the AMRAAMs by then. MiG-21 failed to do the same and got shot down. Other IAF aircraft did not cross the LoC but instead pulled back even further inside the Indian occupied territories. Had PAF taken an initiative to shoot at all 9 (retreating) aircraft across LoC then the rules of engagement would have changed completely. It could have portrayed Pakistan as an aggressor as well as hand over the control over the escalation ladder to India. IAF would then have every justification to carry out more aggressive actions, which of course would have been reciprocated to by the PAF and thus the conflict would have spiralled out of control. The mere fact that the conflict ended with Pakistan's one-upmanship shows that Pakistani/PAF calculations were correct and the conflict de-escalated on our terms.
 
Sometimes I like your BS but not this time. Each and every sentence you have written has been proven wrong by brave pilots of PAF on ground.

Hi,

You can jump holler and scream at your lower threshold of success all you want---.

A failure is a failure---. All you are doing is lowering the grade to make it a passing grade.

Mach 3 is the maximum speed mig 25 could attain. You need to undeestand that top speed of the aircraft are the max speeds that can be achieved for short period of time in emergency only otherwise it will destroy the engine and airframe. So most of the time aircraft fly at cruise speed which is sub sonic without afyer burners engaged.

Do u really think that indians had such a big edge even during kargil war and didnt took advantage of it ? Whereas PAF was sleeping for 25 years ?

Hi,

At mach 3 the mig25 had blown engines multiple times---.

The aircraft may fly at around 6000ft maybe 70000ft---the pilot would have to don a "pressure suit" ( space suit )---.

Why did the Paf not intercept the mig25---cowardice of the TOP MANAGEMENT---and sanction prone F16's with minimal spare parts.

There is a way to intercept the high speed aircraft---do some research and you will find out.

As for the flight altitude of the mig25---an interesting read---.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/b...oxbat-never-could-touch-sr-71-blackbird-68487

I know my post against Mr. MastaanKhan will most probably be deleted but it is really beyond my mental threshold of BS.

If all of these people including the PM, the Cabinet Members, the Generals, the Airforce officials were cowards, why was operation Swift Retort given the go ahead in the first place? India had no solid proof (they have non even till date) of hitting anything on the ground much less killing 300 terrorists, we could have just negated their narrative and sat on our point that it was a failed attempt and done nothing..

Mr. MastanKhan you have no idea what Operation SWIFT Retort was, how it was planned and how it was executed. Neither were you sitting in the cockpit of one of the Mirages/JF-17's carrying the bombs heading fearlessly towards enemy territory nor the F-16 fighter sweep tasked with bearing the brunt of a possible enemy counter attack. You were not one of the soldiers standing guard on the border in front of enemy's guns, heck you weren't even one of the common people on ground in Pakistan who would have faced the outcome of the Nuclear Holocaust. You have no right to call anyone a coward.

Operation Swift Retort could easily have gone totally wrong, it was a calculated risk with countless variable even one of which not going as planned would have severely backfired resulting in loss of many a brave sons of soil none of whom were you or someone closely related to you.

We are proud of our Airforce, for their resolve and for their bravery. There was no need to shoot down anymore enemy aircraft and we didn't and because of that India today has been labeled as the aggressor and Pakistan as a successful defender of it's sovereignty.

Hi,

Hello Paf pilot---welcome long time---.

Paf sat on its ar-se on the night of feb 26th---. It was happy with what it did on the night of the 26th---. The general command was satisfied---. If it was not for the public pressure---Paf would have stayed cowed down and happy with its usual narrative of gunsight lock phots and missile lock phots---.

So please keep your nationalistic rarara---.

None other than the pilots have to sit in the cockpits and none other than trained soldiers in uniforms go to battle---.

The public just does not keep its mouth shut just so that you can strut and preen around---.

There were those in the cabinet who called to take them all out---cowardice was not a unanimous decision of the cabinet---.

You are intentionally trying to confuse the readers---.

All aspects of a mission are planned ahead of time---all what ifs are discussed and terms and conditions decided up front---.

When the Paf pilot went up on a strike / intercept mission---as per M M ALAM---he had full control of what happened in that sortie---he did not need to call back to seek permission---.

So---when these pilots called back seeking permission to shoot---it means that part was not discussed in the pre briefing---.

Enemy media was screaming that their aircraft had ingressed 60 miles into pakistani air space---.

See---if the Paf generals had ballz to do something aggressive---they had multiple excuses to justify their actions---the death of supposed 300 school children---60 miles incursion---and blamed it on the heat of the battle.

But no---Pak military generals had to dance and prance in front of the world---.

Lusitania was sunk to make justification of going to world war---.
Maine sunk by the US in the Havana harbor for invasion of the island---.

But no---here we were playing CUTESIES---look---" look here is the target lock at this location and at the last second we move the cursor and change the direction of the bomb "---.

This moving of the cursor thing is going to come back and haunt the Paf---.

F86 Pilot---keep trying---there are many on this forum that you will impress---.
 
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Hi,

You can jump holler and scream at your lower threshold of success all you want---.

A failure is a failure---. All you are doing is lowering the grade to make it a passing grade.

BS.

It is easier for you to sit on that arm chair and supposedly raise the bar. Instead of counting vipers on a foreign base, come to Pakistan and raise the bar here. And be at risk of a war at all times before wishing for an all out conflict.


Hi,

At mach 3 the mig25 had blown engines multiple times---.

The aircraft may fly at around 55000ft maybe 60000ft---the pilot would have to don a "pressure suit" ( space suit )---.

Why did the Paf not intercept the mig25---cowardice of the TOP MANAGEMENT---and sanction prone F16's with minimal spare parts.

There is a way to intercept the high speed aircraft---do some research and you will find out.

As for the flight altitude fo the mig25---an interesting read---.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/b...oxbat-never-could-touch-sr-71-blackbird-68487


Why didnt you work with the Russians for their SR71 solution? Did they not have the courage to shoot it down?

Had you worked alongside any such military think tank and proposed the only 'analysis' you are capable of coming up with (that the higher management was a coward. (lol) ) they would probably lay you off with recommendations to medical board for a sanity test.


Hi,

Hello Paf pilot---welcome long time---.

Paf sat on its ar-se on the night of feb 26th---. It was happy with what it did on the night of the 26th---. The general command was satisfied---. If it was not for the public pressure---Paf would have stayed cowed down and happy with its usual narrative of gunsight lock phots and missile lock phots---.

So please keep your nationalistic rarara---.

What plethora of crap.

[QUTOTE]

None other than the pilots have to sit in the cockpits and none other than trained soldiers in uniforms go to battle---.[/QUOTE]

Whats your point?

The public just does not keep its mouth shut just so that you can strut and preen around---.

Thank You. Arnt you doing the same? Not keeping your mouth shut and blabbering about PAF not waging full scale war with India. lol.

There were those in the cabinet who called to take them all out---cowardice was not a unanimous decision of the cabinet---.

Who were these brilliant idiots who wanted an all out war with India? I'm glad saner voices prevailed.

You are intentionally trying to confuse the readers---.

All aspects of a mission are planned ahead of time---all what ifs are discussed and terms and conditions decided up front---.

The situation changes time to time. Revaluation is always a necessity. Of course, you wouldn't know that. Some kind of basic education is necessary to understand such matters.

When the Paf pilot went up on a strike / intercept mission---as per M M ALAM---he had full control of what happened in that sortie---he did not need to call back to seek permission---.

Again, it is either lack of IQ or you are trying to be coy.

Comparison of 1965 war to 27th Feb skirmish is idiotic.

So---when these pilots called back seeking permission to shoot---it means that part was not discussed in the pre briefing---.

Shooting down enemy aircraft is only justified on 'own' territory. In fact, by many, Su-30 kill is seen as a violation.

Enemy media was screaming that their aircraft had ingressed 60 miles into pakistani air space---.

So what? Their media also claims 1000 different things. Why is that in discussion?

See---if the Paf generals had ballz to do something aggressive---they had multiple excuses to justify their actions---the death of supposed 300 school children---60 miles incursion---and blamed it on the heat of the battle.

What 60 miles?

But no---Pak military generals had to dance and prance in front of the world---.

What crap?

Why is this kind of repeated rhetoric being tolerated here on pdf? @The Eagle

Lusitania was sunk to make justification of going to world war---.
Maine sunk by the US in the Havana harbor for invasion of the island---.

But no---here we were playing CUTESIES---look---" look here is the target lock at this location and at the last second we move the cursor and change the direction of the bomb "---.

This moving of the cursor thing is going to come back and haunt the Paf---.

F86 Pilot---keep trying---there are many on this forum that you will impress---.

Only an idiot compares forign policy and war strategy of US with Pakistan.
 
Hi,

Totally wrong. Pulwama was nothing political.

You kids need to grow up and start thinking like the enemy and start looking thru the eyes of the enemy.

Pulwama, 26th feb was all a setup and pre cursor to annexation of Kashmir.

they were the final acts by the enemy to judge the reaction of the adversary ie pakistan.

Totally agree with you.... if Pulwama was not for armed escalation, than upgrade of Indian military hardware, change in Indian war doctrine after 27th February is as well political.

Pakistani pilots maneuvering in sky vs. Indian mirage & SU, but being denied approval to shoot after a waiting period in hostile environment... i think that's the only part where politics is evident.
 
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PAF only shot down 2 jets and they went full retard and deployed missiles. If 9 jets were shot down they would have gone full berserker and launched nuclear missiles.

They would have done nothing. The shock of seeing the abilities of the JF17 would have resulted in total and utter confusion.

That little cockroach JF17 destroying / decimating the Mahabali—-the screams would have been heard the world over.
 

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