Why is Pakistan afraid of international perception when testing its ICBM?

[Gessler]

I am well aware of it but i choose to use the word skeptical for a reason. We do have a tendency to surprise, but then again not while we have Zardari and his bunch of thugs ruling.

Waiting for pakistan to "surprise" us with something comparable to A3 first, hehehe

Sir,

Would you stop this idiocy----a weapon is a weapon---regardless of what technology---. All your missiles are a copy of other's technologies as well---. In this day and age---it would be stupid to start all over and design your own missile from a scratch----and you can't even do that---because the hard drives of the world scientific brains have been corrupted by the WW11 missile design---until and unless you bring in a different kind of missile.

Is a person any less dead with someone else's technology---.

You misunderstood me MK. I never doubted the missiles' lethality. My post was about how they're
put into service after just a few tests.

 

[Developereo]

No, my friend. My comment had less to do with the Jewish-Arab dispute than with Pakistan's own problems with hatred. Anti-Semitism, anti-minority-ism if you will, is a disease where the object hated is made to suffer as well as the people bearing the disease. That's the point of the article I linked to.

Many of us accept that certain elements in Pakistani society use religious bigotry as a motivating tool. I don't want to digress too much and will only say that this is not unique to Pakistan. I can't think of a single country in the world where this doesn't happen, including some level of tacit support by the power structure. The problem in Pakistan is that law enforcement is so compromised that these idiots feel emboldened.

 

[The SC]

Pak alert forces India to rejig flights to Gulf

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-defence-industry/175308-pak-alert-forces-india-rejig-flights-gulf.html#post2860327

 

[MastanKhan]

Waiting for pakistan to "surprise" us with something comparable to A3 first, hehehe



You misunderstood me MK. I never doubted the missiles' lethality. My post was about how they're
put into service after just a few tests.

Hi,

Thank you for your post---I wanted to write it earlier---but did not---so here it is---. If you look at pakistan's history----their pace of either procurement or development and deployment of weapons is on a much faster track than that of india.

Why does it take lesser number of tests---maybe the quality of workmanship is of a higher level. But if it keeps happening more often---as it does---then you have a problem at your end. For us---it is a normal number of flight tests.

To me, it looks like that there are a lots of them with vested interests in india who want to make a lot more money from this defence industry---not that pakistan does not have their share---but my indian brethren have taken it to a different pleateau----( corruption ).

Pak does not need this long range missile----it would completely change its force projection. But if push comes to shove---it is not an issue---. Every item from us, that people said can't be done---we did it---so---maybe if you have wishful thinking---we might do it---but where would we use----you are not 4000 miles away from us----.

 

[toxic_pus]

Why does it take lesser number of tests---maybe the quality of workmanship is of a higher level. But if it keeps happening more often---as it does---then you have a problem at your end. For us---it is a normal number of flight tests.

That is the nationalist in you that is doing the talking. The consensus among observers are however different.

Despite considerable assistance from the PRC, Pakistan's indigenous ballistic missile program headed by Dr. Abdul Qadeer Khan and centered at the Khan (Kahuta) Research Laboratories, progressed slowly during the 1980s with the development of the Hatf I and Hatf II. Following India's February 1988 test of its Prithvi ballistic missile the PRC agreed to provide Pakistan with increased ballistic missile technology assistance and, more significantly, with both the 600 km M-9 (CSS-6/DF-15) and 280 km M-11 (CSS-7/DF-11) missiles. The first of these systems began arriving during late 1988.

[snip]

...Pakistani and Iranian specialists are believed to have been present for the DPRK's 29-30 May 1993 test event in which one No-dong and three Scud Mod. B/Cs were launched.


The birth of the Ghauri program is believed to date to late 1993, or early 1994, following Benazir Bhutto's re-election as prime minister in October 1993. In December of that year she travelled to the PRC and DPRK. Although she publicly denied it subsequent events indicate that she was seeking, among other things, increased cooperation in the development of a ballistic missiles. Specifically, a system capable of striking strategic targets within India. Immediately after leaving Beijing, Bhutto travelled to P'yongyang on 30 December to request similar assistance from the DPRK.

The PRC leadership, painfully aware of the problems it was encountering with its continued efforts in providing M-11 components and systems to Pakistan, apparently had no desire to further damage its relations with the US and other Asian countries by directly providing Pakistan with an IRBM. Yet it had a long standing and intimate defense relationship with Pakistan and the Bhutto family. To satisfy the requirements for deniability, yet still support what it perceived as legitimate Pakistani defense concerns, a program was developed in which the PRC would continue to finance the establishment and expansion of a ballistic missile infrastructure within Pakistan and provide the soft technology and engineering for a new Pakistani IRBM which would eventually be called the Ghauri. The DPRK would serve as a conduit for a portion of the PRC assistance and provide hardware and components from its No-dong and Taep'o-dong programs. The PRC is also believed to have agreed to provide components in those areas which the DPRK was still struggling (e.g., guidance).

[snip]

Choe's is believed to have finalized the agreement to provide Pakistan with either major components (possibly fuel tanks and rocket engines) from the No-dong or Taep'o-dong programs or a modified No-dong missile. The agreed upon items were to be produced by the Fourth Machine Industry Bureau of the 2nd Economic Committee and a majority are believed to have been delivered to the Khan Research Laboratories in Spring of the following year by the Changgwang Sinyong Corporation (a.k.a., North Korea Mining Development Trading Corporation/Bureau).

[snip]

In addition to missile related components and technologies the DPRK has provided Pakistan with the launcher utilized for the Ghauri test, and may be assisting in developing its own transporter-erector-launchers (TEL) or mobile erector launchers. The Ghauri launcher, like that for the DPRK's No-dong, is an evolutionary development of the standard Russian MAZ-543TLM used for the R-17 Scud. The model provided to Pakistan is probably the same used for the No-dong.

[snip]

During March 1996, the DPRK cargo ship Chonsung was detained by Taiwanese authorities for improperly declaring 15 tonnes (200 barrels) of ammonia perchlorate (a key component in solid rocket fuels) which was being shipped to Pakistan's Space and Upper Atmosphere Research Commission (SUPARCO).

SOURCE

​

Thats why you don't need that many tests.

 

[MastanKhan]

That is the nationalist in you that is doing the talking. The consensus among observers are however different.

Despite considerable assistance from the PRC, Pakistan's indigenous ballistic missile program headed by Dr. Abdul Qadeer Khan and centered at the Khan (Kahuta) Research Laboratories, progressed slowly during the 1980s with the development of the Hatf I and Hatf II. Following India's February 1988 test of its Prithvi ballistic missile the PRC agreed to provide Pakistan with increased ballistic missile technology assistance and, more significantly, with both the 600 km M-9 (CSS-6/DF-15) and 280 km M-11 (CSS-7/DF-11) missiles. The first of these systems began arriving during late 1988.

[snip]

...Pakistani and Iranian specialists are believed to have been present for the DPRK's 29-30 May 1993 test event in which one No-dong and three Scud Mod. B/Cs were launched.


The birth of the Ghauri program is believed to date to late 1993, or early 1994, following Benazir Bhutto's re-election as prime minister in October 1993. In December of that year she travelled to the PRC and DPRK. Although she publicly denied it subsequent events indicate that she was seeking, among other things, increased cooperation in the development of a ballistic missiles. Specifically, a system capable of striking strategic targets within India. Immediately after leaving Beijing, Bhutto travelled to P'yongyang on 30 December to request similar assistance from the DPRK.

The PRC leadership, painfully aware of the problems it was encountering with its continued efforts in providing M-11 components and systems to Pakistan, apparently had no desire to further damage its relations with the US and other Asian countries by directly providing Pakistan with an IRBM. Yet it had a long standing and intimate defense relationship with Pakistan and the Bhutto family. To satisfy the requirements for deniability, yet still support what it perceived as legitimate Pakistani defense concerns, a program was developed in which the PRC would continue to finance the establishment and expansion of a ballistic missile infrastructure within Pakistan and provide the soft technology and engineering for a new Pakistani IRBM which would eventually be called the Ghauri. The DPRK would serve as a conduit for a portion of the PRC assistance and provide hardware and components from its No-dong and Taep'o-dong programs. The PRC is also believed to have agreed to provide components in those areas which the DPRK was still struggling (e.g., guidance).

[snip]

Choe's is believed to have finalized the agreement to provide Pakistan with either major components (possibly fuel tanks and rocket engines) from the No-dong or Taep'o-dong programs or a modified No-dong missile. The agreed upon items were to be produced by the Fourth Machine Industry Bureau of the 2nd Economic Committee and a majority are believed to have been delivered to the Khan Research Laboratories in Spring of the following year by the Changgwang Sinyong Corporation (a.k.a., North Korea Mining Development Trading Corporation/Bureau).

[snip]

In addition to missile related components and technologies the DPRK has provided Pakistan with the launcher utilized for the Ghauri test, and may be assisting in developing its own transporter-erector-launchers (TEL) or mobile erector launchers. The Ghauri launcher, like that for the DPRK's No-dong, is an evolutionary development of the standard Russian MAZ-543TLM used for the R-17 Scud. The model provided to Pakistan is probably the same used for the No-dong.

[snip]

During March 1996, the DPRK cargo ship Chonsung was detained by Taiwanese authorities for improperly declaring 15 tonnes (200 barrels) of ammonia perchlorate (a key component in solid rocket fuels) which was being shipped to Pakistan's Space and Upper Atmosphere Research Commission (SUPARCO).

SOURCE

​

Thats why you don't need that many tests.

Okay---if that satisfies you---that is fine---. As I stated earlier---pakistan millitary consortium does not want to re-invent the wheel----. Indian millitary consortium otoh loves to keep things spinning---russians stole american designs---american stole russian designs---they both stole from germany and china stole from all of them---.

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

That is the nationalist in you that is doing the talking. The consensus among observers are however different.

Despite considerable assistance from the PRC, Pakistan's indigenous ballistic missile program headed by Dr. Abdul Qadeer Khan and centered at the Khan (Kahuta) Research Laboratories, progressed slowly during the 1980s with the development of the Hatf I and Hatf II. Following India's February 1988 test of its Prithvi ballistic missile the PRC agreed to provide Pakistan with increased ballistic missile technology assistance and, more significantly, with both the 600 km M-9 (CSS-6/DF-15) and 280 km M-11 (CSS-7/DF-11) missiles. The first of these systems began arriving during late 1988.

[snip]

...Pakistani and Iranian specialists are believed to have been present for the DPRK's 29-30 May 1993 test event in which one No-dong and three Scud Mod. B/Cs were launched.


The birth of the Ghauri program is believed to date to late 1993, or early 1994, following Benazir Bhutto's re-election as prime minister in October 1993. In December of that year she travelled to the PRC and DPRK. Although she publicly denied it subsequent events indicate that she was seeking, among other things, increased cooperation in the development of a ballistic missiles. Specifically, a system capable of striking strategic targets within India. Immediately after leaving Beijing, Bhutto travelled to P'yongyang on 30 December to request similar assistance from the DPRK.

The PRC leadership, painfully aware of the problems it was encountering with its continued efforts in providing M-11 components and systems to Pakistan, apparently had no desire to further damage its relations with the US and other Asian countries by directly providing Pakistan with an IRBM. Yet it had a long standing and intimate defense relationship with Pakistan and the Bhutto family. To satisfy the requirements for deniability, yet still support what it perceived as legitimate Pakistani defense concerns, a program was developed in which the PRC would continue to finance the establishment and expansion of a ballistic missile infrastructure within Pakistan and provide the soft technology and engineering for a new Pakistani IRBM which would eventually be called the Ghauri. The DPRK would serve as a conduit for a portion of the PRC assistance and provide hardware and components from its No-dong and Taep'o-dong programs. The PRC is also believed to have agreed to provide components in those areas which the DPRK was still struggling (e.g., guidance).

[snip]

Choe's is believed to have finalized the agreement to provide Pakistan with either major components (possibly fuel tanks and rocket engines) from the No-dong or Taep'o-dong programs or a modified No-dong missile. The agreed upon items were to be produced by the Fourth Machine Industry Bureau of the 2nd Economic Committee and a majority are believed to have been delivered to the Khan Research Laboratories in Spring of the following year by the Changgwang Sinyong Corporation (a.k.a., North Korea Mining Development Trading Corporation/Bureau).

[snip]

In addition to missile related components and technologies the DPRK has provided Pakistan with the launcher utilized for the Ghauri test, and may be assisting in developing its own transporter-erector-launchers (TEL) or mobile erector launchers. The Ghauri launcher, like that for the DPRK's No-dong, is an evolutionary development of the standard Russian MAZ-543TLM used for the R-17 Scud. The model provided to Pakistan is probably the same used for the No-dong.

[snip]

During March 1996, the DPRK cargo ship Chonsung was detained by Taiwanese authorities for improperly declaring 15 tonnes (200 barrels) of ammonia perchlorate (a key component in solid rocket fuels) which was being shipped to Pakistan's Space and Upper Atmosphere Research Commission (SUPARCO).

SOURCE

​

Thats why you don't need that many tests.

More than FAS, i'd rely on CIA

 

[Manas]

Thats why you don't need that many tests.

Also they hardly do user trial tests to check the production quality . That's probably since they don't produce those missile in Pakistan they don't need do regular tests.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Actually pakistan rocket program is much older---dates back to the 60's---

 

[saiyan0321]

Those who have high hope for pakistans's WMDs to be used as offence deterrence against india will surely feel disappointment in the end as they do with result of Indo-pak cricket, hockey or boxing duels.

ok so you think that india has the capability to stop a missile attack from pakistan which is right next door. dont you think you are the one who is being delusional. our missile system i will admit has never gotten as much funding as your but still has been able to catch up to yours. do you seriously think that if GOD forbid missiles are used against each other india would go unscathed. that is being dellusional my friend as the power of both nations would destroy each other. we have both in terms of trying to get the upper hand have become so powerful any full scale war could be the end for both countries and anyone whether pakistani or indian who thinks otherwise will be in a big disappointment. my advise is dont underestimate your enemy you can i mean you r just some guy sitting and can always comfort yourself in thinking that our missile system is useless despite all the successful tests shown to the world but i am sure you military brass will disagree with you.

Indo-pak cricket, hockey or boxing duels.

seriously i could bring the stats but i would think someone who has over a thousand post and has spend a year over here would give a better answer then boxing duels

Also they hardly do user trial tests to check the production quality . That's probably since they don't produce those missile in Pakistan they don't need do regular tests.

first you say that we steal designs now you say we dont even produce them plz give source to this unfounded claim you r making just bcz our army doesnt show it on tv every trial of a single missile doesnt mean its not tested. at one point you say we spend on making missile on the other you say we dont make them why not make a single statement rather then making a fool of yourself and plz give the source where you say pakistan does not produce missiles

 

[Manas]

@saiyan0321

I never said your WMDs are useless and pose no threat to us. All i said your weapon systems are of rudimentary capability and unreliable compared to indian WMDs. Your chinese designed nukes are low yields weapons and accuracy of missiles are poor. Still they are WMDs ,even 10KT nuke of going down in Noida instead of the original target New Delhi would be a very serious proposition playing in the minds of indian policy makers everytime they ponder about military action against pakistan.

Look,You don't have the industrial infrastructure for mass production of missiles in pakistan. There is a reason why pakistan claming the have acquired missiles with striking distance in 2000-3000km , don't have a SLV of your own.

Your missiles looks strikingly similar to Chinese and NK missiles ,because they are made in China and NK. And you don't need to test them frequently,well can't a test missile without our knowledge , simply 'casue they are alreay tested systems.

 

[Rig Vedic]

All i said your weapon systems are of rudimentary capability and unreliable compared to indian WMDs.

But the Chinese could always hand them ready made weapons, so we have to prepare on that basis.

 

[saiyan0321]

Look,You don't have the industrial infrastructure for mass production of missiles in pakistan. There is a reason why pakistan claming the have acquired missiles with striking distance in 2000-3000km , don't have a SLV of your own.

Your missiles looks strikingly similar to Chinese and NK missiles ,because they are made in China and NK. And you don't need to test them frequently,well can't a test missile without our knowledge , simply 'casue they are alreay tested systems.

i am going to ask again how is it possible to have missiles and not produce them.

There is a reason why pakistan claming the have acquired missiles with striking distance in 2000-3000km , don't have a SLV of your own.

we tested shaheen and showed to the world what would make you believe a hit at your place. i could say the same thing that agni v claims to hit 5000 km but its not true do you know why bcz it was tested and reported like our missiles. whta basis and sources do you say that we only claim to have such a missile

Your missiles looks strikingly similar to Chinese and NK missiles

at one point you say they are made in china then you say our looks similar. it can only look similar if we are making the missile right or are you saying they add differences just to fool the world.

your chinese designed nukes are low yields weapons and accuracy of missiles are poor. Still they are WMDs ,even 10KT nuke of going down in Noida instead of the original target New Delhi would be a very serious proposition playing in the minds of indian policy makers everytime they ponder about military action against pakistan.

plz explain where its chinese designed and even if it is lets say we stole or took the tech from them are you saying their missile capability is inferior too bcz if you r saying that then it means you r delusional dude.

All i said your weapon systems are of rudimentary capability and unreliable compared to indian WMDs.

how can you say that have you seen both in action what do you base this on any sources any claim even if there is a missile tech gap then its very small pal very small with anyone getting the upper hand. dont make statements without sources

Look,You don't have the industrial infrastructure for mass production of missiles in pakistan

so what are suparco and nescom and other research facilities and plz dont say they are fake.

I never said your WMDs are useless and pose no threat to us

read your post

But the Chinese could always hand them ready made weapons, so we have to prepare on that basis.

again statements like this proof proof. we have missile research going own if you think china helped us in every missile then you r very much mistaken

 

[Manas]

But the Chinese could always hand them ready made weapons, so we have to prepare on that basis.

That has been the cause of concern . And the need behind the genesis of Agni - 5 .

 

[Manas]

@saiyan0321

You have good but rudimentary chinese and NK version missiles assembled in Pakistan that targets out cities. So we are worried about them. Thats why we are building ABM systems. See we aren't delusional at all . But that doesn't dismiss the fact that you are a borrowed missile power with very limited indigenous R&D demonstrated from lack of a space program or nuke tech used for peaceful applications.