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Why does our Navy fail so horribly?

My narration is purely on historic performance of PN in light of the subject of the thread. Going forward, I have explicitly explained in my earlier posts in various other threads, the need for increasing the strength of subs from the present five to atleast twelve boats. Therefore, I agree with you observation on the usefulness of subs as a sea denial instrument.

As far as the battle groups are concerned, yes they have an advatage of projecting air power over long ranges. At the same time, one must appreciate that the use of carrier based airpower was only used sucessfully when there was no offensive capabiltiy of the enemy against them. Predominantly, US has used this tool effectively against weak opposition. UK had a tough time trying to project airpower over Falklands and lost a number of surface units despite operating on the extreme edge of the mission ranges of Argentine a/c.

There are pros and cons of all types of weapons systems. At the height of the cold war, the biggest threat to US Carrier groups were from long range land based supersonic Backfire bombers of Soviet Union and not the subs. They had calculated that their ASW screens would in time detect and eliminate the sub surface threat. The game changer was the supersonic platform and the cruise missile (ALCM) carried by the Backfires. Enough a/c launched against a carrier group would eventually overwhelm the defensive screens -- that was the calculation by the Americans. I am sure you know this quite well -- I mean the cold war;-)

It all boils down to how desparate the war time situation is for Pakistan in the event of a Naval Blockade by Indian carrier group(s). To mitigate this risk PN has done the following:

1. Activating Gawader as an alternative commerical port (There is no stopping PN to base assets there in the time of hostilities). And to hedge against a Naval blockade of both Karachi and Port Qaism.
2. Activate Ormara as the second Naval Base and start housing some of the subs there.
3. Induct airlaunched long range Anti ship missiles (Harpoons)
4. Increase the range of its strike a/c with the induction of Air refueling Tankers.
5. Increase airborne survailance with the induction of Chinese AWACS (specifically based in Southern Command)
6. Plan to induct air launched cruise missiles (Underway)
7. Increase the patrol range of its subs (Also equipped with Harpoons) with AiP.

Steps have been taken -- these are more long term in nature and might not suit the time frame or appetite of our younger audience on this forum -- hence this thread.

As far as your question, yes I do recollect "Brasstacks" and also know fully what dividend India got out of it after spending millions of dollars on deploying assets that far out to the sea, for such a long time.
 
Too dictate the pattern of any war you need a STRONG NAVY AND STRONG AIR FORCE.

PAKISTAN vis ve INDIA both these elements are their achilles heals.

THEY ARE STRONG ON LAND ARMY able to hold its own AGAINST INDIAN ARMY.

But the NAVY will lose terribly almost certain blockade and attack on pak industrial & strategic coast targets.

AIR FORCE will be stretched to far tryinmg to contain IAF and keep PAF supporting its LAND ARMY to divetr resources to the SEA.

Ultimately Pak will always be effected by BUDGET constraints.
 
its all about economy... once pakistans political system gains strength, and WoT issues simmer down, pakistan's economy will make a comeback and then you can expect to see growth in all military branches including the navy. Close co-operation between china and PN will lead to good cost effective systems which will provide ample power projection for PN in the future.

IN's aspirations are different hence should not be compared in this discussion.
 
you have left out the value of submarines, as they have the ultimate sea denial capability which may be needed to decrease the chance of an IN blockade in case of a war, since 90% of pakistan's supplies come from that single sea route.

Besides, IN have shown no hesitation to take such an action. this can be seen in 2001 when their ships were on standby near karachi, when war was in the air. Also the same thing happened during operation brasstacks (1987) when both Vikrant and viraat battlegroups were on standby near Karachi. (Hope u know about brasstacks)
post by Shinigami

can any member verify this or throw more light upon the matter
 
Although we can't ignore the value of surface combatants but the reality is that the future of the Navies lies in Submarines and I am sure that PN is also looking towards it. I think they should materialize the deal of 6 Qing Class Submarines with China and look towards future for Joint Venture in SSBM and SSK class submarines. For Now I prefer that we should procure (license produced):
7 Qing Class Submarines
5 Type-54As / Type-54Bs
11 FACs

Say anything about it.
 
While we are on the subject of Subs. the Qing is more of a strategic launch platfrom for PN given its displacement. From that angle, even if we have three boats, we can complete the Nuclear Triad.

We desperately need to induct longer range subs. Even the French option should be exercised with in country build of the subs. As a stop gap we should get into an agreement with France on continuing with the production of A90B/P?

Once again I would caution the folks on this forum -- all of this is being discussed in the context of regional navies and not USN. Taking on USN would require a different approach and would be based upon a do or die situaiton or what would be the cost we can extract of USN before we capitulate. Let us not get carried away here.
 
Any one whos from PN or have great know how about Navy. Please Reply.
I have heard that many Navies in the world are totally looking towards Submarines as future machines as they can do mine hunting roles as well as mine laying roles, anti surface, anti aircraft and anti submarine roles, more over they are able to deploy special forces as well but this can now also be done through air which is quick as well as safe too.
So does PN also planning for R&D with Chinese on SSKs and SSBNs, the fleet should look like this small but potent:
21 SSKs
11 SSBNs
7 Auxiliary Ships for Support(Fuel & Logistics)
21 Armed Patrol Boats like MRTP-33
21 Armed Hover Crafts
and other surface vehicles too
 
Do you have any idea of the cost of an SSBN?? It is US$ 4+ billion. That would be US$ 44 Billion for an 11 boat order. The annual maintenance cost is US$ 110 million per sub.

We can build smaller SSBN's but can not cut down the cost to anything below 2.5 billion per pop. Do we have the money? Do we seen any such opportuntiy in the foreseeable future to dish out 22 billion dollars or spend 110 million doallars per annum on each boat for its maintenance? I do not think so.

The above costs do not include the armament/missiles, systems etc but only the cost of the hull and power plant.

The Qing class SSK might be the answer for our need to give sea legs to our nuclear detante and complete the triad.
 
Do you have any idea of the cost of an SSBN?? It is US$ 4+ billion. That would be US$ 44 Billion for an 11 boat order. The annual maintenance cost is US$ 110 million per sub.

We can build smaller SSBN's but can not cut down the cost to anything below 2.5 billion per pop. Do we have the money? Do we seen any such opportuntiy in the foreseeable future to dish out 22 billion dollars or spend 110 million doallars per annum on each boat for its maintenance? I do not think so.

The above costs do not include the armament/missiles, systems etc but only the cost of the hull and power plant.

The Qing class SSK might be the answer for our need to give sea legs to our nuclear detante and complete the triad.

What about surface ships, Doesn't PN need surface ships to have a strong footing, PN doctrine seems to float around Subs
 
Do you have any idea of the cost of an SSBN?? It is US$ 4+ billion. That would be US$ 44 Billion for an 11 boat order. The annual maintenance cost is US$ 110 million per sub.

We can build smaller SSBN's but can not cut down the cost to anything below 2.5 billion per pop. Do we have the money? Do we seen any such opportuntiy in the foreseeable future to dish out 22 billion dollars or spend 110 million doallars per annum on each boat for its maintenance? I do not think so.


The above costs do not include the armament/missiles, systems etc but only the cost of the hull and power plant.

The Qing class SSK might be the answer for our need to give sea legs to our nuclear detante and complete the triad.

I am quite sure that the Chinese ones are much cheaper in terms of everything. But still if PN can't afford them then just go for 21 SSKs of differnent version till 2022. But:
11 FACs
16 Frigates
11 Corvettes
are fessible till 2022
 
I am quite sure that the Chinese ones are much cheaper in terms of everything. But still if PN can't afford them then just go for 21 SSKs of differnent version till 2022. But:
11 FACs
16 Frigates
11 Corvettes
are fessible till 2022

please try to understands you are not being realistic here . first you have no money to purchase any of the above items(your navy budget is pathetic) second you cant have a infusion of so many weapons platforms without have any infrastructure to support them , that will take a decade if not longer to build. plus where is the money coming from for the infra?
 
please try to understands you are not being realistic here . first you have no money to purchase any of the above items(your navy budget is pathetic) second you cant have a infusion of so many weapons platforms without have any infrastructure to support them , that will take a decade if not longer to build. plus where is the money coming from for the infra?
Sorry Sir, But that's not your problem our country have and had faced many difficulties but Insha Allah we will soon see the bright path of growth very soon. So don't worry about that. I just let you know that 7 SSBNs and 21 SSKs are expensive but not impossible.
Take Care
Allah Hafiz
 
Sorry Sir, But that's not your problem our country have and had faced many difficulties but Insha Allah we will soon see the bright path of growth very soon. So don't worry about that. I just let you know that 7 SSBNs and 21 SSKs are expensive but not impossible.
Take Care
Allah Hafiz

bhaijaan !!! its not a point of it being my problem or not . you are on an international forum . if you make a statement you will be called on it . :)
 
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