United Hindu Concern claims targeted killings orchestrated by AL

[haviZsultan]

You gave me some numbers. I am just interested to know what numbers you believe happened w.r.t Bangladesh/East Pakistan in 1971.

Most information is greatly biased about the incident. The winners usually write history in their own words.

State of sporadic decline? HAHA. Losing more money in a year than Pakistan has ever made in 5 may be a huge calamity to a Pakistan size economy. We shrug it off, elect a new govt and keep growing at a healthy clip....muslims included.

You are very boastful of your countries growth when only a few years ago you were the sick man of the subcontinent

We don't care what a Pakistani says Muslims in India feel or think....we see and experience the reality every day for ourselves with our Muslim neighbours, friends and colleagues. Thats why a Muslim has made it to the highest office of India (president) a number of times. Can the same be said for non-Muslim in Pakistan? So its funny when you try to compare us with you. We certainly didnt barbarically slaughter hundreds of thousands, if not millions (lets see which number you choose) people in pretty much cold blood in just the span of a few months like Pakistan did in 1971. You see we can wash ourselves of any alleged blood on our hands much quicker....because we are responsible for magnitudes lower number of deaths than Pakistan. We will not stop to listen to your concerns....because they come from a hypocrite basically.

Indians slaughtered Muslims in thousands if not millions. This information however is kept away from the media. The muslims that died outside the AP high courts in Hyderabad were not even considered or their deaths recorded. There were many incidents like Gujarat in Indian occupied parts.

I go by the evidence. I remember what the 90s were like regarding Kashmir and what the situation is like now on the ground. I have been there and seen it and talked to the Kashmiris themselves. A person like you can never visit Srinagar directly so you have to rely on whatever is fed to you by PTV and your govt/society which wants to deflect as much attention away from its own failings on almost every issue of real importance (development, education, jobs)

Obfuscation is all it is. You must not have talked to Kashmiri muslims. I have never come across a muslim Kashmiri who calls himself Indian proudly.

And dont compare with Israel. Israel does not see Palestine territories as an integral part of Israel. They are there to occupy to maintain security and to bargain away the land in any lasting peace settlement. India sees Kashmir as a complete integral part of India, we will not barter any piece of land away from it (like Pakistan did with China) and we will only take back what is not in our hands in the future eventually if Pakistan does not change its attitude by using the huge advantage that is accelerating in our favour now and will continue. Its really that simple.

Occupying lands and calling them your own is your habit. Lad claimed in partition years by Hindu fanatics from muslim families has still not been returned to the muslim families. This is exactly what is happening in Kashmir as India occupied it and is now claiming it as its own.

You can't take crap with you other than the clothes on your back. Those that dont integrate but want to stay get to keep their ghettoes....and they will be liquidated down the line at some moment if they ever openly espouse separatism or sedition. Its not because they are muslim, this applies to any community. Now if they know how to keep quiet, keep their views to themselves and behind closed doors and just grumble here and there....we dont have a problem. If they send their kids to Pakistan to marry and settle there.....thats great news for India.....its fewer potential problems for India down the road.

These lands regardless belong to Muslims-Pakistanis.

Likewise we accept any Hindus from Pakistan that seek sanctuary in India (and there are a good number more of them compared to Muslims leaving to Pak from India). But whats interesting is there is no huge flood of muslims leaving India to Pakistan. Its like when Musharaff got shocked when Delhi Jama Masjid Imam told him to focus on Pakistan and not Indian muslims (when Musharraf asked what Pakistan can do to help them)...that Indian muslims will deal with their problems and dont need Pakistan to help or direct.

Yet there are muslims who have directly asked for Pakistan's help in getting us independence.

Pakistan basically has no sustained credibility with Indian muslims as a whole other than a few fringe elements like your alleged relatives that you keep harping on about. Pakistan violent actions w.r.t Bangladesh in 1971 and its clear hand behind stoking Kashmir blood spilling in 1989 onwards just settles what Pakistan is in Indian muslims mind....a vicious desperado who's creation is a mistake but one that needs appropriate handling over time. Now add to this how Pakistan's relations are with fellow muslim countries like Afghanistan and Iran....and few Indian muslims see a true "ummah" character within Pakistan. I mean look at constant targetting of Shia minority in Pakistan. Its very upsetting/concerning to any Shia in India....and then he/she automatically thanks being in India.

You mentioned Shias. Well clearly you have followed a divide and rule policy. Some shias vote for BJP foolishly giving air to the divide and rule policies India has designed. Shias are doing far better in Pakistan than any muslim. Changezi who died in Torkham was a shia hazara. Divide and rule will not work anymore.

Thats why India's situation w.r.t its muslims is very stable and peaceful overall....and people like you only have Pakistan forums to vent your frustration about it.

Gujarat and Mumbai were not peaceful. Kashmir is not peaceful.

Good keep saying that to them (foolish loyal Indian muslims) to drive them away further from your kind and take as many middle ground muslims as possible with them (basically make them choose a side).

We are one body. A muslim from that side or this side is the same. Some are ideologically confused but they have been under Indian sphere of influence for such a long time-watching your channels, reading your newspapers, thinking your line of thought so its obvious some will become Indianized. A large part of us know however how our ancestors fought for Pakistan.

We want Muslims to get segregated more and more in their ideology so the relevant quarters can be isolated and picked off with ease when we deem it to be necessary. You are doing a good job for us, keep it going.

You are not essentially one people and you never will be, its why loyal Indian muslims even exist in the first place.

Keep trying this divide and rule. There will always be muslims in Lucknow supporting Pakistan.

Muslims in general know that they should never ignite something like Godhra, Gujarat. If you burn a train down (with women and children in it on top of the people that you were targetting), you are not going to be received with love and compassion by the angry mob that forms. Its pretty simple common sense.

Godhra is just an excuse for hindutvas to murder muslims. You blamed us for Samjhauta and Jama Masjid too and look how that turned out. The reality is in everyone's faces of how Hindutva's are involved in actual violence.

So as long as Muslims stay peaceful and learn to live under a non-Muslim majority...there is not going to be a problem. As soon as they decide they want to give some slap, they will receive 10 thumps in return till they remember the common sense again. Its too bad the slaps and thumps will be generally misdirected and involve many innocents on both sides....but thats the nature of undereducated, underdeveloped societies.....that element will change with time.....but not the common sense part that muslims will have to continue to live by....whatever their personal leanings may be.

Muslims don't use violence unless the Pakistani state demands it or situation of muslims is so bad that they have to.

 

[Nilgiri]

You are very boastful of your countries growth when only a few years ago you were the sick man of the subcontinent

Explain? How was India more sick than Pakistan even when we were at our worst? Shall we compare the growth rates when India was sick? Its investment rate maybe? Any economic metric? Name it.

Indians slaughtered Muslims in thousands if not millions. This information however is kept away from the media. The muslims that died outside the AP high courts in Hyderabad were not even considered or their deaths recorded. There were many incidents like Gujarat in Indian occupied parts.

Please have Pakistan raise it up in international fora as a war crime then. Just like your Sartaj Aziz "Dossier" of RAW to the US.

Everyone believes India and Bangladesh without much effort:

https://defence.pk/threads/reflecti...ist-and-freedom-fighter-rehman-sobhan.436296/

So why Pakistan does not even try to put its point of view through anywhere....rather than reactive response/denial to what we say?

Obfuscation is all it is. You must not have talked to Kashmiri muslims. I have never come across a muslim Kashmiri who calls himself Indian proudly.

You have not been to Indian Kashmir (you lot are banned) so how would you know? Selective talking to just Mirpuris from your side does not represent full picture of Kashmiris....whether muslim or not.

These lands regardless belong to Muslims-Pakistanis.

Come get it then. We will take back Hindu land in Pakistan (basically all of Pakistan)....it is part of Bharata-varsh after all.

Be careful what you try to do. Or just leave bygones be bygones and look to improving your own condition before making fantasies.....otherwise we will leave you even further in the dust and make things you will not enjoy a reality down the road without much effort.

Yet there are muslims who have directly asked for Pakistan's help in getting us independence.

Good please aid them so they can be liquidated. Win win. We want these wretcheds to stick their heads out above the trenches so we can pick them off.....hope Pakistan helps us in this endeavour to make us stronger. As long as they stay hidden and quiet....it also helps India as well. Whatever you do only helps India

You mentioned Shias. Well clearly you have followed a divide and rule policy. Some shias vote for BJP foolishly giving air to the divide and rule policies India has designed. Shias are doing far better in Pakistan than any muslim. Changezi who died in Torkham was a shia hazara. Divide and rule will not work anymore.

So you can quote your martyrs from some potentially oppressed group....but as soon as Indians do it....its propaganda or those Muslims (Even Kashmiri ones) are traitors/sellouts to Muslim cause. Double standards and hypocrisy, Pakistan is full of it.

Don't think the Shia lamentations in Gilgit-Baltistan and occupied Mirpur have not reached Indian ears....nor don't think that Shias in India dont see the monthly carnage that goes on in rest of Pakistan...with Shia weddings, processions, gatherings all being targetted by your entrenched fanatics. They already are saying they are the next in line after Ahmadis in Pakistan.....whereas in India Ahmadis are recognized however they want to be under the law. Muslim-muslim violence is very limited in India.....I suppose thats what a non-Muslim majority does....it adds a significant buffer so one sect of Islam cannot start oppressing the others through its dominance in an area.

Gujarat and Mumbai were not peaceful. Kashmir is not peaceful.

Add them all up and they are a small tiny percentage of East Pakistan and lately Karachi, Baluchistan and Durrand line area. It is all relative. Hence Pakistan's ranking in failed state index. Just look at the violence ranking.....its almost the same as many warlord afflicted African countries.

We are one body. A muslim from that side or this side is the same. Some are ideologically confused but they have been under Indian sphere of influence for such a long time-watching your channels, reading your newspapers, thinking your line of thought so its obvious some will become Indianized. A large part of us know however how our ancestors fought for Pakistan

Yes keep saying whatever you want to believe. Indian muslims for the most part don't care. They are getting on with making a life and name for themselves. Azim Premji alone has a net worth of what 11.4 million Pakistanis make in a year.

Thats why you will never define what a "large part of us" means. Its some ridiculously tiny number and you know it deep down. The last remaining strongholds will fall in the current and next decade as more of their kids go to school, madrasas are continually reformed and a unified civil code is brought into force. Whoever opposes such long term integration will be exposed and get deal with by fellow Indian muslims.....others dont even need to intervene.

Keep trying this divide and rule. There will always be muslims in Lucknow supporting Pakistan.

Sure even if there are just 1 or 2, your statement will be true....it does not bother us since we care about the overall numbers (which are fine) and continued isolation....all the while exposing of such remaining seditious elements so they can be further ghettoised and dealt with at the opportune time.

Godhra is just an excuse for hindutvas to murder muslims. You blamed us for Samjhauta and Jama Masjid too and look how that turned out. The reality is in everyone's faces of how Hindutva's are involved in actual violence.

Samjhauta was turned into a political drama by the previous administration. The truth is coming out now, it was the same muslim fanatic elements. We will let the supreme court handle it with the new evidence (the former accused have all been released already).

The reality is in the WORLD's face of how islamic terror is involved in actual violence....again and again. Everyone agrees Hindus are only reacting to Islamic fanatic elements....which they have every right to, just like the rest of non-muslims worldwide. So muslims have to adapt, keep their heads down and integrate.....otherwise they will be targetted especially if they start supporting sharia and terrorism. The world is uniting against such backward medieval thinking found in various Islamic communities....its not hard to guess who the victors will be.

Muslims don't use violence unless the Pakistani state demands it or situation of muslims is so bad that they have to.

Please preach that to the world and see if anyone believes you. Even your all weather friend China bans fasting for many of its Muslims during Ramadan and is against hijab wearing in public areas.....everyone equally hates your backwardness and quick resorting to violence using religion (jihad) as justification. So spare us this "don't use violence" unless crap. You are telling me the Paris attackers had no other choice? Or the orlando shooter? Or the 9/11 hijackers?

There is a reason why US did not inform Pakistan in advance about OBL abbotabad raid....and its the same reason why the paris attacker was able to have sanctuary and refuge for many months afterwards in a muslim community in Belgium (which deliberately hid him and did not inform authorities).

So when India now tells the world about Pakistan sponsored terrorism (a country founded on Islam and which uses the extremism for its foreign policy goals due to its disadvantage in size)....the world no longer ignores it....but sympathies and supports India fully. Its why Pakistan finds itself cut off diplomatically nowadays....it is not going to change. When the Chinese are tired of you to use as a needle for India, they will also abandon you....because no one wants to deal too long-term with this bad vicious baggage that is Pakistan.....Pakistan and its muslims have to change overall for the world to re-engage with you in sustainable and positive way. The first step is realising you got a problem and not justifying it with "unless" and "but" and "only".

But if you don't. It suits India just fine. We will deal with you in the long term...we got lots of time, and we have other priorities to do right now....as much as Pakistan clamours for attention and focus from us.

 

[bluesky]

Overcoming the hate some Bangladeshis have for Pakistan may be difficult. But today most Pakistanis are very retrospective and critical about their role in Bengal in 71 and the preceding years. We have in our history a gaping hole where half the country was sacrificed just for Bhutto's lust for power and Yahya Khan's combativeness.

I know Bengal once believed in a Pakistan, in a land built for Muslims, all muslims of the subcontinent. There were figures so patriotic towards the newly formed Pakistan in Bengal that their patriotism outstripped those of Punjab. Some names of Muslim League leaders include Khwaja Nizamuddin and Fazlul Haq. Even Hindus like Jogindar Nath Mandal stood with the Muslim League. So what changed by 71? The language riots? Agartala? What divided two brothers so brutally?

Weren't both our forefathers on the same page-that a free land was required for muslims of the subcontinent and not a land based on the ethnic group of one people. Because if this was so then Bengal Sindh, Punjab and Balochistan would be formed rather than one Pakistan. Your forefathers trusted and believed in Pakistan and I don't have to be a mullah or enemy of secularism to realize this. I am from a simple Lucknowi family that migrated due to severe oppression to Pakistan. Entire generations of us muslims were butchered to make Pakistan. I cannot forget this. Thus Bengal's division in my heart is the bleakest and saddest chapter in Pakistani history.

It was mostly our fault-west Pakistan's fault but rather than independence shouldn't we have thought of a compromise and punishment of the people involved? As part of Pakistan today at least I believe Yahya Khan Tikka Khan and others would have received punishment-at least stripped of their honors. The division did not let us realize the size of the problem and attrocities our people had done on Bengal including urdu speakers who imposed urdu on Bengalis.

Now India clearly came to Bengals rescue but it had vested interests in mind. It's real purpose was to break the power of Pakistan which unified was untouchable for them. And if it was so eager to stop oppression against Bengalis by West Pakistanis then why does it still after 60 years treat Kashmir with oppressive violent policies. 93000 have died in Kashmir since 89. So the important question is if India was so noble then why does it still treat parts of its territory in the same way we west Pakistanis treated Bengal.

So the sympathy expressed by some members, like Bongbang for India is not understandable. They had their own interests in mind of breaking the only potential muslim superpower rather than sympathy for Bengal and the atrocities we west Pakistanis comitted. They are not the saviors some Bengalis see them to be. Loki is right to mention that Bengal is unfortunately following a policy of 3 things one of which is vengeance which I agree.

I mean how long will it take Bengal to forgive west Pakistanis most of whom did not even know what was going on in Bengal? Will we ever realize that once our forefathers fought for the same Pakistan that Mujib Ur Rehman abandoned?

Also if it comes to attrocities Germans killed east Germans, Congans are still killing Congans, La volencia was common in columbia and Hutu Tutsi massacred each other-probably in much higher proportions than west Pakistanis did in Bengal. None of them have asked for independence but rather a more inclusive leadership.

@bongbang @Al-zakir @mb444 @bluesky @MBI Munshi

There is no way BD people will ever forget what the PA troops did in the eastern wing of Pakistan. We were completely betrayed by a people who were not even that active to bring Pakistan as we did in the east. Please note the following and think yourself as to why we cannot forget those horrendous events of 1971.

1) All-India Muslim League was founded on 30 dec. 1906 at Dhaka. Muslims of Bengal and Bihar were equally oppressed by the local Hindus throughout the British Raj period. The Dhaka meeting was attended by 3,000 Muslim dignitaries from all over India.

2) Among the five Provincial capitals of a united Pakistan, only Bengal had AIML/Muslim chief ministers during British rule under Sher-e-Bangal Fazlul Haq, H.S Suhrawardy and Khawaja Nazimuddin.

3) It was the then chief minister of Bengal, AK Fazlul Haq who declared the 1940 Pakistan Resolution at a AIML conference in Lahore. He was the only AIML CM in the entire India. The Punjabi participants chanted Sher-e-Bangal Zindabad after the proclamation. So, it was the west Pakistanis who bestowed this title to AK Fazlul Haq.

4) AIML fought the 1946 Provincial election in the name of Pakistan. Only Bengal/Calcutta could form an AIML govt. under Suhrawardy. Sindh, Peshwar, Quetta and Punjab could not. Impressive results in Bengal and Punjab (73 seats out od 156) forced the British and Congress to cede to the demand for Pakistan.

5) The sentiment was so sharp in favor of a united Pakistan among the Bangali muslims that a separate entity in the east was unthinkable after 1947. This changed after the military showdown on 26 march, 1971.

6) Read 'My Unfinished Memoir' written by Sk. Mujibur Rahman. He fought for Pakistan Movement intensively under Suhrawardy. Do not blame him for the division of Pakistan.

7) It was General Ayub Khan, the chief of the Punjabi & Pathan dominated military, who was conspiring behind the scene to undo the civilian govts one after another before coming to power himself in 1956.

8) He was a very good administrator, and many development works were initiated by him in the east as well. But, his wrong policies and later those of Yahya Khan/Bhutto led to a military crackdown that are responsible for the bifurcation of Pakistan.

Congo and Tutsi history is different from the 1971 operation in the east. It was a case of killing the completely unarmed, helpless and patriotic civilians by a powerful military with tanks and machine guns. This army operation is solely responsible to initiate the war of independence in east Pakistan. No one ever uttered Pakistan Murdabad before, because of a public backlash. But the hard army crackdown itself resulted in a separation movement.

 

[haviZsultan]

There is no way BD people will ever forget what the PA troops did in the eastern wing of Pakistan. We were completely betrayed by a people who were not even that active to bring Pakistan as we did in the east. Please note the following and think yourself as to why we cannot forget those horrendous events of 1971.

1) All-India Muslim League was founded on 30 dec. 1906 at Dhaka. Muslims of Bengal and Bihar were equally oppressed by the local Hindus throughout the British Raj period. The Dhaka meeting was attended by 3,000 Muslim dignitaries from all over India.

2) Among the five Provincial capitals of a united Pakistan, only Bengal had AIML/Muslim chief ministers during British rule under Sher-e-Bangal Fazlul Haq, H.S Suhrawardy and Khawaja Nazimuddin.

3) It was the then chief minister of Bengal, AK Fazlul Haq who declared the 1940 Pakistan Resolution at a AIML conference in Lahore. He was the only AIML CM in the entire India. The Punjabi participants chanted Sher-e-Bangal Zindabad after the proclamation. So, it was the west Pakistanis who bestowed this title to AK Fazlul Haq.

4) AIML fought the 1946 Provincial election in the name of Pakistan. Only Bengal/Calcutta could form an AIML govt. under Suhrawardy. Sindh, Peshwar, Quetta and Punjab could not. Impressive results in Bengal and Punjab (73 seats out od 156) forced the British and Congress to cede to the demand for Pakistan.

5) The sentiment was so sharp in favor of a united Pakistan among the Bangali muslims that a separate entity in the east was unthinkable after 1947. This changed after the military showdown on 26 march, 1971.

6) Read 'My Unfinished Memoir' written by Sk. Mujibur Rahman. He fought for Pakistan Movement intensively under Suhrawardy. Do not blame him for the division of Pakistan.

7) It was General Ayub Khan, the chief of the Punjabi & Pathan dominated military, who was conspiring behind the scene to undo the civilian govts one after another before coming to power himself in 1956.

8) He was a very good administrator, and many development works were initiated by him in the east as well. But, his wrong policies and later those of Yahya Khan/Bhutto led to a military crackdown that are responsible for the bifurcation of Pakistan.

Congo and Tutsi history is different from the 1971 operation in the east. It was a case of killing the completely unarmed, helpless and patriotic civilians by a powerful military with tanks and machine guns. This army operation is solely responsible to initiate the war of independence in east Pakistan. No one ever uttered Pakistan Murdabad before, because of a public backlash. But the hard army crackdown itself resulted in a separation movement.

You have expressed yourself beautifully. It may be hard forgiving Pakistan for what its citizens did. As I said 71 was the bleakest chapter in Pakistani history. Btw do note that Tutsi history is not irrelevant however. I still believe we could have worked out our differences politically. But again the military operation was our fault and this fault should be taught over and over in Pakistani history books.

If not from the government accept an apology from me. We messed up big time in Bengal.

 

[haviZsultan]

Explain? How was India more sick than Pakistan even when we were at our worst? Shall we compare the growth rates when India was sick? Its investment rate maybe? Any economic metric? Name it.



Please have Pakistan raise it up in international fora as a war crime then. Just like your Sartaj Aziz "Dossier" of RAW to the US.

Everyone believes India and Bangladesh without much effort:

https://defence.pk/threads/reflecti...ist-and-freedom-fighter-rehman-sobhan.436296/

So why Pakistan does not even try to put its point of view through anywhere....rather than reactive response/denial to what we say?



You have not been to Indian Kashmir (you lot are banned) so how would you know? Selective talking to just Mirpuris from your side does not represent full picture of Kashmiris....whether muslim or not.



Come get it then. We will take back Hindu land in Pakistan (basically all of Pakistan)....it is part of Bharata-varsh after all.

Be careful what you try to do. Or just leave bygones be bygones and look to improving your own condition before making fantasies.....otherwise we will leave you even further in the dust and make things you will not enjoy a reality down the road without much effort.



Good please aid them so they can be liquidated. Win win. We want these wretcheds to stick their heads out above the trenches so we can pick them off.....hope Pakistan helps us in this endeavour to make us stronger. As long as they stay hidden and quiet....it also helps India as well. Whatever you do only helps India



So you can quote your martyrs from some potentially oppressed group....but as soon as Indians do it....its propaganda or those Muslims (Even Kashmiri ones) are traitors/sellouts to Muslim cause. Double standards and hypocrisy, Pakistan is full of it.

Don't think the Shia lamentations in Gilgit-Baltistan and occupied Mirpur have not reached Indian ears....nor don't think that Shias in India dont see the monthly carnage that goes on in rest of Pakistan...with Shia weddings, processions, gatherings all being targetted by your entrenched fanatics. They already are saying they are the next in line after Ahmadis in Pakistan.....whereas in India Ahmadis are recognized however they want to be under the law. Muslim-muslim violence is very limited in India.....I suppose thats what a non-Muslim majority does....it adds a significant buffer so one sect of Islam cannot start oppressing the others through its dominance in an area.



Add them all up and they are a small tiny percentage of East Pakistan and lately Karachi, Baluchistan and Durrand line area. It is all relative. Hence Pakistan's ranking in failed state index. Just look at the violence ranking.....its almost the same as many warlord afflicted African countries.



Yes keep saying whatever you want to believe. Indian muslims for the most part don't care. They are getting on with making a life and name for themselves. Azim Premji alone has a net worth of what 11.4 million Pakistanis make in a year.

Thats why you will never define what a "large part of us" means. Its some ridiculously tiny number and you know it deep down. The last remaining strongholds will fall in the current and next decade as more of their kids go to school, madrasas are continually reformed and a unified civil code is brought into force. Whoever opposes such long term integration will be exposed and get deal with by fellow Indian muslims.....others dont even need to intervene.



Sure even if there are just 1 or 2, your statement will be true....it does not bother us since we care about the overall numbers (which are fine) and continued isolation....all the while exposing of such remaining seditious elements so they can be further ghettoised and dealt with at the opportune time.



Samjhauta was turned into a political drama by the previous administration. The truth is coming out now, it was the same muslim fanatic elements. We will let the supreme court handle it with the new evidence (the former accused have all been released already).

The reality is in the WORLD's face of how islamic terror is involved in actual violence....again and again. Everyone agrees Hindus are only reacting to Islamic fanatic elements....which they have every right to, just like the rest of non-muslims worldwide. So muslims have to adapt, keep their heads down and integrate.....otherwise they will be targetted especially if they start supporting sharia and terrorism. The world is uniting against such backward medieval thinking found in various Islamic communities....its not hard to guess who the victors will be.



Please preach that to the world and see if anyone believes you. Even your all weather friend China bans fasting for many of its Muslims during Ramadan and is against hijab wearing in public areas.....everyone equally hates your backwardness and quick resorting to violence using religion (jihad) as justification. So spare us this "don't use violence" unless crap. You are telling me the Paris attackers had no other choice? Or the orlando shooter? Or the 9/11 hijackers?

There is a reason why US did not inform Pakistan in advance about OBL abbotabad raid....and its the same reason why the paris attacker was able to have sanctuary and refuge for many months afterwards in a muslim community in Belgium (which deliberately hid him and did not inform authorities).

So when India now tells the world about Pakistan sponsored terrorism (a country founded on Islam and which uses the extremism for its foreign policy goals due to its disadvantage in size)....the world no longer ignores it....but sympathies and supports India fully. Its why Pakistan finds itself cut off diplomatically nowadays....it is not going to change. When the Chinese are tired of you to use as a needle for India, they will also abandon you....because no one wants to deal too long-term with this bad vicious baggage that is Pakistan.....Pakistan and its muslims have to change overall for the world to re-engage with you in sustainable and positive way. The first step is realising you got a problem and not justifying it with "unless" and "but" and "only".

But if you don't. It suits India just fine. We will deal with you in the long term...we got lots of time, and we have other priorities to do right now....as much as Pakistan clamours for attention and focus from us.

This discussion is pointless and we are digressing from topic, especially since you feel you bringing Pakistan's failures into the question. It is time for Indians to accept that they have brutally treated the muslims and have failed to include them in society as equals. I leave this debate now as the pointless exercise it is.

 

[Bilal9]

You have expressed yourself beautifully. It may be hard forgiving Pakistan for what its citizens did. As I said 71 was the bleakest chapter in Pakistani history. Btw do note that Tutsi history is not irrelevant however. I still believe we could have worked out our differences politically. But again the military operation was our fault and this fault should be taught over and over in Pakistani history books.

If not from the government accept an apology from me. We messed up big time in Bengal.

A grand salute from a Bangladeshi to a Pakistani.

To acknowledge something like this - you have to have a heart like a lion.....

Without going too much OT - we should write this off to the annals of history as a learning lesson and move on.

It was forty five years ago - time to move on.

 

[Nilgiri]

This discussion is pointless and we are digressing from topic, especially since you feel you bringing Pakistan's failures into the question. It is time for Indians to accept that they have brutally treated the muslims and have failed to include them in society as equals. I leave this debate now as the pointless exercise it is.

I never talk in absolutes, I wont even talk like that for Pakistan which is my enemy overall.

By this I mean I can never say "all Indians" have "brutally treated" all muslims like you are implying....just like I would not say the reverse either.

Some have, some haven't. This I would accept. The numbers involved, prevalence and the perception of the level is dependent on our bias a lot of the time.....but overall the evidence shows that the Muslim minorities in India and non-Muslim minorities in Pakistan are able to live generally in peace (if you consider their sizes)..from there one can debate which one is in a better condition using the evidence one may have and then agree to disagree and move on.

Likewise it is the same with "failure" of "inclusion". Where does this failure lie exactly? Is it is a failure if even one Muslim is not integrated into India....or 1% of them? 10%? 25%...or is it a simple 50% limit? How do we measure this inclusion strictly neutrally? These are all big questions.....but they are there and we cannot just again talk in absolutes because Islam or any other religion in India is a very diverse existence both culturally and socio-economically.

 

[Zabaniyah]

Overcoming the hate some Bangladeshis have for Pakistan may be difficult. But today most Pakistanis are very retrospective and critical about their role in Bengal in 71 and the preceding years. We have in our history a gaping hole where half the country was sacrificed just for Bhutto's lust for power and Yahya Khan's combativeness.

I know Bengal once believed in a Pakistan, in a land built for Muslims, all muslims of the subcontinent. There were figures so patriotic towards the newly formed Pakistan in Bengal that their patriotism outstripped those of Punjab. Some names of Muslim League leaders include Khwaja Nizamuddin and Fazlul Haq. Even Hindus like Jogindar Nath Mandal stood with the Muslim League. So what changed by 71? The language riots? Agartala? What divided two brothers so brutally?

Weren't both our forefathers on the same page-that a free land was required for muslims of the subcontinent and not a land based on the ethnic group of one people. Because if this was so then Bengal Sindh, Punjab and Balochistan would be formed rather than one Pakistan. Your forefathers trusted and believed in Pakistan and I don't have to be a mullah or enemy of secularism to realize this. I am from a simple Lucknowi family that migrated due to severe oppression to Pakistan. Entire generations of us muslims were butchered to make Pakistan. I cannot forget this. Thus Bengal's division in my heart is the bleakest and saddest chapter in Pakistani history.

It was mostly our fault-west Pakistan's fault but rather than independence shouldn't we have thought of a compromise and punishment of the people involved? As part of Pakistan today at least I believe Yahya Khan Tikka Khan and others would have received punishment-at least stripped of their honors. The division did not let us realize the size of the problem and attrocities our people had done on Bengal including urdu speakers who imposed urdu on Bengalis.

Now India clearly came to Bengals rescue but it had vested interests in mind. It's real purpose was to break the power of Pakistan which unified was untouchable for them. And if it was so eager to stop oppression against Bengalis by West Pakistanis then why does it still after 60 years treat Kashmir with oppressive violent policies. 93000 have died in Kashmir since 89. So the important question is if India was so noble then why does it still treat parts of its territory in the same way we west Pakistanis treated Bengal.

So the sympathy expressed by some members, like Bongbang for India is not understandable. They had their own interests in mind of breaking the only potential muslim superpower rather than sympathy for Bengal and the atrocities we west Pakistanis comitted. They are not the saviors some Bengalis see them to be. Loki is right to mention that Bengal is unfortunately following a policy of 3 things one of which is vengeance which I agree.

I mean how long will it take Bengal to forgive west Pakistanis most of whom did not even know what was going on in Bengal? Will we ever realize that once our forefathers fought for the same Pakistan that Mujib Ur Rehman abandoned?

Also if it comes to attrocities Germans killed east Germans, Congans are still killing Congans, La volencia was common in columbia and Hutu Tutsi massacred each other-probably in much higher proportions than west Pakistanis did in Bengal. None of them have asked for independence but rather a more inclusive leadership.

@bongbang @Al-zakir @mb444 @bluesky @MBI Munshi

A Hindu supporting the Muslim League? Interesting, I didn't know this. During the height of the civil war, many of the targeted were Hindus, and it is important that we both acknowledge it. I also find it ludicrous to blame a single party for all the horrors of a civil war where multiple parties were involved. It's just like those clowns who are involved in the current civil war in Syria with all their propaganda. I've come to realize that any country that exemplifies its own boogeymen are the ones most susceptible to corruption where corrupt, likely populist and authoritarian-like individuals creep toward power. We have been seeing this a lot lately - An alarming development.

Though, I do not believe that language was a prime issue, the language riots were however a tipping point. The Indians have been envisioning the disintegration of Pakistan long before.

Anyhow, the past doesn't help determine the future, we can only learn from them. What I find sad is that this country gone through a lot of political instability and uncertainty during the past years through the three V's for this government to remain in power for a second consecutive term.

We have insufficient FDI inflows, a sluggish local investment environment, a steady increase in non-performing loans in banks, overcrowded prisons, lack of free speech, poor accountability, a lack of sense of security among citizens (not just among Hindus) and a terrible media coverage abroad. The environment of trust, accountability and confidence is lacking here. The environment has been that way ever since the coup of '07. Not much has improved since then with regards to confidence.

Most of those Jammies are in prison right now. When we put both actual and alleged extremists behind bars, and get a negative portrayal in the 'Western mainstream media' as a country infested with extremists over a bunch of isolated incidents...........that hurts.....really hurts. I'm sure your country has a similar predicament.

 

[haviZsultan]

A Hindu supporting the Muslim League? Interesting, I didn't know this. During the height of the civil war, many of the targeted were Hindus, and it is important that we both acknowledge it. I also find it ludicrous to blame a single party for all the horrors of a civil war where multiple parties were involved. It's just like those clowns who are involved in the current civil war in Syria with all their propaganda. I've come to realize that any country that exemplifies its own boogeymen are the ones most susceptible to corruption where corrupt, likely populist and authoritarian-like individuals creep toward power. We have been seeing this a lot lately - An alarming development.

Though, I do not believe that language was a prime issue, the language riots were however a tipping point. The Indians have been envisioning the disintegration of Pakistan long before.

Anyhow, the past doesn't help determine the future, we can only learn from them. What I find sad is that this country gone through a lot of political instability and uncertainty during the past years through the three V's for this government to remain in power for a second consecutive term.

We have insufficient FDI inflows, a sluggish local investment environment, a steady increase in non-performing loans in banks, overcrowded prisons, lack of free speech, poor accountability, a lack of sense of security among citizens (not just among Hindus) and a terrible media coverage abroad. The environment of trust, accountability and confidence is lacking here. The environment has been that way ever since the coup of '07. Not much has improved since then with regards to confidence.

Most of those Jammies are in prison right now. When we put both actual and alleged extremists behind bars, and get a negative portrayal in the 'Western mainstream media' as a country infested with extremists over a bunch of isolated incidents...........that hurts.....really hurts. I'm sure your country has a similar predicament.

Yes I agree. We need rehash of history in Pakistan. Joginder Nath Mandal was not the only member of a minority community supporting Jinnah's secular and equal vision. I agree that Hindus bore the brunt of west Pakistani brutality. Even in books I read in Pakistan's education system the complete blame for the 71 division was put on "Hindus who did not want Pakistan from the beggining" Jogindar Nath Mandal's support of Jinnah destroys this illusion. But Pakistanis are like the Indians. They are unwilling to give minorities equal rights and destroy history to perpetuate their lies about minority communities. In my eyes Jinnah made Pakistan for not just muslims but all religions.

However the way I see the language issue is that the urdu was implemented as the national tongue as it was supposed to be a neutral tongue. Thats why jinnah supported it and no ethnic group in Pakistan could claim it was ignored by supporting anothers language. If Bengali was made the national tongue it would either be logical to give pashto punjabi sindhi and balochi the same status or no language used by any ethnic group national status. If it was done for one language it would be unfair.

For the urdu issue the very fact however that an ethnic group (urdu speakers) formed and their identity revolved around the speaking of urdu destroyed the ultimate purpose of urdu being the national language which was supposed to be neutral and no language of an ethnic group. Jinnah never wanted the urdu speakers like us to form a separate ethnic group and gave the speech "For godsake give up provincialism..." ironically us same urdu speakers who now cry oppression refused to accept Bengalis as equal citizens and imposed urdu on Bengal. Admitting this will be hard for my ethnic group but unless we revise our history we are bound to repeat it.Such harsh criticisms should be given by each and every ethnic group and I do not say this because I want to merge as a pashtun-pashtun generals took part in 71 too.

That is why I view the oppression of east Pakistanis, west Pakistans refusal to accept the way they voted and brute military force when strong diplomacy was needed as the reasons of the partition of Pakistan, not the language-true some activists of the Bengali movement were killed but that was again brute force applied by west Pakistans rather than imposing the language.. I can say sorry but by 71 my relatives had not even entered the current boundaries of the moth eaten Pakistan we know so I don't know how my apology would count. We escaped when things got hot in Lucknow where I am originally from though I was lucky to be born in Islamabad. I am not one of the Pakistanis born during the time when we had people who did what they did in 71, butchering Bengalis just to get their own leader leading them. They should apologize and Yahya, Tikka and Niazi should hang. Still accept my apology.

Anyway you might understand why it is harsh on Pakistanis to be demanding an apology. Many weren't even born at that time and most had no idea what the state institutions were doing in Bengal. Sorry brother. Really as Jinnah made Pakistan for all of us I wish every day that I could go back in history and change what happened in 71 and the preceding years. It is an insult to Jinnah that half our land broke away.

 

[Zabaniyah]

Yes I agree. We need rehash of history in Pakistan. Joginder Nath Mandal was not the only member of a minority community supporting Jinnah's secular and equal vision. I agree that Hindus bore the brunt of west Pakistani brutality. Even in books I read in Pakistan's education system the complete blame for the 71 division was put on "Hindus who did not want Pakistan from the beggining" Jogindar Nath Mandal's support of Jinnah destroys this illusion. But Pakistanis are like the Indians. They are unwilling to give minorities equal rights and destroy history to perpetuate their lies about minority communities. In my eyes Jinnah made Pakistan for not just muslims but all religions.

However the way I see the language issue is that the urdu was implemented as the national tongue as it was supposed to be a neutral tongue. Thats why jinnah supported it and no ethnic group in Pakistan could claim it was ignored by supporting anothers language. If Bengali was made the national tongue it would either be logical to give pashto punjabi sindhi and balochi the same status or no language used by any ethnic group national status. If it was done for one language it would be unfair.

For the urdu issue the very fact however that an ethnic group (urdu speakers) formed and their identity revolved around the speaking of urdu destroyed the ultimate purpose of urdu being the national language which was supposed to be neutral and no language of an ethnic group. Jinnah never wanted the urdu speakers like us to form a separate ethnic group and gave the speech "For godsake give up provincialism..." ironically us same urdu speakers who now cry oppression refused to accept Bengalis as equal citizens and imposed urdu on Bengal. Admitting this will be hard for my ethnic group but unless we revise our history we are bound to repeat it.Such harsh criticisms should be given by each and every ethnic group and I do not say this because I want to merge as a pashtun-pashtun generals took part in 71 too.

That is why I view the oppression of east Pakistanis, west Pakistans refusal to accept the way they voted and brute military force when strong diplomacy was needed as the reasons of the partition of Pakistan, not the language-true some activists of the Bengali movement were killed but that was again brute force applied by west Pakistans rather than imposing the language.. I can say sorry but by 71 my relatives had not even entered the current boundaries of the moth eaten Pakistan we know so I don't know how my apology would count. We escaped when things got hot in Lucknow where I am originally from though I was lucky to be born in Islamabad. I am not one of the Pakistanis born during the time when we had people who did what they did in 71, butchering Bengalis just to get their own leader leading them. They should apologize and Yahya, Tikka and Niazi should hang. Still accept my apology.

Anyway you might understand why it is harsh on Pakistanis to be demanding an apology. Many weren't even born at that time and most had no idea what the state institutions were doing in Bengal. Sorry brother. Really as Jinnah made Pakistan for all of us I wish every day that I could go back in history and change what happened in 71 and the preceding years. It is an insult to Jinnah that half our land broke away.

Let's ask ourselves. What was Jinnah like? Let's see. He was a modern man, highly Westernized and one might say liberal. He wasn't at all a hard line conservative. And it is highly probable that he wore that topi only once. And yet what made him be a part of Muslim League away from Congress? He was a secular man, and in my view, he wanted a modern and progressive state for all. It's a shame that he didn't live long enough to see the country. No doubt he wouldn't want to see the state Pakistan is in right now.

As for language, very few Bengalis spoke Urdu. As for my view, whichever works. If we had to communicate in English, so be it. If the Bengalis had to learn, so be it too! The Hindus however were quite instrumental in the language movement, which was why I was surprised to hear that Hindus supported the ML. Okay fine, we have fought for our language. But what of the results? Even in the 21st century, I still see people pulling rickshaws and telagaris in the nation's capital, hordes of them. Lack of technical education and grooming had become very much a problem and likely last several generations. Among the rich and educated, every rich person in Bangladesh has a home abroad and capital flight is common (it was very high in the 2013 period) - That doesn't bode well for business. There is also a matter of trust and confidence in the country's overall environment. That is their result. And that is why I say that the language issue isn't the most important matter. The rights of citizens however do matter.

As for an apology, sure I understand. Patriotism is important for any country. I'd like to think of it as something between China/ROK vs. Japan. The pains and the humiliation the Imperial Japanese soldiers committed against the hapless Chinese and Korean citizens is....legendary. So much so, people don't even talk them. It is natural for countries to demand apology from Japan. Japan apologizes but its not good enough! And the whole cycle goes on. And yet, they do business and with highly progressive and advanced societies. If anyone says Bangladesh is okay in this category, then chances are that they are dumber than a pile of bricks.

See, when parties (both foreign and local) avail themselves from such relationships, that is when problems begin to occur. We may not see it now, but they will create serious problems in the long term. That is unless something major happens.