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To Indians and followers of Hindu religion

None of them of course have mentioned the tremendous benefits of Islamic rule in Hind. The economic, military, and social prosperity that many Muslim rulers help to usher in. The advancement in laws and order over the large land and large population was also remarkable.

They of course are a defeated people. In fact, many Hindu preachers and leaders during the Gujarat genocide remarked "After a thousand years it is our turn to to bat". They reject the Muslim superiority over India, they cannot tolerate it, for them it is too much.


As much as they dislike Islam and Muslim rulers, leave it up to the Hindustanis to make big bucks off of famous Muslim made buildings like Taj Mahal.


what economic propserity were people coming from the deserts of central asia going to give us?

What military security,we had already defeated Alexander and all?the enemy is ruling,so where is the outside threat?

Advancement in law and order?the whole land mass was hardly one unit and how do we know that law and order was good in the muslim rule and bad before that?

Big bucks of Taj Mahal?As great as it is,we make a lot more money in IT and outsourcing rather than tourists visiting Taj Mahal.
 
@Joe shearer those dates I obtained from Wiki I am no historian so would not bank and say they are 100% accurate.
 
You should not judge the history in terms of good or bad. its just history.
 
I see invaders such as muhammad bin qasim, nadir shah, babur etc equivalent to modern day terrorists who wanted nothing more than to loot.
However those who actually stayed back (and I'm not justifying what they did) have done a good job in creating a mixture of Hindu and islamic culture, artifacts, art, painting, food etc. Nothing more

Raja Dahir was a plunderer who plundered muslims and kept hostage muslim men, women and children. Muhammad bin Qasim was the savior, Hindu Rajas made attacks on Muslim empires like SULTAN SUBUKTYGIN KHAN(father of mahmood Ghaznavi). So it was a tit for tat for your Hindu rajas from Mahmood Ghaznavi , Nadir shah, Ahmed shah abdali etc.
 
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Raja Dahir was a plunderer who plundered muslims and kept hostage muslim men, women and children. Muhammad bin Qasim was the savior, Hindu Rajas made attacks on Muslim empires like SULTAN SUBUKYGIN KHAN(father of mahmood Ghaznavi). So it was a tit for tat for your Hindu rajas from Mahmood Ghaznavi , Nadir shah, Ahmed shah abdali etc.

If you take looters of temples, destroyer of other faiths, killers of some 100,000 + hindus for the sake of them being kafir as your heroes then I am sorry my friend no one can help you.
 
@Joe shearer those dates I obtained from Wiki I am no historian so would not bank and say they are 100% accurate.

I am sorry, what was that?

I cited your posts thrice in post 121, once in 123. The first post of yours quoted by me in 121 was full of dates. Is that what you are referring to?

Actually, I found the dates quite reasonable; I have no problem with them.

Did I say something critical?:what:
 
I am sorry, what was that?

I cited your posts thrice in post 121, once in 123. The first post of yours quoted by me in 121 was full of dates. Is that what you are referring to?

Actually, I found the dates quite reasonable; I have no problem with them.

Did I say something critical?:what:


Yep it was in regards to the dates Sir i just got them off Wiki to be honest im not sure how accurate they are.
 
While I see no problem with the intent of original poster.. I never understood the way many people see here the history in religious aspects irrespective of religions. While I see many Hindus see pride in kingdom of Guptas, Mauryas, Cholas, Chalukyas, Marathas etc they tend to forget to analyze that expansion/saving of Kingdoms were part of their era...hence every king and their kingdom need to be analyzed based on their deeds done in general..

While whatever logic by Muslims supporting Ghouri, Ghazanvi, Aurangzeb etc are presented.. there are no justifications to support that by any societies.. while there were other rulers like Akbar, Tipu, Sher Shah Suri etc whose works for society gave many cultural/administrative things to India van not be ignored...

There were many Hindu kings and their period those who didn't do anything for society like bindusaar, Ashoka(pre kalinga war) etc
 
you forgot akbar

First of all India was NOT under Muslim rule for 1000 years..I guess you are not including South-India,Marathas,Sikhs and Rajputs in your INDIA..

Regarding Muhammad Bin Qasim,Mahmood Ghaznavi and Muhammad Ghouri..
They were looters who had a great fighting force at their disposal who plundered the Hindukush region and this was a normal thing those days..

If i have to choose the most powerful King in the Indian subcontinent , I would choose Chandragupta Mourya , Ashok , Porus (i know many people here believe that Alexandar defeated Porus but what i have come to know after extensive research ,thats not the truth.) , Shershah Suri , Hyder Ali,Tipu Sultan and Maharaja Ranjeet singh..

including hyder ali is laughable , he was repeatedly defeated by maratha peshwa madhavrao , and survived only because the peshwa died due to tuberculosis at young age of 28.

and like typical north indians you conveniently forgot marathis like shivaji and bajirao.:eek::eek:

raj thackeray is only right .....you north indians dont like us marathis :angry::angry:
 
Aw geez... Not at ALL... this is a western over simplification. Babur was not a Mongol. His mother claimed descent from Chengez Khan, but his father was Timurid.

look at babars portraits.......he looked like a mongol.....not like a turk......chinky eyes and short nose :rolleyes::rolleyes:
 
I beg to differ..Mughals did not like the people of indian subcontinent (that includes Muslims )..For reference you can read BABARNAAMA..They settled here because they had no other option.

yeah .....babar was kicked out of central asia by shaibani khan ,the uzbek ruler .....babar repeatedly pined for samarkand , but never was able to hold it.
 
look at babars portraits.......he looked like a mongol.....not like a turk......chinky eyes and short nose :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Actually the Turks of Central Asia look like that e.g Uzbek's. Turks and Mongol are closely related to each other. Babur had both Turkic and Mongol ancestry.
 
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There is an interesting sub-theme - one of several - running under the surface in this thread, and that is about the origins of the Mughal emperors, of the family itself. We call them Mughals in daily parlance, which is a term standing for the short, bandy-legged, tribesmen from Mongolia who swept across China and Central Asia and formed one of history's best known empires of the steppes (there were others earlier, like the Scythians, the Goths, the Huns, in our part of the world the Kushana, the White Huns,...).

Why these Turks got called Mughals or Mongols, and the mysteries roiling around them are among the most interesting topics brought up here.

First, about the Turks.

There is a great deal of curiousity about where they sprang from, apparently fully armoured and horsed, around 600 AD, and thereafter effortlessly dominated 'their' world.

This world consisted of the Central Asian steppes first, radiating out from the Altai Mountains, where they had first taken shape from the mingling of Siberian tribes with the Mongolians, covering present-day Xinjiang, known before its Chinese conquest as East Turkestan, the slopes of the Tien Shan and the Takla Makan desert, through most of the dominion of the ancient Scythians, nomad pastoralists probably speaking east Iranian, the coast of the Black Sea, where the Golden Horde ruled for fabled years, and down through a complete linguistic domination of Anatolia without affecting its genetic make-up into a large number of pockets in Europe.

They belonged to several language sub-sections, all forms of Turkish, of which the most well-known is the Oghuz, the western branch, from which both the Seljuq and the Ottoman imperial dynasties originated. We can catch up with them after Chengiz' wars, as they identified themselves with the all-conquering Khan.

Actually the Turks of Central Asia look like that e.g Uzbek's. Turks and Mongol are closely related to each other. Babur had both Turkic and Mongol ancestry.

1. Uzbeks are in fact Turks, formed into their Uzbek identity in three phases: first during the Mongolian conquests of Genghis Khan himself, when the floating population of central Asia still keeping to pastoral ways of life largely escaped, but the city dwellers, very largely Iranian, were slaughtered in great numbers; second, during the even more bloody invasions of Timur, in which practically the last remnants of Iranians in Central Asian cities were wiped out, and the first traces of Mongols slowly adapting to the way of living of their neighbours and near-kinsmen the Turks and calling themselves Uzbek began to be seen, among others, as the Uzbegs; last, during the consolidation of these loose alliances and conversions under Shaybani Khan, Khan of the Uzbeks.

2. The relationship of Turk and Mongol was an asymmetric one. Mongols converted to Turkish ways of life; I have not read of the opposite movement.

Turks themselves were part-Mongol, part-Siberian; thereafter, as they were pushed west by the original Mongols, they imposed their language more and more on the local inhabitants, until the east-Iranian speaking steppelands became Turkish speaking. Genetically, because of the large-scale massacres that took place in the east, the population in the region of Trans-oxiana is very largely influenced by Turk genes, the population further west showed less and less Turkish influence and genetic admixture.

3. Babar was a Barlas Turk speaking the Chaghatai language (I keep forgetting which was which, but this is the proper one, I am sure). They were Turks, and so part-descended in antiquity before 600 AD from the Mongols themselves; in addition, it was the practice of Babar's grandfather's grandfather, the Emir Timur, to acknowledge the supremacy of the Chaghatai Khan, who had been left command of that region under the dispensation following Genghis' death, and to seek for himself nothing more than an Emir's title.

So Babar was purely a Turk, if that is a pure blood, of the Barlas tribe, speaking the Chaghatai dialect spoken in the area controlled by the Chaghatai Khan.

look at babars portraits.......he looked like a mongol.....not like a turk......chinky eyes and short nose :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Indeed.

the only possible responsible to this outstanding ethnography by what his own words reveal to be an expert of a high level, can be :rolleyes::rolleyes:[

Mughals= mongol fathers+turk mothers.

Good. One Indian expert is immediately matched by a Pakistani expert. Thank Heavens for these felicities.

Muslims or all Humans :D

Timur was a descendant of Genghiz Khan

I am pleasantly surprised at the wording.

Timur was NOT a descendant of Genghis Khan. His closest link was to take into his harem a woman married to the Chaghatai Khan.

Turk/Turkic is a lingustic term like Indo-European. Turks can be Caucasoid in Anantolia and Mongoloid in other parts or mix in Central Asia.. How many Anatolians have Turkic genes from Central asia? It people united by common language.. I can tell the difference from an Anatolian and a Central Asian Turk..

Timurid claims he is a descendent of Genghis Khan, just like Babur. I am not doubting that.

That analysis is fairly accurate. Apparently in the same manner as the Aryan languages took over north and most of east India, the Turkic languages took over most of the steppes. None of that affected the ethnicity of the Turkish speakers; such an effect happened in the east of their steppe domains, where the numbers murdered were huge and the genetic make-up shifted.

As pointed out before, Timur was not descended from Genghis, but claimed to be upholding his kingdom.

Ultimately we all claim ancestry from Adam, but the Timurid line is distinct and separate from the Mongols.

I have no such claims, and am not sure on whose behalf you are making them.

To the extent that they are not Mongol, yes, your statement is on target.

Thought Mongols were from central asia like Genghis khan and co

They were, and are. Genghis Khan and Co., by an incredible coincidence, were also Mongols. :-D

Sorry, couldn't help myself. It was a bad attack of humour.

Timur also claims ancestory from Genghis Khan. Mughal is Perisan for Mongol..

Babur came from the fragmented part of the Mongol empire, Chagatai Khanate..

Covered extensively earlier. :-D

The Turks from Central Asia, which the Mughals are relatet are mixed with Mongols which invaded Turkic Areas under Dshingis Khan. Later the Mongols in Turkic Areas also convetred to Islam and mixed with Turkic Populations of Central Asia.

Timur had Mongol Ancestor, but he spoke a Turkic Language called "Chagatai". Chagatai was widespreadet in Central Asia. Durring the first Time in Mughal Empire Chagatai were an executive Language.

I could decipher and understand the second paragraph and it is consistent with whatever I have read.

Aw geez... Not at ALL... this is a western over simplification. Babur was not a Mongol. His mother claimed descent from Chengez Khan, but his father was Timurid.

An eastern misunderstanding and full of technical errors :p:

Babar was not a Mongol. He was a turk. Turks were part Mongol, so the first sentence needs re-writing. Timur himself was a Turkicised Mongol of the Barlas tribe.
 
Yep it was in regards to the dates Sir i just got them off Wiki to be honest im not sure how accurate they are.

@Yeti,

Your repeated references to 'dates' made me extremely nervous - had I inadvertently said something I shouldn't have, and not noticed? - and I went back and looked at everything very carefully.

It's all right actually. Nothing to worry about; just an elderly man's quibbles.

You mentioned one date, 1206 to 1707, which I kind of agreed with, but not enthusiastically, not fully, not whole-heartedly, if you get what I mean. The reason was that while I agreed with the 1206, in spite of the thread originator having stated clearly that he wanted that considered, I wasn't happy with the 1707; both my reactions surprised myself actually.

The first date was Iltutmish; he was the first to rule from within India, although a deft debater would point out that a larger view of south Asia would include Afghanistan, and therefore would include both Ghor and Ghazni, would force consideration of both Ghurid and Ghaznavid, and would push things back a couple of centuries.

A parochial view would even say that bin Qasim should be taken into consideration, even though his contribution to history was so much more ephemeral, precisely because a parochial view was being taken, and the old British historical perspective of Hindu India, Muslim India and British India were being adopted. This is how I was taught, by the way, as this is how the demarcations are done in Calcutta University even today. Personally, I would prefer to take a non-parochial view based on social, economic and political development and analyses, and would seek rather more meaningful dates.

However, as it happens, I agreed with one of your sets of dates partially; that pair of dates was the closest fit that I found in your various listings.

The problem was with the second date, again a date proposed and validated by the British: this was the death of Aurangzeb i n 1707, and I do think that putting everything after that event into British history is a bit of cheek at best, considering development of the country, misleading as well.

I would personally prefer a date of 1857, as the Mughal Empire lingered on till then, and it was unfinished business. That is what I meant by a discrepancy of 150 years, not that your date-pairs were wrong, but that my preference of the second date in this sequence was one 150 years later.

Sorry for the unnecessary hullabaloo. This happens when you make the mistake of letting elderly people ride their hobby horses.:blah:
 
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