The new missile? The so called "modified Harpoon".

[Comet]

stupid allegation! If a country can modify navigation, seeker technology and can add more fuel and explosive to a missel (as USA said in case of Harpoon) then that country can also develop a new missel and that exactly pakistan did.

Very Right!

 

[TaimiKhan]

I just realized one more thing, that in any kind of precision guided weapon the main thing is the electronics, the guidance kit which make the missile reach its target, identify it & then with a loud BANG hit it. The missile body & propulsion is not a difficult task. So the Americans should have thought before accusing, that if Pakistan can modify a Harpoon missile into hitting land based target, which means the guidance kit has been tampered with & Pakistan has given the Harpoon some new kind of guidance kit or capability to navigate on land, then why can't Pakistan employ the same guidance kit to its more better & deadlier cruise missiles Babur & Raad.

Harpoon which PN got had just Active Radars as seekers, which don't work in land attack mode, meaning the guidance system would have been totally removed & new guidance system composing of GPS, TERCOM, DSMAC, INS etc would have been used. Which makes this harpoon into a totally new missile as there is no alteration to the existing guidance of active radar seeker, which are only employed in AshM, A2A or SAM missiles, not in Land attack role as it doesn't works in land attack role.

So if Pakistan removed the active radar guidance of Harpoon & fitted it with a new guidance on just a 200KG warhead missile, why don't we then use this guidance on the 500KG warhead indigenous cruise missiles.

I do hope the above analysis clearly can illustrate the pig faced American stupidity & can prove that altering Harpoon has no usefulness for us.

And the C-series Chinese AshM which Pakistan got & may be assembling locally have land attack capability. So why need Harpoon of 80s, which is clearly inferior to the latest Chinese ones.

 

[mughaljee]

I just realized one more thing, that in any kind of precision guided weapon the main thing is the electronics, the guidance kit which make the missile reach its target, identify it & then with a loud BANG hit it.

nice point brother "taimikhan" and one more thing , why we are not working thing like this one, totally our Pak made ?

 

[gogbot]

Only thing that happen here is that Pakistan Might of broken Us law by modifying their missiles.
Its not a big deal as the us is not likely to take action.

that's the only reason people are making a big deal out of it.

 

[muse]

Once again, the Harpoon missile has not been modified or altered in any way -- however; Pakistani missileers have developed a series of innovations that has not only enabled more technologically advanced warheads but indeed the innovations include the technology of the delivery systems themselves.

These innovations are of no, read ZERO interest to the US, but these innovations have elicited interests in some quarters who imagine that their interests are those of the US. Inside the US, analysts and policy makers who similarly construe US interests are using the issue to defeat other US analysts and policy makers who seek a US independent of those in far away places who imagine that the strength of the US is their own to employ as they see fit.

Some Pakistanis are seemingly playing into the hands of those who seek to demonstrate that Pakistan are in effect both untrustworthy and duplicitous, these should restrain themselves and think before they write on these boards.

 

[wild peace]

Pakistan develops new cruise missile – NYT can’t bring themselves to believing it
The Artical By TechLahore on 30 aug 2009

http://techlahore.files.wordpress.co...pg?w=296&h=280
Pakistan's Indigenously developed Babar Cruise Missile. This is now being integrated with Pakistan's Naval Ships.

This really got my goat! A friend just pointed out that the NYT has published a highly accusatory article about Pakistan’s latest ship launched cruise missile tests. The basic thrust of the story is that Pakistan has developed a new missile which was recently tested, but not officially announced. US officials ”leaked” the news to the New York Times (gotta love those leaks!!), stating that what was tested was most likely an “unauthorized” modification of a Harpoon missile. These are the very same Harpoons President Reagan had delivered to his comrade, that staunchest of staunch allies, President Zia of Pakistan in the early 1980s.

Of course, in typical NYT style when it comes to articles about Pakistan, the accusation is not justified with even a shred of evidence beyond the “leak”. But why do they need proof, I ask? I mean it’s not like those brown skinned idiotic Pakistanis are capable of inventing anything? Right? I mean it’s not like they’ve developed nuclear weapons, IRBMs, fighter aircraft, UAVs, tanks of other sophisticated military gear?!

So, though I want very much to tell the NYT where they can stuff their nonsense, instead, let me attempt to reason through this. In order for the story to make sense, the basic premise of modifying Harpoons has to at least be justified with a legitimate goal or need the Pakistani military has. For why else would they perform the modification? So, let’s first look at what the Harpoon is. It’s a sea and air launched anti-ship missile with a maximum range of between 100-300km depending on the platform it is launched from. The payload it carries is non-nuclear – it is simply designed to take out a ship. Payload capability is around 450lbs, which is really not sufficient to carry a nuclear weapon. If you wanted to increase range, it would likely come at the cost of the payload anyway, thus further reducing the 450lbs down to 250 or 300lbs.

The allegation, then, is that
a) the Harpoon missile has been modified to take out land targets and
b) that the P-3C Orion maritime patrol aircraft has been modified to carry out land attack missions. I am sure the discerning amongst my readership familiar with military issues will be rolling on the floor, consumed by laughter by now. But for those still able to sit straight and read, let me continue with my disection of this insidious and ridiculous allegation.

Now, as the idiots at the NYT should know, Pakistan has already developed its own cruise missiles, Raa’d and Babar. These are air launched and ground launched respectively. These have been shown on TV multiple times being launched from Mirage jets, fired from mobile launchers etc. The external design and form of both these missiles is completely different to the Harpoon. Their payload capacity is larger than the Harpoon’s, their guidance system is more modern and accurate, their range is greater and so on and so forth. In sum, there is absolutely no connection between these missiles and the Harpoon. They are in fact, better across multiple points of comparison, and of course, are also nuclear capable, unlike the Harpoons.

The Raa’d has been mated with Mach 2 capable Mirages and is now being integrated with Pakistan’s new fighter, the JF-17. The missile can be launched from a stand-off distance of almost 500km and employs more sophisticated guidance than the Harpoon. Why would Pakistan want to attack land targets with a slow, bulky aircraft like the P-3, firing shorter range Harpoon missiles, when it’s air force already has almost 175 Mirage aircraft with Raa’d cruise missiles and recently added in-flight refuelling capability? It makes no bloody sense.

The Pakistani Raa’d Air Launched Cruise Missile being tested from a Mach 2 Mirage jet

So, where is the rationale? What would Pakistan gain from this? Why would we – with a limited inventory of 165 Harpoons – modify a weapon system completely unsuited to land attack in line with NYT’s toxic insinuations? The Air Weapons Complex, NDC and other weapons labs in Pakistan have bigger fish to fry.

It is, in fact, quite amusing, that buried deep inside the article, a researcher from Janes Defence Weekly, a premier defence publication, is quoted as saying:

“They’re beyond the need to reverse-engineer old U.S. kit,” Mr. Hewson said in a telephone interview. “They’re more sophisticated than that.”
http://techlahore.files.wordpress.co...pg?w=300&h=197
The Air Weapons Complex at Kamra has added in-flight refuelling capability to the Mirage fleet. The refuelling probe is visible to the left of the cockpit.

Exactly. When the M1A1 failed field trials in Bahawalpur, we built our own Al-Khalid tank. When the F-16s were embargoed, we developed the JF-17. When we were sanctioned on account of the nuclear program, we completed not only weaponization but also delivery capabilities. And now when the Predator is being denied for anti-terror operations, you will see Pakistani scientists and engineers develop and deploy a UCAV rapidly.

It would perhaps be a more productive use of their time if the NYT and the unnamed “US officials” who were the source of this “leak” would learn a thing or two about missiles – and even more importantly, about good old fashioned common sense. It would serve them better the next time they want to start spewing such bunkum. I will assume that this story resulted from a lack of education rather than a desire to sabotage Pakistan and create difficulties for it. Since we are close allies, that would just be ridiculous… wouldn’t it?

 

[TaimiKhan]

nice point brother "taimikhan" and one more thing , why we are not working thing like this one, totally our Pak made ?

Becoz bro, making such a technology indigenous from scratch takes lot of time, research, money, infrastructure & manpower. But Pakistan has the luxury to get such technologies from China or any other country willing to give & then improve them & make it better to the level it suits best, just like the missile program. As i said Harpoon missile had an active radar seeker which is of no use in land attack role, if PN did modify it, though very unlikely, the whole guidance system would either be replaced with a new one or the existing guidance is modified with the new technology with which it can attack land targets if the existing American guidance system has space for addition.

The Latest Chinese AshM C-Series are better then the old Harpoons we had, which can do the land attack role by just getting a different guidance seeker, as per the role. The Chinese have developed different kind of seekers & the missiles seeker can be changed as per the mission. The rumored C-602 & C-802 both can be used in the role of AshM or Land Attack roles.

So this story is absolutely absurd looking at the already technology we have in the form of Chinese missiles & Babur & Ra'ad cruise missiles.

 

[mjnaushad]

I just watched that Indian news youtube link. How much more propaganda can indian media do. I never saw a single news in Pakistani channel creating so much hate for India. And they are like using words " Threat to india " and "It will be used against india" and nobody talked about Pakistani denial or asking for inspection to US.

 

[gambit]

I just realized one more thing, that in any kind of precision guided weapon the main thing is the electronics, the guidance kit which make the missile reach its target, identify it & then with a loud BANG hit it. The missile body & propulsion is not a difficult task. So the Americans should have thought before accusing, that if Pakistan can modify a Harpoon missile into hitting land based target, which means the guidance kit has been tampered with & Pakistan has given the Harpoon some new kind of guidance kit or capability to navigate on land, then why can't Pakistan employ the same guidance kit to its more better & deadlier cruise missiles Babur & Raad.

Harpoon which PN got had just Active Radars as seekers, which don't work in land attack mode, meaning the guidance system would have been totally removed & new guidance system composing of GPS, TERCOM, DSMAC, INS etc would have been used. Which makes this harpoon into a totally new missile as there is no alteration to the existing guidance of active radar seeker, which are only employed in AshM, A2A or SAM missiles, not in Land attack role as it doesn't works in land attack role.

So if Pakistan removed the active radar guidance of Harpoon & fitted it with a new guidance on just a 200KG warhead missile, why don't we then use this guidance on the 500KG warhead indigenous cruise missiles.

Please...Seriously...Please do avoid making THAT kind of nonsensical statements. Radar, navigation and guidance are distinct entities and can operate independently of each other. Active radar seekers are fully capable of operating over land as over water. If anything, water has unique multi-path propagation issues that make over water target detection more problematic than over land. I explained that issue elsewhere on this forum. Do look it up.

I do hope the above analysis clearly can illustrate the pig faced American stupidity & can prove that altering Harpoon has no usefulness for us.

As someone who has relevant experience in avionics and field weapons testing that involved incorporation of radar, navigation and guidance, I see nothing in the above to qualify as 'analysis'.

Now here is my two drachmas on the issue...

If you know where you are going, then how to get there is 'navigation'. If you do not know where you are going but is determined to travel anyway, then the mode is 'guidance' for whenever you encounter obstacles that may impede your progress. For an anti-ship missile, the missile does not know where it is going at all. It is launched in the general direction where some ships are supposed to be. All the time it is in flight, its radar may be in constant search mode with wide sweep angles. But the moment it detect a target, its radar bypasses track mode and immediately switches to targeting mode due to severe time constraints.

So keep this in mind...Navigation and Guidance are NOT the same thing even though the two are usually incorporated to work together in a package.

So how can Pakistan modify the Harpoon to become a land target weapon? Increase flight altitude to reduce or if the altitude is high enough, eliminate water related multi-paths propagation issues for the radar. This does not really help navigation or guidance much, only to reduce targeting burden for the radar system. Land features also create multi-paths propagation but not as severe as over water. This would involve tampering with the flight control system of the missile. Is this within Pakistan's engineering capability? Of course it is if we are to believe Pakistan is fully capable of building jet fighters.

Again...Navigation and Guidance are NOT the same thing even though the two are usually incorporated to work together in a package.

Increased flight altitude also relieve the missile the burden of terrain related issues such as: Should the missile have terrain following (TF) or avoidance (TA) or both? Remember that water is relatively featureless compare to land so the original avionics had minimum algorithms for the radar to compensate other than for Douglas Sea State...

Douglas Sea Scale - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Douglas Sea Scale is a scale which measures the height of the waves and also measures the swell of the sea. The scale is very simple to follow. The Douglas Sea Scale is expressed in one of 10 degrees.

Above a certain altitude and most radar altimeter systems will not register even the highest sea scale.

Now all one has to do is launch a Harpoon towards the general direction of where some targets is supposed to be. But if Pakistan does not install terrain compensation avionics into these secretly modified Harpoons, then Pakistan will have to accept the risk that in the event of a launch towards the general direction of wherever, the missile could impact a hill or mountain if said hill or mountain is higher than its flight altitude.

Another modification that does not involve in-depth technicalities is by limiting the amount of fuel for the missile to travel. Major land targets are usually immobile. If Pakistan know for %99.999 certain where a target is, all Pakistan has to do is calculate the amount of fuel required at such-and-so flight altitude, remove the unneeded fuel quantity, then once the missile is over the general area, its radar seeker will immediately home in on the largest radar echo it find. That echo could be from a tool shed or a nuclear cooling dome for all we know. It is similar to an artillery shoot where the shooter does not know what he will hit. An artillery shot is a high parabolic arc where it is very unlikely that the shell encounter a hill or mountain along the way. For this modified Harpoon missile, the distance is in the hundreds of km between launch and target points compared to far less for the artillery shot.

Merely increasing flight altitude would make this modified Harpoon similar to the WW II German V-1s and look how that primitive weapon terrorized the Brits.

And the C-series Chinese AshM which Pakistan got & may be assembling locally have land attack capability. So why need Harpoon of 80s, which is clearly inferior to the latest Chinese ones.

Assuming that the Chinese crap is better than US junk...Are you aware that you have just given the world a very good reason for Pakistan to do the simple modification that I speculated? In a war against India, these inferior and modified Harpoons would be the first expendables.

 

[Awesome]

Let's not suppose. Its been weeks since this came out and so far no official person has backed this story. Heck NYT doesn't quote anybody either, just makes dumb claims.

Let's give it a rest. On to bigger and better things...