The fiction of the Ideology of Pakistan: YLH

[VCheng]

Are you sure Jinnah's Pakistan is acceptable to you ?? You don't have to remove Islam from the constitution to create Jinnah's Pakistan. The 1951 Libyan Constitution is a perfect example of what Jinnah wanted for Pakistan

What effect does the Objectives Resolution have on what you say above?

 

[M. Sarmad]

What effect does the Objectives Resolution have on what you say above?

Objectives Resolution was a perfect antithesis of Jinnah's vision .... the Objectives Resolution identified religious minorities separately and made religion 'the business of the state', Jinnah had said there would be no minorities in Pakistan and that religion was a personal matter and not the business of the state.... It was the turning point that changed the course of our history

 

[VCheng]

Objectives Resolution was a perfect antithesis of Jinnah's vision, it was the turning point that changed the course of our history

And as long as it remains in force, there can be no meaningful change of direction.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

If you take Islam out of Pakistan, then there would be no need of partitioning.

There would still be a need for partition - one just has to look at the Hindutva hate-mongering being spread by the BJP and associated entities in India today.

There is a distinction between a 'majority Muslim nation where the rights of ALL of its residents/citizens are protected' and an 'Islamic Nation'.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

https://dailytimes.com.pk/329072/the-fiction-of-the-ideology-of-pakistan/

On the Higher Education Commission’s data base, one finds two PhD theses on Jinnah, one discussing his leadership skills and the other his brief time as the Governor General of Pakistan. Both are quite mediocre, badly researched and based on literature review of only a piddling subsection of the biographies on Mr Jinnah. It would seem that PhD on Jinnah is unofficially banned in Pakistan.

There is a very good reason for it and I only discovered it once I started researching my second book on the life of Mr Jinnah, which is a detailed biography of our founding father to be published by an international publisher. Since this was a very serious undertaking, I spent the last several months going through the great man’s speeches and letters right from his days in Lincoln’s Inn to his dying day.

The answer to why the committed secularist, Indian Nationalist and the Best Ambassador of Hindu Muslim Unity turned into an apostle of Muslim Nationalism is there in that primary record for those who want to actually research it. It also contains conclusive answers to what kind of state Jinnah wanted and what his ideas were with respect to citizenship, constitution and organisation of the state. No the answer cannot be found in snippets and out of context quotes but you have to see the documents in a continuity as a lawyer would in the process of due diligence. The reason why PhDs on Jinnah are actively discouraged is because any honest perusal of the record would bury the fiction of the ideology of Pakistan as it is taught in Pakistani schools, colleges and universities. This ignorance and sheer dishonesty is not limited to Pakistan based professors and PhD scholars. Many a professor emeritus of political science who apparently taught at European Universities also suffer from this delusion that they can comment on history without looking at primary source record.

This legal fiction called the ideology of Pakistan has made it into our constitutional oaths but any attempts to get the courts or the parliament to define what it means inevitably fail. Ideology of Pakistan means essentially what General Ziaul Haq thought it was which is that Pakistan was created as an ideological Islamic state. Misquotes, fabricated quotes and quotes out of context are taken to prove this position and meanings are extracted from them which had nothing to do with the circumstances that led to the partition of India and the resultant twin Dominions that replaced British India as successor states. It has been invented to control constitutional democracy in Pakistan and give unelected institutions a whip to beat up elected ones from time to time.

It certainly has nothing to do with Jinnah, whose one major consistent theme was the unfettered march of humanity — something that he harked back to throughout his life in a multitude of his speeches. He did not believe for example that any one generation could bind the next for all times to come. This was the essence of Jinnah’s political thought — that nothing is static in politics and that the march of humanity will not be thwarted. A militarised Pakistani state at odds with its neighbour and non-identical fraternal twin was not what Jinnah had in mind. The mutual hatred and constant interference in each other’s affairs was not Jinnah’s idea of India post partition. This was not Jinnah’s idea of a Pakistani state.

A modern democratic state does not need an ideology of any kind to exist. Pakistan has to be what the people of Pakistan decide in consonance with Pakistan’s international obligations. It cannot be a shibboleth or an outmoded idea of national identity that can hold a country of 210 million people together. It is service delivery, economics, and constitutional rights. You cannot continue to impose this fiction of ideology of Pakistan on the state indefinitely, just as you cannot go on jailing legislators as was the case with Mohsin Dawar and Ali Wazir, both gentlemen who I have huge disagreements but who are the elected representatives of the people. To treat them as they were treated in Peshawar recently is the defeat of reason, logic and power of persuasion. If you are going to drive people to desperation, you will force them into roles that they have so far abjured. By adopting Constitutional method of elections and democracy, Dawar and Wazir were putting their faith in the state to mature and finally become a democracy. By denying them their liberty you are undermining their freedom.

The powers that be in Pakistan need to rethink their hackneyed narrative and instead think of history, ideology and identity holistically, informed by real history and facts. No one can undo a country that has nuclear weapons, except its own people. Do not alienate our own people for god’s sake. Bury this fiction of the ideology of Pakistan and instead focus on making Pakistan a progressive and liberal state. Nothing will serve our people and indeed our religion better than a Pakistan that is at peace within and without, at home and abroad. This can be the only ideology that Pakistan can truly have because everything else is necessarily a personal choice and the personal faith of an individual. I did not say it, the founding father did. Time to follow to what he actually said instead of concocting a historical fiction that has no roots in reality.

Regards

Pakistanis are a different race to indians, we have a different culture, we have a different heritage to modern day indians, and we have an Islamic ethos which indians don't. Pakistan being a different country to india is just as natural as Germany being a different nation to Nigeria.

 

[I.R.A]

they do it because they see minorities being persecuted in Muslim states, in the name of Islam. Instead of blaming them, you should blame those who are actually responsible for that interpretation and implementation of Islam which leads to discrimination and persecution of religious minorities in (some) Muslim states ...

I have quite often said this ........ the major source of Mullah Islam is traditions (Ahadees) and centuries old interpretations, that is where they get all the ideas of stoning, sects, killing an apostate, killing a blasphemer, treating minorities as second class citizens, marrying minors, oppressing and mistreating women etc. And the other side makes it worse when they try bringing in borrowed ideas and comparisons.

Islam and Secularism are indeed compatible ..

A God less state is not compatible with Islam, if that is what today's secularism stands for.

 

[MultaniGuy]

I have quite often said this ........ the major source of Mullah Islam is traditions (Ahadees) and centuries old interpretations, that is where they get all the ideas of stoning, sects, killing an apostate, killing a blasphemer, treating minorities as second class citizens, marrying minors, oppressing and mistreating women etc. And the other side makes it worse when they try bringing in borrowed ideas and comparisons.



A God less state is not compatible with Islam, if that is what today's secularism stands for.

In Islam minorities are supposed to be treated with justice. Minorities cannot be treated as second class citizens.

But the leader of an Islamic country has to be a Muslim, This I believe is correct.

There would still be a need for partition - one just has to look at the Hindutva hate-mongering being spread by the BJP and associated entities in India today.

There is a distinction between a 'majority Muslim nation where the rights of ALL of its residents/citizens are protected' and an 'Islamic Nation'.

In an Islamic country, minorities would be treated with justice.

Pakistan claims to be an Islamic Republic, so what is the issue here?

What the hell is this guy even talking about?

Pakistan WAS founded for the Muslims of north India, therefore it was never intended to be a "secular" "liberal" or "progressive" state (whatever the hell that even means, even these people don't know).

If Jinnah was advocating for secularism then of all the places he could have formed his secular state he chose a Muslim majority region for the cause of Muslims to have their own state free from the intervention of the Hindu majority? Contradictory much?

A secular state does not care which religion becomes the majority, whether hindu, Christian, Muslim or even Atheism.

But because Pakistan was founded as a state for the Muslims of North India then by default it was never a secular state to begin with because its founding fathers made a preference for a certain religious group.

The day Pakistan becomes a "secular" state is the day it will cease to exist because to do so would undermine its very foundation.

PS next time someone advocates for turning Pakistan secular, just remember who else desires the same:

https://m.economictimes.com/news/de...army-chief-bipin-rawat/videoshow/66879787.cms

@Psychic @LeGenD @Metanoia @OsmanAli98
@django

I agree with you. If Pakistan is to be a secular country, there was no need for partition then.

Pakistan was definitely created to safeguard Muslim rights of South Asia and so Muslims of South Asia could live according to their beliefs.

 

[I.R.A]

In Islam minorities are supposed to be treated with justice. Minorities cannot be treated as second class citizens.

Then why did they? Or why do they?

But the leader of an Islamic country has to be a Muslim, This I believe is correct.

Yes but it has got nothing to do with being infidel is being inferior. The idea is that an Islamic state is free to make its legislation and policies within the immutable guidelines of Quranic principles ....... why make a non Muslim go against his wishes and seek guidance from Quran. On individual level every citizen is to be treated fairly based on merit .... based on their needs and capabilities irrespective of their faith and beliefs. Minorities are to be afforded their own Family laws according to their religion.

 

[MultaniGuy]

Then why did they? Or why do they?



Yes but it has got nothing to do with being infidel is being inferior. The idea is that an Islamic state is free to make its legislation and policies within the immutable guidelines of Quranic principles ....... why make a non Muslim go against his wishes and seek guidance from Quran. On individual level every citizen is to be treated fairly based on merit .... based on their needs and capabilities irrespective of their faith and beliefs. Minorities are to be afforded their own Family laws according to their religion.

In an Islamic state, Jews would be treated according to Jewish law, Christians with their religious law, and Hindus with their religious law.

Am I correct or am I wrong?

Since when are Non-Muslims treated as a second class citizens in an Islamic country? I think non-muslims just cannot be the leader of the country or be the general of an army.

Yes there are certain things a minority cannot do or be.

Why should a Non-Muslim seek guidance from Qur'an when he/she does not believe it?

Non-Muslims should be treated according to their religious law.

 

[I.R.A]

In an Islamic state, Jews would be treated according to Jewish law, Christians with their religious law, and Hindus with their religious law.

Am I correct or am I wrong?

They won't be forced to go against their religion. And generally accepted common laws are same for everyone.

Since when are Non-Muslims treated as a second class citizens in an Islamic country?

When were they treated fairly in recent times?

Equal opportunities of education, health, employment for everyone according to their capabilities. Does it happen in Pakistan?

I think non-muslims just cannot be the leader of the country or be the general of an army.

Yes there are certain things a minority cannot do or be.

Why should a Non-Muslim seek guidance from Qur'an when he/she does not believe it?

Non-Muslims should be treated according to their religious law.

That is what I said ......... their own family laws, how they wish to conduct their marriages, funerals, divorce, worship etc. If they want to burn their dead let them.

 

[MultaniGuy]

They won't be forced to go against their religion. And generally accepted common laws are same for everyone.



When were they treated fairly in recent times?

Equal opportunities of education, health, employment for everyone according to their capabilities. Does it happen in Pakistan?



That is what I said ......... their own family laws, how they wish to conduct their marriages, funerals, divorce, worship etc. If they want to burn their dead let them.

Ofcourse Non-Muslims are supposed to have the same opportunities for education, health, and employment.
That is the essence of justice according to an Islamic injunctions.

They won't be forced to go against their religion. And generally accepted common laws are same for everyone.



When were they treated fairly in recent times?

Equal opportunities of education, health, employment for everyone according to their capabilities. Does it happen in Pakistan?



That is what I said ......... their own family laws, how they wish to conduct their marriages, funerals, divorce, worship etc. If they want to burn their dead let them.

I agree with what you have said, except what you have said about in recent times.

In Pakistan minorities have to be treated justly and must have the same opportunities in education, health, and other departments, etc.

 

[JohnWick]

Ofcourse Non-Muslims are supposed to have the same opportunities for education, health, and employment.
That is the essence of justice according to an Islamic injunctions.

Why this nonsense thread is still running?

 

[MultaniGuy]

Why this nonsense thread is still running?

Yasir Latif Hamdani is another idiot. I don't really take him seriously.

But unfortunately we have to deal with idiots like Yasir Latif Hamdani.

 

[JohnWick]

Yasir Latif Hamdani is another idiot. I don't really take him seriously.

But unfortunately we have to deal with idiots like Yasir Latif Hamdani.

there is nothing to do with ideology of Pakistan.neither we can change it nor it has any thing change able ...that's all...

 

[MultaniGuy]

All Ahmadis should leave Pakistan to save their lives. Our future does not belong in Pakistan anymore, whatever emotions I had for Pakistan has been dying over the years but reading this thread has definitely hit the nail in the coffin for me. There is no hope for Pakistan anymore. Enjoy your sectarian murderers and Khadim Rizvis. Even the so called educated people openly spreading false propaganda against Ahmadis.

As if any other Muslim country would accept Ahmadis. This is not just Pakistan.