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The big three who can help save Afghanistan

YES the bright ones, in which terrorists will capture your nukes and blow it :lol:

Is it another wet dream of yours ? Or you are here for trolling only without knowing the security of Pakistani nukes ? :azn:
 
Believe it or not but the Afghans have been fighting for the last 200 years between themselves ... They will find a new enemy and try to defeat it whether it be Taliban , Shia militias , NA or ANA ... The country's screwed up beyond repair ... My country has decades of experience dealing in that country and we all know this fact very well ... If you want to research more , try checking the situation of Afghanistan after the end of Soviet War , did peace return ? :no:

Oh please, are you kidding yourself about the after soviet war period?

Answer these questions and lets see if we can find some common ground..

What was the role of Zia in the Soviet war in Afghan?

What was his strategy in dealing with the soviets?

What did Zia and US positions after the Soviets left?


We will continue but we can start from hee..

[:::~Spartacus~:::];3487135 said:
yeah sure thts what happened in 90s, ohh i forgot, that time talibans were the friends of people as declared by uncle sam :lol:

Is it another wet dream of yours ? Or you are here for trolling only without knowing the security of Pakistani nukes ? :azn:


I admit, I was trolling a bit... but hey that is a reason US will not stop screwing Pakistan for some time to come..
 
Oh please, are you kidding yourself about the after soviet war period?

Answer these questions and lets see if we can find some common ground..

Oh no I am not !

You think it was easy for the Pakistani Govt or ISI to deal with all different competing warlords in that time period :no: ... Yes , all of them are/were war criminals but they were the only ones in power/significant influence in Afghanistan and we had to deal/compromise between all of them ...

Screwed up beyond repair as i said !
 
Oh no I am not !

You think it was easy for the Pakistani Govt or ISI with all different competing warlords :no: ... Yes , all of them are/were war criminals but they were the only ones in power/significant influence in Afghanistan and we had to deal/compromise between all of them ...

Easy or not, you will never know what happened.. We can only look into history and deduct the most logical interpretations..

Zia created the devil for a devil to get assistance in military and economy.. He also institutionalized religion..

Also Im sure you know how this came by

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-defence-industry/150511-pakistani-armys-20bn-business.html

So what is your interpretation?

One thing I know is that wrong people are glorified in Pakistan..

Do you support IK?
 
Easy or not, you will never know what happened.. We can only look into history and deduct the most logical interpretations..

Zia created the devil for a devil to get assistance in military and economy.. He also institutionalized religion..

Also Im sure you know how this came by

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-defence-industry/150511-pakistani-armys-20bn-business.html

So what is your interpretation?

One thing I know is that wrong people are glorified in Pakistan..

Do you support IK?

Nah , there's plenty of matter available on what happened during that era after the Soviet war ended and civil war returned to Afghanistan and I think I can deduct the most logical interpretations from that ...

Again , all the Americans and Arabs who dragged us into this war in the first place are conveniently skipped by you , the people who made us believe that USSR would try to invade Pakistan next for access to warm waters - not sure if it would have happened or not ... So my country was merely acting for its own interests , caught between the devil and the deep sea ... Zia was a no one without the support of US and the Arab money and fighters ... Except for military assistance , we didn't do any better in economy in the 80's ... Do you not think we would purchased more weapons with a developing economy instead of this useless FMS which came with an unending war ? :azn: ... There's a reason why 90's is called " Lost Decade " for PAF ... The state of Pakistan from that day still bears the burden of Afghan refugees ... Islamization of Pakistan in that era is something that people still loath Zia for , contrary to one of your most popular beliefs ...

Useless for this thread , whatever Pak Army owns isn't the topic ...

My interpretation is the same , Afghanistan is something beyond anyone's control for the foreseeable future ...

Another one of your misconceptions / a popular myth ... IK is a politician like any other so my answer becomes very obvious :)

reagan_taliban_1985.jpg
 
soo a mere newpaper include india in big three for afghanistan....wow leave aside the whole US & Europe who think other way...:D

time for celebrations in india....:enjoy:

Tell me truthfully dont you want Afganistan to be a sucessful country...the Afghans as I know are very tough guys and will achive their goals to be a successful nation...we as their friends(India, Pakistan, Iran, Tajikistan, Russia and US need to shown them the path...Afghanistan as a nation is like clay...its easy for them to mould themselves at this point in their history..they just need everyone of us to layoff and let them choose thier path...and we all support them when they are faltering..my 2 cents.
 
Tell me truthfully dont you want Afganistan to be a sucessful country...the Afghans as I know are very tough guys and will achive their goals to be a successful nation...

Yes we all want that ! What can Pakistan achieve from an unstable Afghanistan ? But sorry to say , we do not live in utopia ... I honestly see no hope for that country !

At the moment , Afghanistan even lacks coherence as a nation ...
 
Nah , there's plenty of matter available on what happened during that era after the Soviet war ended and civil war returned to Afghanistan and I think I can deduct the most logical interpretations from that ...
Before it started, first thing Zia did when he came to power was add huge numbers to the strength of ISI, why?

It welcomed West for its money and promises of weapons, the islamization he started was not because of US. He was more than willing to take down Soviet using the religious tool, the reason he did not stop men like Osama and Abdullah Yusuf Azzam to come to Pakistan..

Again , all the Americans and Arabs who dragged us into this war in the first place are conveniently skipped by you , the people who made us believe that USSR would try to invade Pakistan next for access to warm waters

It was only Zia who made people believe that Soviet would capture Pakistan, they did not capture come to Afghanistan uninvited, the ANA actually request Soviet to come

There's a reason why 90's is called " Lost Decade " for PAF ... The state of Pakistan from that day still bears the burden of Afghan refugees ... Islamization of Pakistan in that era is something that people still loath Zia for , contrary to one of your most popular beliefs ...
I know whay he is hated more than anything, if it was only US pressure, why did he use the same tactic on kashmir? He could not have been forced into it ;)

Useless for this thread , whatever Pak Army owns isn't the topic ...
It started from Zia's time and FYI a professional fighting force has no business other than protection of its country, don't you think so?

My interpretation is the same , Afghanistan is something beyond anyone's control for the foreseeable future ...
Afghanistan has been screwed by the interest of countries, esp after soviet fall, US simply left, Pakistan go their refugees, could you military planner not predict that situation?

And instead of dismantling the setup for the mujhaideen, Zia kept is as a strategic depth asset, asymmetric warfare, no?

Another one of your misconceptions / a popular myth ... IK is a politician like any other so my answer becomes very obvious :)
Agreed, I was wondering because on one side he says he want to remove terroism and on the other gives legitimacy to TTP..
 
Yes we all want that ! What can Pakistan achieve from an unstable Afghanistan ? But sorry to say , we do not live in utopia ... I honestly see no hope for that country !

At the moment , Afghanistan even lacks coherence as a nation ...

Sorry to say but could that be because Afghanistan was left at the mercy of Pakistan after the Soviets left?, based on the track record of the leaders of Pakistan in shaping Pakistan through its 65 years history don't think Pakistan was the right candidate to have taken up the job of rebuilding of Afghanistan - but they did and we all know what happened after that.

The created, funded and trained Mujahids transformed into the Taliban and had a free run of a country and we got to witness the fine rule the Taliban brought about for the first time in history in a country. This is what's in store if the same folly's repeated again this time around and Russia seems to be sh!t scared of it - Iran and the CAR might be sharing the same mutual feelings.
 
Sorry to say but could that be because Afghanistan was left at the mercy of Pakistan after the Soviets left?, based on the track record of the leaders of Pakistan in shaping Pakistan through its 65 years history don't think Pakistan was the right candidate to have taken up the job of rebuilding of Afghanistan - but they did and we all know what happened after that.

The created, funded and trained Mujahids transformed into the Taliban and had a free run of a country and we got to witness the fine rule the Taliban brought about for the first time in history in a country. This is what's in store if the same folly's repeated again this time around and Russia seems to be sh!t scared of it - Iran and the CAR might be sharing the same mutual feelings.

Yup, that is correct.. Afghanistan needs nothing apart from Pakistan cleaning its house and keeping the border as a border.. Rest the alliances which Afghanistan comes into can help her set its house in order..
 
Before it started, first thing Zia did when he came to power was add huge numbers to the strength of ISI, why?

It welcomed West for its money and promises of weapons, the islamization he started was not because of US. He was more than willing to take down Soviet using the religious tool, the reason he did not stop men like Osama and Abdullah Yusuf Azzam to come to Pakistan..



It was only Zia who made people believe that Soviet would capture Pakistan, they did not capture come to Afghanistan uninvited, the ANA actually request Soviet to come

I know whay he is hated more than anything, if it was only US pressure, why did he use the same tactic on kashmir? He could not have been forced into it ;)

It started from Zia's time and FYI a professional fighting force has no business other than protection of its country, don't you think so?

Afghanistan has been screwed by the interest of countries, esp after soviet fall, US simply left, Pakistan go their refugees, could you military planner not predict that situation?

And instead of dismantling the setup for the mujhaideen, Zia kept is as a strategic depth asset, asymmetric warfare, no?

Agreed, I was wondering because on one side he says he want to remove terroism and on the other gives legitimacy to TTP..

Is this even a thing to talk about , mate ? He was a military dictator and hence tried to enhance the defense of his country ...

No , you are wrong ! The entire Western anti communist bloc and Arabs were responsible for that " manufactured fear " at that time , you are conviently skipping all others and putting the blame on one man ... Seriously !

Leave Kashmir for another thread or else be ready for a troll/flame war here ... :) Your country wasn't a saint either , fuelling insurgencies in Pakistan ...

Well , majority of the Pakistanis still hold that believe that only army with a stick can put the country into the right track and its even justified given the amount of corruption , mismanagement and screwing the country during civilian rule ... PA's not the only force in the world with significant influence on the country and politics and I think rightly so !

Not really , the history of Afghanistan if you read it in an unbiased way would tell a more sinister story , War is business for those people , the day you realize it , the day you will understand why the country has been messed up for the last 200 years and even before that ... Actually , Pakistan wasn't ready for US simply abandoning leaving us to clean the whole mess ... Multiple sanctions were imposed on us after that period ... " Strategic Depth " is a myth not supported by any credible source or any Pakistani politician or General making any comment about that ...

I do not think he ever gave any legitimacy to TTP , he was just ready for peace talks with them which the US badmouthed Pakistan for in the past but at the moment , it is doing it itself and asking for assistance from Pakistan ...
 
Sorry to say but could that be because Afghanistan was left at the mercy of Pakistan after the Soviets left?, based on the track record of the leaders of Pakistan in shaping Pakistan through its 65 years history don't think Pakistan was the right candidate to have taken up the job of rebuilding of Afghanistan - but they did and we all know what happened after that.

The created, funded and trained Mujahids transformed into the Taliban and had a free run of a country and we got to witness the fine rule the Taliban brought about for the first time in history in a country.

You think Pakistan could rebuild that country after the Afghan war ? :lol: Are you even aware of the situation on the ground then and now in Afghanistan ? :no: ... This isn't as simple as your lot seems to think ... The whole place is/was full of fighting warlords , each one for its influence and power ... If you think they want peace and prosperity in the country then you are sadly mistaken ... What Pakistan dealt after the end of Soviet war was a nightmare ... Why do not you blame the US ? Simple abandoning the country then after starting the war :azn:

Yes , who created them in the first place ? I posted a very famous picture above , may help you understand the whole thing ... NA wasn't any angelic force either , its track record in human rights says it all , maybe better than Taliban but the same quest for power !

Yup, that is correct.. Afghanistan needs nothing apart from Pakistan cleaning its house and keeping the border as a border.. Rest the alliances which Afghanistan comes into can help her set its house in order..

The alliance by whom and with whom ? That is the real question ... The mayor of Kabul simply enjoys no power outside Kabul and some other areas in Afghanistan ...
 
You think Pakistan could rebuild that country after the Afghan war ? :lol: Are you even aware of the situation on the ground then and now in Afghanistan ? :no: ... This isn't as simple as your lot seems to think ... The whole place is full of fighting warlords , each one for its influence and power ... What Pakistan dealt after the end of Soviet war was a nightmare ... Why do not you blame the US ? Simple abandoning the country then after starting the war :azn:

Yes , who created them in the first place ? I posted a very famous picture above , may help you understand the whole thing ...



The alliance by whom and with whom ? That is the real question ... The mayor of Kabul simply enjoys no power outside Kabul and some other areas in Afghanistan ...

The US got busy in other parts and Pakistan got busy using its proxies to take over what it figured as warlords and taking out its opposition in Afg - the drug money controlled by the Taliban bought the weapons for the run over of the devastated country and the fine dream of living under the freedom fighters became a nightmare for the Afghan people. Transforming the freedom fighters to become nation runners installing their brand of Talibani justice was a master stroke. But the Frankenstein messed around in the wrong places and brought the WOT to the region and to top that a number of newer factions went out of control.

This obviously goes to prove that Pakistan is incapable of handling Afghanistan on its own and a group of nations is what is required to bring back some semblance of decency to Afghanistan and its working in parts and would have been successful if Pakistan could have not sheltered the Taliban or the Haqqani's.

Pakistan claims it cannot close its porous borders and cannot take on the Taliban and its various off shoots so what's the solution for that?

We are on the same wavelength that controlling Afghanistan is not Pakistan's cup of tea so ideally Pakistan should get out of the way and let bigger countries try their hand at it and Pakistan can give a helping hand if it can.
 
The big three who can help save Afghanistan​

Taleban_2362642b.jpg

[SUB]Taliban guerrilla fighters hold their weapons at a secret base in eastern Afghanistan Photo: REUTERS[/SUB]​

Exactly 11 years ago, with the wounds of 9/11 still fresh, the United States and Britain invaded Afghanistan. They arrived in anger, collected allies along the way, and grew in ambition. Today that anger has faded, those allies depleted, and their ambition exhausted. The campaign is already the longest in American history, far surpassing the Revolutionary and Vietnam wars.

Though combat forces are not due to depart for another two years, there is a palpable sense of counting down the clock. Last month, for instance, Nato stopped training Afghan Local Police and abandoned routine joint patrols below battalion level. Why? Because it is hard enough to face a decade-long trickle of casualties at the hands of a shadowy enemy with safe havens in Pakistan, but it’s particularly dispiriting to be shot by your own side.

So far this year, 51 Nato troops have been killed at the hands of their Afghan allies, in so-called “green on blue” attacks (compared to 35 last year). A quarter of Britain’s casualties and more than a tenth of Nato’s have come in this way over the past 10 months. The evaporation of trust in Afghan colleagues cuts at the heart of the war strategy, which was to turn the Afghan National Security Forces into a bulwark against the Taliban.

There is plenty of blame to go round, although the Afghan government must take the greatest share of responsibility. Some of its officials appear to have preferred to stuff their pockets rather than reform. Around $8 billion in cash was smuggled out of the country last year. When Western diplomats talk about Hamid Karzai, the Afghan president, the language often resembles that surrounding earlier generations of feckless and ill-fated American clients, such as Ngo Dinh Diem of South Vietnam or Chiang Kai-shek of the Chinese Nationalists. Diplomats whisper that Karzai is paranoid and impulsive. But even when he goes, as he must in 2014, the state he bequeaths to his successor will be a predatory and over-centralised mess.

Afghanistan’s army will cost around $8 billion annually, but where will this money come from? Sixty-nine per cent of Americans surveyed in March thought the United States should not be at war in Afghanistan at all. Another poll this month showed that 49 per cent wanted immediate withdrawal. European states are mired in their own economic troubles.

There is no easy solution, but Nato should not be afraid to ask for help. In the Nineties, as the Taliban tore through Afghanistan, a trio of regional powers – India, Iran and Russia – backed the Taliban’s adversaries, the Northern Alliance. This is an admittedly curious set of countries. For years, Washington tried to dissuade India from getting involved for fear of provoking Pakistan. Iran, despite its antipathy to the Taliban, was alleged to have provided rockets and training to the insurgents. Nato ties with Russia are also strained, despite Barack Obama’s attempted “reset” with Moscow. And yet, this trio ultimately has a fundamental interest in a stable Afghanistan and weakened Taliban.

India has a $2 billion aid programme in Afghanistan. Last year, Delhi and Kabul also signed a strategic partnership: Afghan officers are training in India and there are plans for the transfer of military equipment. That’s the sort of assistance that war-weary Britain should welcome.

Iran might seem a bizarre ally. But in 2001, members of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps – the same outfit abetting the Syrian regime’s repression – worked with the CIA and American special forces against the Taliban. Remarkably, Iranian officials were even open to working under US command to train Afghans. As for Russia, it has 6,000 soldiers next door in Tajikistan, and played a key role in allowing Nato forces to fuel and arm themselves after Pakistan shut off supply routes last year. Moscow has no wish to see the resurgence of fundamentalist forces on its southern flank.

Working with these countries should not diminish our commitment to talking to the Taliban about a political settlement. We should also strive to give Afghan provinces more freedom from Kabul’s interference. Meanwhile, it is important than the Afghan army does not collapse. If we don’t co-operate with like-minded countries, they will opt to work with their favourite ethnic and factional militias, which would worsen Afghanistan’s own divisions.

The war in Afghanistan may not be lost, but it is certainly not being won. In 1986, Mikhail Gorbachev lamented that “a million of our soldiers went through Afghanistan, and we will not be able to explain to our people why we did not complete it. We suffered such heavy losses! And what for?” The Soviet Union lost nearly five times as many men as Nato, in a shorter period. Yet Gorbachev’s sense of disillusion is recognisable today.

Privately, British officials are thinking about pulling out British forces much more quickly than planned. But shock therapy is not the answer. The stability of Afghanistan still matters, not just for the sake of Afghans but also because a renewed civil war would catalyse extremism in the region. Nato can no longer be choosy about its allies. Damage limitation is the order of the day.

The big three who can help save Afghanistan - Telegraph

Absolute nonsensical article ,

Yes US/isaf will ask iran to play a role in afghanistan as it increases and broadens its prewar campaign against iran.The iranians will be overjoyed when the f-15s take off from batgram and bomb it from the east.Its ludicrous to believe that taliban are a bigger threat to iran in afghanistan then a pro US government.The only reason iran initially provided support to northern alliance was because it wanted to establish an anti taliban buffer zone along its border with afghanistan ,but it wont go as far as supporting Northern alliance all the way ,that would result in the victory for its mortal enemy -the us.

As for Russia ,US strategic hold in afghanistan directly threats its influence in central Asia ,some have gone far to say that it may even been the reason why US invaded this region in the first place.After the Salala incident ,russia considered blocking the northern route ,this had little to do with attack by nato forces as it was more of a diplomatic maneuver in accordance with its missile shield dispute with the US.So support from russia depends on the its international relations with the US/NATO which are far from being warm

As for India, yes it can provide financial and military assistance to Karzai ,but can this impact bring victory to the ANA ,are the taliban ,who have been resisting the full might of the US for more than a decade ,going to disappear in too thin air in less than 2 years.
 


Absolute nonsensical article ,

Yes US/isaf will ask iran to play a role in afghanistan as it increases and broadens its prewar campaign against iran.The iranians will be overjoyed when the f-15s take off from batgram and bomb it from the east.Its ludicrous to believe that taliban are a bigger threat to iran in afghanistan then a pro US government.The only reason iran initially provided support to northern alliance was because it wanted to establish an anti taliban buffer zone along its border with afghanistan ,but it wont go as far as supporting Northern alliance all the way ,that would result in the victory for its mortal enemy -the us.

As for Russia ,US strategic hold in afghanistan directly threats its influence in central Asia ,some have gone far to say that it may even been the reason why US invaded this region in the first place.After the Salala incident ,russia considered blocking the northern route ,this had little to do with attack by nato forces as it was more of a diplomatic maneuver in accordance with its missile shield dispute with the US.So support from russia depends on the its international relations with the US/NATO which are far from being warm

As for India, yes it can provide financial and military assistance to Karzai ,but can this impact bring victory to the ANA ,are the taliban ,who have been resisting the full might of the US for more than a decade ,going to disappear in too thin air in less than 2 years.

Check with the Iranians and Russia they would love to get involved, Iran has major plans for Afghanistan and beyond with its Chabahar port and rail links connecting majority Afghanistan - Russia oh yes they would want to put a stop to terrorists and the drugs that make their way into Russia.
 

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