Some questions related to number of tanks in Pakistan Army

[TaimiKhan]

you must need to know that al-zarar are replacing t-59s

so in future waziristan operations we would might see
al-zarars taking part in counter-insurgency operations instead of outdated t-59s
al-zarars were not made to take part in war on
western front

---------- Post added at 09:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:15 PM ----------





am i correct sir that al-zarar are designed to take part in counter-insurgency operations?

Sir, AL Zarrar program started in 1990, first phase completed in 1997-8, and at that time there was no COIN operations in the country.
Plus Al Zarrar has nothing till now for COIN operations, COIN operations requirements are something else, check on net about the COIN related upgrades to Abrams.

So al Zarrar has been there for past many years, we have been seeing on the 23 march parade for the last decade or so. Why not used at that time then ???

Plus we dont need 300 tanks for COIN operations, just a few are enough, plus around 80 to 100 Type-59 tanks have been already provided to the FC for their use, as i said again the need for Al Zarrar came now due to its superior armor, plus night fighting capability. As a lot of movement and operations in this phase of swat operation happened at night.

And in Waziristan we will see both of them in action, do take into consideration that these areas are not plain lands, rather hilly areas, so on any operation 3, 4 or 5 or may be less tanks would be used, there is no one there on whom we launch an armored assault of 300 tanks.

And AL Zarrar is not replacing T-59, rather T-59 is being updated to the Al Zarrar standard. Plz do keep in mind, Al Zarrar is not a new tank, its the upgraded package of T-59, that has been named Al Zarrar.

Even AK has parts of many older tanks which are slowly being decommissioned. AK has nearly 50% parts of T-59, T-69 & T-85 tanks and rest new.

So HIT & PA did a very clever thing of not letting go in waste the parts of the old tank but utilizing them into new ones.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Nightrider Sahib:

There not enough AK's to equip two armoured brigades so I guess the T-85 is still up there in the frontline inventory.

Al Zarrar is not being used in South -- it main gun will not be usefull for extreme long range duels expected in deserts of Cholistan, & Thar.

If we look and work back to the production capability of HIT/HRF not more than 350 tanks (al zarrar anf AK mix) have been produced -- so the T-85 in my opinion remains.

Cheers!!

In an armored brigade there are around approx 130-140 tanks, so if AK has indeed reached the figure of 320, then there are at least two brigades in service. If u look in the above posts, the chairan of HIT has told the senate standing committee that 600 tanks figure for both Al Zarrar & Al Khalid has been reached. Plus one brigade of Al Khalid won't be having any significant impact.

AK is a new tank and more superior then Al Zarrar, plus Indian Cold Start doctrine's center piece is the desert and plain areas, so PA would have concentrated more on AK then AZ, to have a decent counter to India's latest armor.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

I agree with you but our estimation is based upon an unknown factor wat is the mix of AK & AZ.

There is another aromured brigade in Quetta -- Let me get an update thru my link in Armoured Corps.

Thanks for the update

BTW there is a mour that the two armoured brigade element is more closer to an armoured division if true it would mean another armoured brigade or souped up two armoured brigades. Thought I should share tis with you.

 

[TaimiKhan]

I agree with you but our estimation is based upon an unknown factor wat is the mix of AK & AZ.

There is another aromured brigade in Quetta -- Let me get an update thru my link in Armoured Corps.

Thanks for the update

BTW there is a mour that the two armoured brigade element is more closer to an armoured division if true it would mean another armoured brigade or souped up two armoured brigades. Thought I should share tis with you.

Yes it is based on a guess, but the majority of the reports on many websites and defense related articles is a 300 figure.
Plus u tell urself if u r a decision maker, and u have two tanks to produce, one superior & more important then other, what will u do ??? Logic says the more important one and superior is to be produced in larger number.

And have been to quetta, there are armor units but all the old tanks. The latest are all at the eastern border. Even Peshawar did not have these latest armor units, old ones are given to the quetta and peshawar corps.


"BTW there is a mour that the two armoured brigade element is more closer to an armoured division if true it would mean another armoured brigade or souped up two armoured brigades. "

This i did not totally understand as what u wanted to say.

 

[nightrider_saulat]

Nightrider Sahib:

There not enough AK's to equip two armoured brigades so I guess the T-85 is still up there in the frontline inventory.

Al Zarrar is not being used in South -- it main gun will not be usefull for extreme long range duels expected in deserts of Cholistan, & Thar.

If we look and work back to the production capability of HIT/HRF not more than 350 tanks (al zarrar anf AK mix) have been produced -- so the T-85 in my opinion remains.

Cheers!!

please go through wikipedia it is stated there that PA is replacing it's old t-85 with AKs actually pakistan's main tank thrust to face any possible indian offence of 600 t-90s and 2700 t-72s is composed of equal 640 of AKs AND t-80ud
please ask some milatary professional here in this forum
they will tell exactly what i have just said

Sir, AL Zarrar program started in 1990, first phase completed in 1997-8, and at that time there was no COIN operations in the country.
Plus Al Zarrar has nothing till now for COIN operations, COIN operations requirements are something else, check on net about the COIN related upgrades to Abrams.

So al Zarrar has been there for past many years, we have been seeing on the 23 march parade for the last decade or so. Why not used at that time then ???

Plus we dont need 300 tanks for COIN operations, just a few are enough, plus around 80 to 100 Type-59 tanks have been already provided to the FC for their use, as i said again the need for Al Zarrar came now due to its superior armor, plus night fighting capability. As a lot of movement and operations in this phase of swat operation happened at night.

And in Waziristan we will see both of them in action, do take into consideration that these areas are not plain lands, rather hilly areas, so on any operation 3, 4 or 5 or may be less tanks would be used, there is no one there on whom we launch an armored assault of 300 tanks.

And AL Zarrar is not replacing T-59, rather T-59 is being updated to the Al Zarrar standard. Plz do keep in mind, Al Zarrar is not a new tank, its the upgraded package of T-59, that has been named Al Zarrar.

Even AK has parts of many older tanks which are slowly being decommissioned. AK has nearly 50% parts of T-59, T-69 & T-85 tanks and rest new.

So HIT & PA did a very clever thing of not letting go in waste the parts of the old tank but utilizing them into new ones.

beleive pakistan will never dare put their inferior AZs infront of hight-tech and advance t-90bhishma and t-72ajeya
AZ are only suitable for urban and small scale warfare

 

[fatman17]

please go through wikipedia it is stated there that PA is replacing it's old t-85 with AKs actually pakistan's main tank thrust to face any possible indian offence of 600 t-90s and 2700 t-72s is composed of equal 640 of AKs AND t-80ud
please ask some milatary professional here in this forum
they will tell exactly what i have just said

beleive pakistan will never dare put their inferior AZs infront of hight-tech and advance t-90bhishma and t-72ajeya
AZ are only suitable for urban and small scale warfare

my friend, wikipedia is not a "accurate" source for information - there are a lot of distortions!

 

[TaimiKhan]

please go through wikipedia it is stated there that PA is replacing it's old t-85 with AKs actually pakistan's main tank thrust to face any possible indian offence of 600 t-90s and 2700 t-72s is composed of equal 640 of AKs AND t-80ud
please ask some milatary professional here in this forum
they will tell exactly what i have just said

beleive pakistan will never dare put their inferior AZs infront of hight-tech and advance t-90bhishma and t-72ajeya
AZ are only suitable for urban and small scale warfare

U r one tough nut to crack and make understand.

 

[fatman17]

U r one tough nut to crack and make understand.

he's a good guy anyway!

 

[TaimiKhan]

he's a good guy anyway!

Yes he is Sir , no doubt about that.

 

[Super Falcon]

when do we said he is bad

 

[nightrider_saulat]

my friend, wikipedia is not a "accurate" source for information - there are a lot of distortions!

U r one tough nut to crack and make understand.

he's a good guy anyway!

Yes he is Sir , no doubt about that.

when do we said he is bad

stop abusing me
because I have now agree that PA is not retiring it's t-85II fleet

 

[Aamir Hussain]

Taimikhan Sahib:

I agree with you observations, however the practical production capacity depends upno what you can produce in the limited time available --when the "50 tanks per year" production figure was quoted it must have been under pressure to give a respectable figure -- it is easier to retrofit available tanks requiring less man hours than building a tank from ground up.

The logical assumption would be that the retro fit would be at a faster pace beacuse of less man-hours needed as compared to building new tanks. Thus higher figure of AZ in "50 Tank" figure.

As far as your confusion on my statment on the souped up armoured brigades -- let me explain:

For security reasons, the two indendant armoured brigades stationed at Karachi are classified as brigade while in reality they are more closer to divisional strenght when counted together. As you may very well know the chinese t-85 and t 80UD equipped these brigades and the one in Pano Aqil. Now some of them are being replaced with AK.

AZ is a stop gap for Punjab plains. You do not require an MBT in Punjab due to close proximity of built up areas and trees/foliage -- those who fought in Punjab in Tanks will testify to this -- duels at extreme ranges do not happen therfore no need for a larger gun but a more effective armour suit -- that is why AZ has been given the new armour suit.

I hope a lot more clarity is there.

 

[TaimiKhan]

stop abusing me
because I have now agree that PA is not retiring it's t-85II fleet

Yaar dil pae nahien lainay kaaaa, we did not abused u, we were having friendly remarks & friendly laughs.

 

[nightrider_saulat]

Yaar dil pae nahien lainay kaaaa, we did not abused u, we were having friendly remarks & friendly laughs.

okay just tell me why are we still not retiring our old t-85
in the presence of much more advance t-80 and al-khalid

and also tell me can we make sure to consider al-zarar
to fight well against more advance t-72 and t-90

 

[fatman17]

okay just tell me why are we still not retiring our old t-85
in the presence of much more advance t-80 and al-khalid

and also tell me can we make sure to consider al-zarar
to fight well against more advance t-72 and t-90

when enough AKs are inducted in the PA, then all the older model/types will be withdrawn, till then the PA needs to keep adequate number of tanks. the target is 2,000 tanks as i mentioned earlier comprising AKs, T-80UDs, AZs, and maybe a german tank.