Saudi Arabia, Zionism, Peace and the Palestinian Cause

[Banglar Lathial]

Then in that case my point proven, there is no "Muslim Ummah", there's only National interests/self interests.


The above has nothing to do with the topic of the thread. I only brought up the example of indo-Arab brotherly relations, you can save the rest of your post for the relevant thread.


He was a great pilot, but to say there were no other pilots as good him just hilarious at best. I can name pilots who were just as good. But then again, this has nothing to do with this thread.


Turkey is not a Islamic country, its a Secular country, they are also in NATO and have an independent policy which is not influenced by Saudis.



Whether or not if they did or not, only one way to find out, and i'm sure the Saudis will consider Pakistan as a betrayer to the "Islamic cause" to give back the Palestinian Arabs their land., for betraying Al-Aqsa mosque.



Pakistan's diplomatic relations with india are not really that significantly strong, in fact Pakistan's relations with india can't progress unless india gives Kashmir freedom.



Not all Pakistanis, this goes to show you have very little knowledge with regards to Pakistan and its people. Different parts of Pakistan can associate itself with different countries, and neither was Pakistan once a part of some Arab country the way it was a part of india (for more than 1,000 years) which is why there are more cultural similarities between eastern part of Pakistan with northwestern india.



I never said Arabs should cut relations with india and as i have already said, Pakistan's delicate and insignificant relations with india are not even on the level of indo-Arab relations and can neither be considered significant!

My only concern is that Pakistan has made a unnecessary enemy out of Israel for the sake of Arabs who want to invest billions in our enemy.

Do not reply on a piecemeal basis. It gets very difficult to follow the chain of arguments in this way. If Pakistanis do not cut relations with India and feel more at ease with India, then why should Arabs be "blamed" for their relationships with India? At least, most Arabs are enemies with "Israel" openly and those that have made peace are because of their "traitor" leaders. "Israel" is an insignificant economy, Arabs boycott it, so do most Muslims and there is nothing "Israel" can do about it. When Pakistan itself enjoys strong relationship with India, how can you say Arab relationship with India is stronger?

About Saiful Azam, I do not think there has been a single W. Pakistani pilot with a greater success record against "Israel". That is not the point of the thread, so lets not divert it.

 

[Desert Fox]

We should end the fighting and problems among each other and should try to work for the greater cause--"Palestine Cause"

Palestine Cause=Arab Cause.

 

[Banglar Lathial]

SA THE INDUSTRIAL POWERHOUSE of the middle east ?
SA THE INDUSTRIAL POWERHOUSE of the Arab World ?
Are you saying SA is more industrialized than Egypt, Turkey, or Iran ?

I always have a problem with these comparisons because in order for one nation to be at the top, all the other Muslim countries must lag behind this leader. This perception creates enmity between Muslims. What the entire Muslim world should aim for is to be the top industrial powerhouses of the world. There is no point comparing with one another to create animosity amongst each other.

 

[Desert Fox]

Do not reply on a piecemeal basis. It gets very difficult to follow the chain of arguments in this way.

It is the best way to accurately address some of your inaccurate points.

If Pakistanis do not cut relations with India and feel more at ease with India,

Who said we feel at ease with india? india, the same country that has massed large numbers of troops, tanks, jets, and artillery on our borders as well as cutting off our rivers?

You don't have a clue as to what you're talking about.

then why should Arabs be "blamed" for their relationships with India?

Because they are indirectly making our enemy stronger by investing billions in its economy and infrastructure, also they haven't provided any support with regards to Pakistan's stance on the Kashmir issue while Pakistan has opnely and strongly support the ARAB cause against Israel.

At least, most Arabs are enemies with "Israel" openly and those that have made peace are because of their "traitor" leaders.

Exactly the mentality i'm implying, make friends with india its ok but establish relations with Israel and you're a "traitor" to the so called "Islamic" cause.

"Israel" is an insignificant economy, Arabs boycott it, so do most Muslims and there is nothing "Israel" can do about it.

You really have no clue as to what you're talking about. Just because everything doesn't have the "Made in Israel" label on it does not mean its not made in Israel, the computer you are using right now has components made in Israel, so you and many other Muslims are contributing to the Israeli economy. Secondly, Israel is not an entity that can be ignored, it is here to stay and it has proven thrice in history that no man can remove it. It might be insignificant to you but in reality its more important than you think, which is why i believe that Pakistan should dich the ARAB cause and establish relations with Israel.

When Pakistan itself enjoys strong relationship with India, how can you say Arab relationship with India is stronger?

Please prove that Pakistan enjoys STRONG relationship with india, and secondly, Arabs do have strong relations with india otherwise which country invests billions of dollars in a country they don't have any strong and cordial relations with?

About Saiful Azam, I do not think there has been a single W. Pakistani pilot with a greater success record against "Israel".

Saiful Azam was one of the best Aces of 1965 War that was deputed to the Arab countries, due to the indian threat Pakistan didn't allocate all of its Aces to the Arab countries, had Pakistan done so then i'm sure Aces like MM Alam who shot down 5 indian aircraft within 1 minute could have downed equal if not much greater number Israeli pilots than Saiful Azam.

That is not the point of the thread, so lets not divert it.

Than why do you keep bringing it up?

 

[Desert Fox]

@Mosa

You failed to reply to my post #679 in which i had to quote half of my previous post which you failed to address.

 

[Mosamania]

@Mosa

You failed to reply to my post #679 in which i had to quote half of my previous post which you failed to address.

And I just opened this thread to do just that. Well, it is not my position nor anyone's position for that matter to decide wither Pakistan should have brotherly relations with Israel or not. Israel most certainly could help Pakistan Technologically more than any Arab country could for the time being. But as I said it is not my place to decide it is Pakistanis who should decide on this.

Off the record: Egypt and Jordan have good relations with Israel, How much did Israel help them technologically and Industrially??

 

[FriendOfPakistan]

Healthy competition is good, if it drives those countries to excel. I feel no animosity, say, towards Turkey ... they have created a competitive industry that can sell more goods than Iran sells oil, and for that hats off to Turkey. If Saudia can do the same, good for them. But when claims are made that seem unrealistic ... one has to point it out. For example, I can't see Iran being ahead of Japan in 20 years, no way. Similarly, Saudia won't be ahead of Turkey in 20 years (industrially).

I always have a problem with these comparisons because in order for one nation to be at the top, all the other Muslim countries must lag behind this leader. This perception creates enmity between Muslims. What the entire Muslim world should aim for is to be the top industrial powerhouses of the world. There is no point comparing with one another to create animosity amongst each other.

 

[Mosamania]

Healthy competition is good, if it drives those countries to excel. I feel no animosity, say, towards Turkey ... they have created a competitive industry that can sell more goods than Iran sells oil, and for that hats off to Turkey. If Saudia can do the same, good for them. But when claims are made that seem unrealistic ... one has to point it out. For example, I can't see Iran being ahead of Japan in 20 years, no way. Similarly, Saudia won't be ahead of Turkey in 20 years (industrially).

You aim high and you shoot. Even if it missed the target by little you still made a huge progress.

Saudi Arabia Among 20 Most Competitive Economies in the World -- WASHINGTON, Sept. 8, 2011 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ --

 

[Banglar Lathial]

It is the best way to accurately address some of your inaccurate points.

I requested you not to do so but you still reply in piecemeal fashion by breaking up individual statements and replying to them with your answers chock full of inaccuracies. I will do the same for this thread as well.

Who said we feel at ease with india? india, the same country that has massed large numbers of troops, tanks, jets, and artillery on our borders as well as cutting off our rivers?

The reality says that you (Pakistanis) feel at ease with India.
1)Does Pakistan have an embassy/consulate in India? Yes.
2)Does India have an embassy/consulate in Pakistan? Yes.
3)Has Pakistan provided MFN status to India? Yes
4)Did the Pakistani Prime Minister visit India to watch the ICC World Cup 2011 semi-final? Yes.
5)Do Pakistanis watch Indian movies and songs and other television programmes? Yes.
6)Do Pakistani cricketers like Wasim Akram join Indian television channels on a regular basis for commentating and analyzing cricket matches? Yes.
7)Do Pakistani citizens go to India for medical treatment? Yes. (Even though Arab countries like Jordan and Dubai, UAE have ventured into this field and non Arab countries like Iran, Malaysia and Turkey have also developed the medical tourism sector).
8)Look at this forum. Does this forum have more Indian members than Arab or non-Pakistani Muslim members? Yes.
9)Do Pakistani visionary leaders like Imran Khan provide interviews to Indian television channels aplenty? Yes. For example, Imran Khan - Interview by Karan Thapar in Devil's Advocate - CNN-IBN - YouTube
10)Do Pakistani visionary leaders like Imran Khan provide interviews to Arab television channels aplenty? No.

These are just 10 points that support my thesis and have wasted a good 10 minutes of my time to prove obvious facts to you because you are obstinate or ignorant (possibly both).

You don't have a clue as to what you're talking about.

I know fully well what I am talking about. In light of the small sampling of evidence posted above, it seems you do not have a clue as to what you are writing.

Because they are indirectly making our enemy stronger by investing billions in its economy and infrastructure, also they haven't provided any support with regards to Pakistan's stance on the Kashmir issue while Pakistan has opnely and strongly support the ARAB cause against Israel.

Who said they are your enemies? If they are your enemies, why do you still recognize them? Why do your "visionary leaders" like Imran Khan get interviewed in India? Why do you establish trade relations with them? Why do you sing and dance to the tune of your enemy's propaganda? Let me repeat the small sampling of points I have provided above.

The reality says that you (Pakistanis) feel at ease with India.
1)Does Pakistan have an embassy/consulate in India? Yes.
2)Does India have an embassy/consulate in Pakistan? Yes.
3)Has Pakistan provided MFN status to India? Yes
4)Did the Pakistani Prime Minister visit India to watch the ICC World Cup 2011 semi-final? Yes.
5)Do Pakistanis watch Indian movies and songs and other television programmes? Yes.
6)Do Pakistani cricketers like Wasim Akram join Indian television channels on a regular basis for commentating and analyzing cricket matches? Yes.
7)Do Pakistani citizens go to India for medical treatment? Yes. (Even though Arab countries like Jordan and Dubai, UAE have ventured into this field and non Arab countries like Iran, Malaysia and Turkey have also developed the medical tourism sector).
8)Look at this forum. Does this forum have more Indian members than Arab or non-Pakistani Muslim members? Yes.
9)Do Pakistani visionary leaders like Imran Khan provide interviews to Indian television channels aplenty? Yes. For example, Imran Khan - Interview by Karan Thapar in Devil's Advocate - CNN-IBN - YouTube
10)Do Pakistani visionary leaders like Imran Khan provide interviews to Arab television channels aplenty? No.

The so-called Pakistan's strong and open support of Palestine amounted to what? What did Pakistan do during the "Operation Cast Lead" massacre of innocent civilians in Gaza? What happened to your Ra'ad, Babur, Shaheens and Ghaznavis and your most cherished nuclear weapons arsenal? Did you send any commandos to liberate Palestine or seize "Israeli" nukes or to kill their terrorist MOSSAD agents anywhere in the world?

Exactly the mentality i'm implying, make friends with india its ok but establish relations with Israel and you're a "traitor" to the so called "Islamic" cause.

You do not make any sense here. Maybe, you need to rewrite this sentence. Try again.

You really have no clue as to what you're talking about.

In light of the small sampling of evidence presented by me above, it's wise to say that description suits you.

Just because everything doesn't have the "Made in Israel" label on it does not mean its not made in Israel,

Usually, it does.

the computer you are using right now has components made in Israel, so you and many other Muslims are contributing to the Israeli economy.

What makes you think that?

Secondly, Israel is not an entity that can be ignored,

On the contrary, it can be ignored.

it is here to stay and it has proven thrice in history that no man can remove it.

Empty rhetoric without a shred of logic. It can be removed and it has not proven that it can not be removed. That does not address the topic, though.

It might be insignificant to you but in reality its more important than you think, which is why i believe that Pakistan should dich the ARAB cause and establish relations with Israel.

That's what you think but it is completely insignificant on its own and has to rely on foreign Western help in all forms to sustain it.

Please prove that Pakistan enjoys STRONG relationship with india, and secondly, Arabs do have strong relations with india otherwise which country invests billions of dollars in a country they don't have any strong and cordial relations with?

The reality says that you (Pakistanis) feel at ease with India.
1)Does Pakistan have an embassy/consulate in India? Yes.
2)Does India have an embassy/consulate in Pakistan? Yes.
3)Has Pakistan provided MFN status to India? Yes
4)Did the Pakistani Prime Minister visit India to watch the ICC World Cup 2011 semi-final? Yes.
5)Do Pakistanis watch Indian movies and songs and other television programmes? Yes.
6)Do Pakistani cricketers like Wasim Akram join Indian television channels on a regular basis for commentating and analyzing cricket matches? Yes.
7)Do Pakistani citizens go to India for medical treatment? Yes. (Even though Arab countries like Jordan and Dubai, UAE have ventured into this field and non Arab countries like Iran, Malaysia and Turkey have also developed the medical tourism sector).
8)Look at this forum. Does this forum have more Indian members than Arab or non-Pakistani Muslim members? Yes.
9)Do Pakistani visionary leaders like Imran Khan provide interviews to Indian television channels aplenty? Yes. For example, Imran Khan - Interview by Karan Thapar in Devil's Advocate - CNN-IBN - YouTube
10)Do Pakistani visionary leaders like Imran Khan provide interviews to Arab television channels aplenty? No.

The above is a small sampling from thousands of other instances that prove that both the Pakistani government, the civil society and the public feel more at ease with India than with the Arab or the rest of the Muslim world.

Saiful Azam was one of the best Aces of 1965 War that was deputed to the Arab countries,

Saiful Azam fought the Jews in 1967, not in 1965. You got one fact wrong there.
It is natural that you would get more facts wrong in your following sentences.

due to the indian threat Pakistan didn't allocate all of its Aces to the Arab countries, had Pakistan done so then

Excuses. Every one can make up some of them.
Facts: The most decorated ace pilot for "Pakistan" against "Israel" is Saiful Azam from Bangladesh, not any pilot from West Pakistan.

i'm sure Aces like MM Alam who shot down 5 indian aircraft within 1 minute could have downed equal if not much greater number Israeli pilots than Saiful Azam.

Incidentally, MM Alam also speaks Bangla. Besides, it's your guess that M M Alam, a Bangla speaker, would have performed better than Saiful Azam, the best performing "Pakistani" pilot against "Israel" in history, if he were given the opportunity. That is your guess. You have unsuccessfully tried to pass it off as a certainty but the well informed members know very well how to distinguish between a guess and a certainty.

Than why do you keep bringing it up?

I have not. I closed that chapter in that post of mine but you, with your misinformed opinions, kept returning to the same topic which wasted a lot of my time because I had to prove some pretty obvious statements to you by wasting my precious time.

 

[Banglar Lathial]

Healthy competition is good, if it drives those countries to excel. I feel no animosity, say, towards Turkey ... they have created a competitive industry that can sell more goods than Iran sells oil, and for that hats off to Turkey. If Saudia can do the same, good for them. But when claims are made that seem unrealistic ... one has to point it out. For example, I can't see Iran being ahead of Japan in 20 years, no way. Similarly, Saudia won't be ahead of Turkey in 20 years (industrially).

You do not need to compete with other Muslim countries. Saudis can think of themselves as competitors of South Korea, Iran can think of it as competitor of Italy or France. You may be behind these countries in your advanced industries at present but in time, you may be able to overtake them if you aim high.

 

[Banglar Lathial]

Off the record: Egypt and Jordan have good relations with Israel, How much did Israel help them technologically and Industrially??

It's one of those propaganda items spread by the Western and Zionist media that recognizing "Israel", liberalizing your economies, following the West to import immorality into your societies will advance you. In reality, those are utter lies that have been proven wrong on numerous occasions by various independent sources using various mechanisms.

Besides, "Israel" is in no position to help out Jordan and Egypt because "Israel" itself receives more direct aid from USA than Egypt and Jordan did during Mubarak and Abdullah's rule. This is not to mention all that help 'Israel' receives indirectly or those that escape the scanner.

 

[lem34]

Where King Abdullah "failed" is in sending Saudi students to USA or for that matter anywhere in the West. Other "Muslim" countries (even Iran) does the same, but that does not mean any such move is wise. USA has shown how much it "loves" Muslims and Arabs in Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia, Yemen and elsewhere. I would have hoped at least some wealthy countries' leaders in the "Muslim world" would have sufficient intellect to initiate some joint project.

Not only is this family complicit with Zionists but I agree with you they lack any finesse or intellect

---------- Post added at 08:50 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:47 AM ----------

Yes in the past there was some serious F***ed up $hit going on and I admit that whole heartedly and if I could apologize for the past I would however I consider the past to be a different country and not the same one I live in right now. Is the government still supporting these things?? The only "Evidences" seem to be are conspiracy theories. However are there people from Saudi Arabia supporting terrorism in Afghanistan, Iraq and Pakistan I have to say yes there is which are merely the remnants of the previous age which is long gone (Relatively speaking). Now terrorists mostly rely on money sold from drugs and Credit Card thievery because their previous source is drying up.

Your apology is not only accepted but I appreciate your comments

---------- Post added at 08:52 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:50 AM ----------

Thank you Mosa for providing your input, i can agree that your country has come a long way and still has some work to be done with regards to eradicating those in your country who have supported and continue to support Salafi extremists in non-Arab Muslim countries, however Mosa you have only addressed half of my post.

Here i will post the other half of my previous post which you didn't address:

"Why should countries like Pakistan, Afghanistan, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan, Kazakstan, Uzbekistan, Malaysia, Indonesia and other non-Arab Muslim countries have enmity towards Israel and Iran for the sake of Arabs/Saudi Arabs??

You can do whatever you want with your oil, you can business deal with india, have fights with Iran and Israel but don't drag others into your conflicts and don't be object if other non-Arab Muslims countries form cordial relations with Israel or Iran. "

Very valid point. We have made an enemy of Israel over Arabs. Yet these Arabs appear to be complicit and friends of Zionists

---------- Post added at 08:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:52 AM ----------

When oil prices hit $147 per barrel and US$ was plunging like a lead bucket through thin air, it was Saudi and Gulf Arab leaders' unwise decision to back the US dollar that saved it. That is an immeasurable act of treachery to the Muslim Ummah unless you believe your leaders are ignorant enough to not know what they have done. Even most of your economic and financial analysts at Sovereign Wealth Funds and Banks are from the West, or Western (English) educated citizens of former British colonies.

Saudis and wealthy Arab countries could have done so much better had there been wiser leaders. It's terribly disappointing and very sad for the Ummah that you continue to support the West.

This certainly supports the assertion that the House off Al Saud is complicit with Americans and Zionists. The rest of your response is interesting but well off topic

---------- Post added at 08:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:55 AM ----------

You are wrong but do not derail this thread. Start a new thread if you want to be proved wrong.

knowing this why do you do that so often. This thread for the avoidance of doubt is about Sauds being complicit with Zionists

---------- Post added at 08:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:56 AM ----------

You are wrong but do not derail this thread. Start a new thread if you want to be proved wrong.

knowing this why do you do that so often. This thread for the avoidance of doubt is about Sauds being complicit with Zionists

 

[lem34]

Stop making childish statements that just "own" you. Create the thread and do not derail this one.

I have notice there is an edge to some of your comments. If you don't agree you get aggressive and rude. There is no need to get personal here. Yeti was using English colonialism there is nothing wrong with that. If you don't understand it you do not have to call him childish.

 

[lem34]

It seems clear that you have a distinct point of view regarding world issues. There is a Muslim Ummah as long as there are Muslims in the world. The point is Saudi leaders have betrayed the Ummah consistently and one notable act of betrayal was backing US$ when it was about to collapse, nobody around the world was backing it. We know fully well what USA has done in Iraq, Yemen, Afghanistan, Somalia, elsewhere.

So House of Saud has betrayed us and you appear to be agreeing with us, they are complicit with Zionists??

However because they are part of the Ummah we should turn the other cheek???

---------- Post added at 07:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:34 PM ----------

I
Indira Gandhi or any other Indian could not have broken apart "East Pakistan" if "West Pakistan" itself was not responsible. You should learn to bear the responsibilities of your leaders' mistakes. Bangladeshis fought for Pakistan as late as 1965 against India. In 1967, Bangladeshi pilot Saif Ul Azam was the best performing pilot from then "Pakistan", which no West Pakistani pilot has been able to match so far in its history.

Off topic and I see no point in indulging you and getting an infraction. This although very interesting is not relevant to the thread. The thread is about Zionists and House of Al Saud being complicit whilst pretending to the masses that they are enemies

 

[lem34]

Turkey has relations with "Israel", Saudis have not interfered there. I have never heard of Saudis stopping Pakistanis from having strong relations with "Israel" to be frank. ?

How the hell would Saudis complain when they are more friendly with Israel than turkey? As far as stopping Pakistan from having relations why don't you look at earlier comments of two Arab posters one who said we would suffer in the afterlife for dealing with Israelis and the other one though outwardly saying he didn't care suggested that it was no use to Pakistan etc. Back directly on topic Saudis are in no position to tell anyone else not to be friendly to Israel as they are completely complicit with Israel