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PIA plane crash near Model Colony Karachi with 93+ on board

Sir, Dawn has captioned that photo with "photo courtesy: Radio Pakistan"

Also found this clip that contains the same group:


Yeah dear I noted that...

Chalo bhai it is fine then.... Let's hope something good and constructive comes out of this investigation.

Sir, Dawn has captioned that photo with "photo courtesy: Radio Pakistan"

Also found this clip that contains the same group:


On a side note...
RADIO Pakistan.... Why a radio channel should be taking pictures?
 
Let's hope something good and constructive comes out of this investigation.
G Sir, InshAllah!


On a side note...
RADIO Pakistan.... Why a radio channel should be taking pictures?
Sir they are maintaining a website that also contains pictures. Perhaps this is an upgradation.
I have worked with a deptt. of similar nature, that is primarily concerned with giving coverage to govt. through direct (self) and private newspapers including state owned PTV, and keeping check on newspapers for perception management or filtering out content that could tarnish the image of govt. Not to forget mentioning they also operate their own radio stations. To cut to the chase, with the arrival of cameras, such deptts. have also revolutionized their reporting. They are issued cameras that are directly connected to internet and as soon as a picture is taken, it is sent forward to the desired person. So I believe Radio Pakistan started publishing photos so as to give a more concrete look than the imaginary we try to create when we hear news over a radio. Then there are venues where only the officials of such deptts. are allowed. So in that case, the officials are the only source to relay information to journalists or representatives of newspapers that are not there on the occasion. Generally, we used to cover events, take photos and then disseminate it to as many dailies as possible. Our main aim was to highlight the event regardless of the fact that journalists would usually write their own names with our written press releases. Perhaps Radio Pakistan is doing the same thing. Even though this was an airport and not a sensitive installation, but again the CAA would have requested media coverage from Radio Pakistan for the arrival of the investigation team. And Radio Pakistan who would have called reporters of their choice and also forwarded pictures to newspapers that maybe wanted to publish it.
 
G Sir, InshAllah!



Sir they are maintaining a website that also contains pictures. Perhaps this is an upgradation.
I have worked with a deptt. of similar nature, that is primarily concerned with giving coverage to govt. through direct (self) and private newspapers including state owned PTV, and keeping check on newspapers for perception management or filtering out content that could tarnish the image of govt. Not to forget mentioning they also operate their own radio stations. To cut to the chase, with the arrival of cameras, such deptts. have also revolutionized their reporting. They are issued cameras that are directly connected to internet and as soon as a picture is taken, it is sent forward to the desired person. So I believe Radio Pakistan started publishing photos so as to give a more concrete look than the imaginary we try to create when we hear news over a radio. Then there are venues where only the officials of such deptts. are allowed. So in that case, the officials are the only source to relay information to journalists or representatives of newspapers that are not there on the occasion. Generally, we used to cover events, take photos and then disseminate it to as many dailies as possible. Our main aim was to highlight the event regardless of the fact that journalists would usually write their own names with our written press releases. Perhaps Radio Pakistan is doing the same thing. Even though this was an airport and not a sensitive installation, but again the CAA would have requested media coverage from Radio Pakistan for the arrival of the investigation team. And Radio Pakistan who would have called reporters of their choice and also forwarded pictures to newspapers that maybe wanted to publish it.

Bhai thanks alot for your detailed post along with your first hand experience.
 
Sir I work in flight simulation, A320s are my main platforms. With all due respect, it does not work like that. Pilots need a sim check every few weeks to a month. A welcome back should include 2-3 days in the sims.

Hi,

I clearly understand what you are saying---but a clear verbal shakeup from the neckup always works wonders---.
 
Yes, that's why I said that either the landing gear wasn't deployed and no alarm set off, or pilot forgot to deploy landing gear (and again no alarm set off)

In both the cases, it's understandable to not declare emergency. The youtube videos I have watched where the pilots go for belly landing knowingly, this is what the landing looks like from inside the cabin.. which the survived guy didn't mention. What I am amazed about is that even the second time the passengers were not notified to brace for impact and we see landing gear deployed in the final moments of the plane.


If you go through this video, there is a mention of over one hour of struggle and multiple rounds to deploy the failed landing gear and only after that the pilot decided to go for belly landing. Sadly, this wasn't witnessed in this case..
In Pakistan case, it seems pilot negligence. .... lowering landing gear issue is not first time in PIA history .. our pilots did many times, how extreme lack of professionalism.

Discussion link
https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/632693-pia-a320-crash-karachi-16.html

 
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Doesn't A320's alert system warn the pilot that the landing gears are not lowered when landing?

Most intl experts felt that, because the brain has a finite attn span, the pilot became so involved with fixing the botched (too high/too fast) approach that his situation awareness (SA) was severely hampered in the last few minutes --- therefore his brain didn't register the warnings/alerts. This has happened before too.
 
These matters are looked at during the official investigation.
Also why the pilot was coming so hot and high.
Was there an equipment malfunction?
There are always many reasons of a plane crash, not just one.
an equipment malfunction.
Is a possibility which I am contemplating
From day one and for some reason no one
seems to be giving it a thought?
Either the pilot was out of his mind
Or
He relied on a faulty data provided to him
by the aircraft. And not the ATC.
I have a commercial pilot license which I got in early 90s I have almost forgotten everything but I wouldn't have made such a mistake on that day that's why it's so hard for me to stomach such a monumental
error by such a seasoned pilot though it's possible we are human beings we can
lose our minds seldom but it's possible.
 
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PIA8303 had a descent of over 7000 ft/min on Friday
Altitude graph:
20200522-0-G-1.jpg

Source: Aviation Safety Network
https://aviation-safety.net/photo/10639/Airbus-A320-214-AP-BLD

More 5500+ ft/min descents of PIA at Karachi airport in May 2020:

May 17- The very same Aircraft, PIA 8303 . 30,574 ft to 13,575 ft in 3 min . Descent rate of 5633 ft/min.
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/PIA8303/history/20200517/0754Z/OPLA/OPKC/tracklog

May 21
- PIA 8309 - 16725 to 11150 ft in 1 min. 5500 ft/min descent.
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/PIA8309/history/20200521/0740Z/OPIS/OPKC/tracklog

Since the crash, the descent rates are more stable at a consistent sub 2500 ft/min.
This goes well beyond a one time pilot error.
Given these past approaches of PIA flights , the PIA 8303 crash being pilot error just shifts the responsibility form the PIA maintenance department to the PIA Human Resource department.
PIA has the responsibility to train their flight crews, monitor their performance and to enforce standards.
 
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it is very easy to put the blame on dead..because they cannot defend.... investigation has been diverted toward pilot errors from day one and it was all started from the last few moments audio conversation released witin few hours of incident between ATC and pilot.
.team of investagtors are also questionable so...
PIA has a long track record of technical issues in past how many have been punished?
1 so investigation should be carried out through international investigators
2 who is responsible for first time landing gear problem?
3 if the landing gears were not in position why ATC did't informed it to pilot? and why allowed it to land?
frankely i am feeling this investigation has ended even before it started through intentionally creation of pilot error narrative

The local pilots body has said that they will not accept a biased probe.

Not much can be hidden given that all comms are recorded (in the tower and in the blackbox; pls keep in mind that the leaked audio is just small snippets) and there are survivors who can shed more light on the sequence of events. Finally, there will be airport CCTV footage.

All international observers believe it is pilot error for the following reasons:
-too high/too fast for the initial approach; warned thrice by ATC (this has been confirmed by altitude readings)

-forgot to lower the landing gear (if the landing wasn't lowering due to a technical glitch, obviously the pilot would/should have informed the tower that he was going to go for a belly/crash landing --- in which case there is a special foam and other arrangements made on the runway by the ground staff)

-went for a go-around despite scraping engines multiple times on the runway (confirmed by survivor, pictorial evidence of the plane and runway markings.)

This does not mean that the ATC also didn't fail in some of its responsibilities and everybody who was found to have been lacking in the dispensing of their duties should be punished --- but the primarily responsibility for the plane and its safety in situations like this (where no other air traffic is involved and all on-the-ground conditions are clear ofr the pilot) rests with the Captain of the aircraft.

Peace.

an equipment malfunction.
Is a possibility which I am contemplating
From day one and for some reason no one
seems to be giving it a thought?
Either the pilot was out of his mind
Or
He relied on a faulty data provided to him
by the aircraft. And not the ATC.
I have a commercial pilot license which I got in early 90s I have almost forgotten everything but I wouldn't have made such a mistake on that day that's why it's so hard for me to stomach such a monumental
error by such a seasoned pilot though it's possible we are human beings we can
lose our minds seldom but it's possible.

Almost all crashes are due to highly unlikely events --- therefore, however unlikely it is, it is still a possibility that the pilot --- whose situation awareness (SA) was totally consumed by fixing the botched approach (too high/too fast) forgot to lower the landing gear. After all, however remote the possibility, this has happened in the past.

PIA8303 had a descent of over 7000 ft/min on Friday
Altitude graph:
20200522-0-G-1.jpg

Source: Aviation Safety Network
https://aviation-safety.net/photo/10639/Airbus-A320-214-AP-BLD

More 5500+ ft/min descents of PIA at Karachi airport in May 2020:

May 17- The very same Aircraft, PIA 8303 . 30,574 ft to 13,575 ft in 3 min . Descent rate of 5633 ft/min.
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/PIA8303/history/20200517/0754Z/OPLA/OPKC/tracklog

May 21
- PIA 8309 - 16725 to 11150 ft in 1 min. 5500 ft/min descent.
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/PIA8309/history/20200521/0740Z/OPIS/OPKC/tracklog

Since the crash, the descent rates are more stable at a consistent sub 2500 ft/min.
This goes well beyond a one time pilot error.
Given these past approaches of PIA flights , the PIA 8303 crash being pilot error just shifts the responsibility form the PIA maintenance department to the PIA Human Resource department.
PIA has the responsibility to train their flight crews, monitor their performance and to enforce standards.

Exactly --- even pilot error comes back directly to the management.

My father's friend failed this pilot THRICE in his evaluations --- but somehow he eventually passed and started flying.

It's looking more and more like a pilot error bringing it too hot and high, a docile/submissive "yes-sir" co-pilot not pro-actively monitoring the situation and calling for a go-around, a passive/submissive ATC not exercising his authority to decline clearance for landing while seeing the plane was too hot and high to safely land.

What's needed is a change in mind-set, the pilot might be experienced and senior but there is a reason why there are two pilots in the cockpit, if the second one has to stay quiet and go along with anything the main pilot does, then he is not doing his job and is not needed in the cockpit.

Maybe there is a need to review/modify the protocols for take-off and landing with co-pilot taking more assertive role. ATC's own the airspace and GC's own the runways, they need to be more authoritative and assertive and should be able to call shots, when they see that the conditions are not right for the planes to take-off or land safely.

The cultural aspect is HUGE. In the past, a Korean Air flight was doomed similarly because certain cultural/respect-based elements prohibited the ATC and/or the co-pilot (I'm forgetting which) from properly identifying the situation as a proper emergency.

Moreover, pilots often feel embarrassed if they mess up the first approach and have to initiate a go-around (and may even be reviewed for the hot approach) --- so there is even more unsaid 'pressure' on the pilot to try and force a landing the first time. It's ridiculous.
 
The local pilots body has said that they will not accept a biased probe.

Not much can be hidden given that all comms are recorded (in the tower and in the blackbox; pls keep in mind that the leaked audio is just small snippets) and there are survivors who can shed more light on the sequence of events. Finally, there will be airport CCTV footage.

All international observers believe it is pilot error for the following reasons:
-too high/too fast for the initial approach; warned thrice by ATC (this has been confirmed by altitude readings)

-forgot to lower the landing gear (if the landing wasn't lowering due to a technical glitch, obviously the pilot would/should have informed the tower that he was going to go for a belly/crash landing --- in which case there is a special foam and other arrangements made on the runway by the ground staff)

-went for a go-around despite scraping engines multiple times on the runway (confirmed by survivor, pictorial evidence of the plane and runway markings.)

This does not mean that the ATC failed in some of its responsibilities and everybody who was found to have been lacking in the dispensing of their duties should be punished --- but the primarily responsibility for the plane and its safety in situations like this (where no other air traffic is involved and all on-the-ground conditions are clear ofr the pilot) rests with the Captain of the aircraft.

Peace.



Almost all crashes are due to highly unlikely events --- therefore, however unlikely it is, it is still a possibility that the pilot --- whose situation awareness (SA) was totally consumed by fixing the botched approach (too high/too fast) forgot to lower the landing gear. After all, however remote the possibility, this has happened in the past.



Exactly --- even pilot error comes back directly to the management.

My father's friend failed this pilot THRICE in his evaluations --- but somehow he eventually passed and started flying.
The question is did he botch that approach
due to his confused mindset or due to relying on a faulty data set ? A "proper" analysis of the flight data recorder may shed some light on this question.
 
The question is did he botch that approach
due to his confused mindset or due to relying on a faulty data set ? A "proper" analysis of the flight data recorder may shed some light on this question.

Totally get what you're saying --- though it seems unlikely that his altimeter, airspeed meter and his landing gear indicator all were faulty (provided that the plane just flew to Muscat and back the day before the crash.)
 
PIA8303 had a descent of over 7000 ft/min on Friday
Altitude graph:
20200522-0-G-1.jpg

Source: Aviation Safety Network
https://aviation-safety.net/photo/10639/Airbus-A320-214-AP-BLD

More 5500+ ft/min descents of PIA at Karachi airport in May 2020:

May 17- The very same Aircraft, PIA 8303 . 30,574 ft to 13,575 ft in 3 min . Descent rate of 5633 ft/min.
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/PIA8303/history/20200517/0754Z/OPLA/OPKC/tracklog

May 21
- PIA 8309 - 16725 to 11150 ft in 1 min. 5500 ft/min descent.
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/PIA8309/history/20200521/0740Z/OPIS/OPKC/tracklog

Since the crash, the descent rates are more stable at a consistent sub 2500 ft/min.
This goes well beyond a one time pilot error.
Given these past approaches of PIA flights , the PIA 8303 crash being pilot error just shifts the responsibility form the PIA maintenance department to the PIA Human Resource department.
PIA has the responsibility to train their flight crews, monitor their performance and to enforce standards.
I'm wondering if the decision to fly at a higher altitude has to do with reducing costs? If it is; this would be on the management.
 

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