Pakistan's Identity Crisis: Can it explain itself without India?

[Fahad20007]

Yes, but the issue isn't so much explaining that Pakistan isn't an offshoot of India, but the inability of us Pakistanis to acknowledge our shared history with Afghans, Persians and to an extent Arabs and Greeks.

The lands that comprise Pakistan were separate from India's core a few times in history, but were extensions of domains from the west. India has a right to this connection too as the growth of these domains enveloped most of the Subcontinent.

However, both "Pakistan" and "India" as modern constructs are a creation of the British in 1947. Neither can go around claiming "we are we, you are we" because the formation of these modern states was externally caused. But if left to their own devices, I suspect a similar arrangement to the following could've potentially occurred. So a state resembling current-day Pakistan may have happened, or we may have seen even smaller more homogenous states in South Asia.

Greco-Bactrian Kingdom - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Ghaznavids - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Mamluk dynasty (Delhi) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Delhi Sultanate - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

A large problem with this thinking is that most Pakistanis think Ghaznavids, Mughals and Delhi sultanate equals Pashtuns. Pashtun supremacists like IndusPakistan like to further that sentiment.

If Pakistan is to connect with its Central Asian legacy, it must acknowledge the Dari speakers of Afghanistan, such as the Uzbeks and Tajiks, which is where Babur, Mahmud Ghazni and Ghori originate from. And henceforth connect with the Central Asian nations. You cannot do that if you're imposing Pashtun supremacists like the Taliban on them.

 

[Maula Jatt]

A large problem with this thinking is that most Pakistanis think Ghaznavids, Mughals and Delhi sultanate equals Pashtuns. Pashtun supremacists like IndusPakistan like to further that sentiment.

If Pakistan is to connect with its Central Asian legacy, it must acknowledge the Dari speakers of Afghanistan, such as the Uzbeks and Tajiks, which is where Babur, Mahmud Ghazni and Ghori originate from. And henceforth connect with the Central Asian nations. You cannot do that if you're imposing Pashtun supremacists like the Taliban on them.

Wasn't indus Pakistani Sindhi though?

 

[Fahad20007]

Wasn't indus Pakistani Sindhi though?

The boomer claims he's Pashtun, but looks more like a super tanned Mirpuri/Haripuri cousin of Jan Rambo or Awais Lovely.

 

[Maula Jatt]

The boomer claims he's Pashtun, but looks more like a super tanned Mirpuri/Haripuri cousin of Jan Rambo or Awais Lovely.

Ever saw young Jan Rambo?
He was a good looking mofo

He is a product of the ethnic toxic s**** that is Karachi, what can I say?

 

[Chhatrapati]

A lot of things in one comment, but I will try:

"Feel instead of addressing your own issues ............ " > No issues at all on my side. The day I came to know the differences and origins of Indos/Indica/India, Hindustan, Hind, British India, Republic of India and Bharat/Bharat Versh, it was a damn good day. I've been putting you fellow-brethren up to sword since

"We dont rename cities ......... " > Yap, get your identity back as Bharat not European, Persian, or Arab given identity.

"Why are so invested in our internal politics? That in itself shows your identity crisis ............. " > I am pretty sure that you are the neighbour poking your nose in PDF PAKISTAN Defense Forum on a topic for Pakistanis; that's obsession mate

The usual chest thumping... "Im stronk"...

Its not like we claim to be Arab, Turk or Vikings. Whats your problem in calling it India? Its simply how others identified us. A quadrilateral shaped land beyond the river Indus. Arabs are hardly ever known in those days when the name was in common use among travellers.

I do enjoy reading your delusions of grandeur together with the gems we copy from PDF to laugh about it later. And I wasn't talking from a forum level, but your government, prime minister and his cabinet. They represent your country and they're invested too much in our politics. Which is rather embarrassing but then again who are we talking about

 

[Bawag]

The usual chest thumping... "Im stronk"...

Its not like we claim to be Arab, Turk or Vikings. Whats your problem in calling it India? Its simply how others identified us. A quadrilateral shaped land beyond the river Indus. Arabs are hardly ever known in those days when the name was in common use among travellers.

I do enjoy reading your delusions of grandeur together with the gems we copy from PDF to laugh about it later. And I wasn't talking from a forum level, but your government, prime minister and his cabinet. They represent your country and they're invested too much in our politics. Which is rather embarrassing but then again who are we talking about

1. "Its not like we claim to be Arab, Turk or Vikings. Whats your problem in calling it India? .................. " No problem on myside; we don't want your delusions to be framed on us.
2. "Its simply how others identified us." > It's how conquerors labelled you not identified you
3. "we copy from PDF to laugh about it later" > keep laughing mate
4. "I wasn't talking from a forum level, but your government, prime minister and his cabinet ................ " > again how and why it concerns you and to the people of "India"?
5. "Which is rather embarrassing but then again who are we talking about" > LMAO RIGHT!!!!!!!!!

 

[Chhatrapati]

1. "Its not like we claim to be Arab, Turk or Vikings. Whats your problem in calling it India? .................. " No problem on myside; we don't want your delusions to be framed on us.
2. "Its simply how others identified us." > It's how conquerors labelled you not identified you
3. "we copy from PDF to laugh about it later" > keep laughing mate
4. "I wasn't talking from a forum level, but your government, prime minister and his cabinet ................ " > again how and why it concerns you and to the people of "India"?
5. "Which is rather embarrassing but then again who are we talking about" > LMAO RIGHT!!!!!!!!!

Unfortunately no, it's how traders identified us. Throughout history we dispelled Roman, Iranian invaders before complete invasions happened. Let me ask you where does history starts for you? Clearly you seem to think it starts with Qasim. As for how your PM talking about our internal politics concern us, it should concern you atleast as if being a failure is not enough he is stuck with obsessing over India. And you're right, you folks will happily drink the kool aid think yeah India is "such and such" so all is well.

 

[SaadH]

First thing we should have done after gaining independence from the British was to have carried out policies which would have restored the order that was in place when they took with some palpable reforms to rectify the situation which led to their take over.

One of the first things we should have done was to have restored farsi as the lingua franca in place of English which was the case before the British did everything to destroy it and promoted urdu/hindi in order to rid our access and connection to Muslims of nearby regions.

With Farsi as a spoken language in Pakistan we would have looked at Iranian culture, literature and art for inspiration and ideas and more importantly to our own vast body of art and literature in Farsi, 2/3 of Iqbal's body of work is in Farsi.

 

[FuturePAF]

First thing we should have done after gaining independence from the British was to have carried out policies which would have restored the order that was in place when they took with some palpable reforms to rectify the situation which led to their take over.

One of the first things we should have done was to have restored farsi as the lingua franca in place of English which was the case before the British did everything to destroy it and promoted urdu/hindi in order to rid our access and connection to Muslims of nearby regions.

With Farsi as a spoken language in Pakistan we would have looked at Iranian culture, literature and art for inspiration and ideas and more importantly to our own vast body of art and literature in Farsi, 2/3 of Iqbal's body of work is in Farsi.

Farsi was probably seen as elitist (members of my own family , men and women, learned and spoke Farsi up to a university level, so I don’t have anything against Farsi), much the same way English was seen, but even more so with Farsi. Even Urdu got push back because half the nation spoke Bengali.

50 years Post-1971, Urdu has become the Lingua Franca, for better or worse. We should work with what is ours more so then adopting what most will perceive as foreign.

 

[SaadH]

Farsi was probably seen as elitist (members of my own family , men and women, learned and spoke Farsi up to a university level, so I don’t have anything against Farsi), much the same way English was seen, but even more so with Farsi. Even Urdu got push back because half the nation spoke Bengali.

50 years Post-1971, Urdu has become the Lingua Franca, for better or worse. We should work with what is ours more so then adopting what most will perceive as foreign.

For all intents and purposes our lingua franca is not Urdu, it is English. And even Urdu is getting anglicized due to it's limited vocabulary for it hasn't been evolved to align with changing times and technology. We are slowly replacing words in urdu that exist and have been used for generations with English words, leave alone adding new words to Urdu vocabulary to account for new realities, something that all living and thriving languages do. Watch any news talk show in Urdu or read any Urdu language papers and articles, a large number of words being spoken/written are in English, even though an equivalent exist and has been used for centuries if not longer. Read any road/billboard and store signs in Pakistan it's mostly all Nastaliq English, Store, Surgery, Road, Emergency, General etc. etc. are all spelled in Nastaliq English.

Urdu is a dying language, better to commit the coup de grace and adopt a language that's has rich history, wider network, alive/thriving and spoken in more than one country. One which has a common ancestry with Urdu and is not all that alien to our senses, i.e. Farsi.

Urdu much like all other local dialects can exist in the shadows.

Oh BTW, can someone name a great Urdu poet since Faraz?

 

[FuturePAF]

For all intents and purposes our lingua franca is not Urdu, it is English. And even Urdu is getting anglicized due to it's limited vocabulary for it hasn't been evolved to align with changing times and technology. We are slowly replacing words in urdu that exist and have been used for generations with English words, leave alone adding new words to Urdu vocabulary to account for new realities, something that all living and thriving languages do. Watch any news talk show in Urdu or read any Urdu language papers and articles, a large number of words being spoken/written are in English, even though an equivalent exist and has been used for centuries if not longer. Read any road/billboard and store signs in Pakistan it's mostly all Nastaliq English, Store, Surgery, Road, Emergency, General etc. etc. are all spelled in Nastaliq English.

Urdu is a dying language, better to commit the coup de grace and adopt a language that's has rich history, wider network, alive/thriving and spoken in more than one country. One which has a common ancestry with Urdu and is not all that alien to our senses, i.e. Farsi.

Urdu much like all other local dialects can exist in the shadows.

Oh BTW, can someone name a great Urdu poet since Faraz?

But will people adopt it short of a massive organized and decades long commitment to the endeavor. The state barely keeps any policies government to government, much less an organized cultural shift, intentionally.

 

[Maira La]

...are they not both part of the broader European civilization, claiming roots in distant lands of Greece and Rome? is the distance between Islamabad and Delhi not half of Athens and Berlin, lesser than Paris and Rome?

Just because you chose a Punjabi city as your capital (followed by mass migration) doesn't mean entire India is same people and culture as Pakistan's Punjab. Most of you are just black adivasis.

 

[AgnosticIndian]

Most of you are just black adivasis.

what's with this focus on skin colour and nativity? comes off as very insecure. have some self-respect man.
but anyway, you can choose some black adivasi city like Bhopal or Jaipur or Bareli or Lucknow and the distance will still be lower.

 

[Maira La]

what's with this focus on skin colour and nativity? comes off as very insecure. have some self-respect man.
but anyway, you can choose some black adivasi city like Bhopal or Jaipur or Bareli or Lucknow and the distance will still be lower.

It's the Thar desert that restricted geneflow between Pakistani and North India, regardless of distance. See how different North Africans and Sub-Saharan Africans look despite being on the same continent, thanks to the desert between them.

If skin color talks bother you so much why do you follow a religion that maintains and promotes caste system? Dumb hypocrites.

 

[Maula Jatt]

It's the Thar desert that restricted geneflow between Pakistani and North India, regardless of distance. See how different North Africans and Sub-Saharan Africans look despite being on the same continent, thanks to the desert between them.

If skin color talks bother you so much why do you follow a religion that maintains and promotes caste system? Dumb hypocrites.

His name is Agnostic Indian though... just saying