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Pakistan receives LD-10 Anti-radiation missiles

A JF-17 would be picked up pretty near to 400 km. It is not a particularly stealthy target. If its low flying it may reduce to around a 300 km pick up range or so. Even the legacy E-3 sentry can do this quite comfortably.

We are specifically talking about low-RCS low flying bogies here.
where did the e3 come from india has the a-50 and the swedish one.
really around 400km? sure 400 km for a su-27/j-11 variant with tanks the armaments but not for a jf-17 more like 300km,
do note this plane is around the size of your tejas for perspective here. and when later variants have greater composite components then your looking at 250km best case.
 
By the way the links u posted above talk of DETECTION not TRACKING....

A voyeur trying to see neighbours wife may be able to detect a low flying cruise missile with naked eye...
Do you think that represent a reliable defence ???

Like I said, there are many sampling burst methods available to an AESA, optimised even on the basis of the initial detection.

Just like the carrier killer missile tech, stealthy low flying cruise missiles are no superweapon that cannot be countered.

Everything is cat and mouse.....and with Indian GDP growing the way it is....there is going to be a lot more cat than mouse in the long term.

Only when you have somewhat similar resources on both sides can assymetric warfare really produce a long term winnier like it did in the case of the US and USSR (e.g how the AGM-86B wreaked havoc on the resources the USSR had to put to countering it which made their top heavy centralised economy reach the tipping point).

where did the e3 come from india has the a-50 and the swedish one.
really around 400km? sure 400 km for a su-27/j-11 variant with tanks the armaments but not for a jf-17 more like 300km,
do note this plane is around the size of your tejas for perspective here. and when later variants have greater composite components then your looking at 250km best case.

Its an AESA, sustained solid tracking would be within the 300 km range like you said....but burst methods will provide tracking in the 300 - 400 km range at large CL's....I can assure you that.

Anyway we are discussing really low RCS targets among clutter like terrain hugging cruise missiles here. The exact performance envelope of the phalcon radar and the modules it has to augment various capabilities are all secret here.

I brought in the E-3 as a reference of a legacy system (and you can look up its performance envelope relatively easily). An airbourne AESA would only improve upon it.....how much so remains to be speculated....but with what I know personally it is quite substantial given what has been developed since the 80s/90s.
 
Just like the carrier killer missile tech, stealthy low flying cruise missiles are no superweapon that cannot be countered

Actually i agree with this one ... no technology is perfect...

By the way i would looove to hear about your counters for carier killer missile ,, df 21d u r talking about??
 
Last three items are interesting. All for (S20) Type 041 subs including Anti Ship missile. The order was in 2014 then I think it is safe to assume that the deal for these subs was signed either in 2014 or before 2014.
I recall that the deal was signed in 2011 when the prime minister at that time visited China.. but not many people here will believe it, eventhough it was big news (most probably for 6 and then another 2 afterwards/ later on)..
 
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Actually i agree with this one ... no technology is perfect...

By the way i would looove to hear about your counters for carier killer missile ,, df 21d u r talking about??

Well the "counters" stem more from capability holes in targetting blue water carrier groups or blue water targets in general.

These carrier groups will have to be allowed to be detected initially by some source and then guidance looped with dedicated C4I so that a carrier killer can get to the vicinity. This incoming missile would also be detected at some point rendering itself open to interception in a myriad of ways by the battle group....not to mention the final tracking and guidance requirements to account for battle group evasion tactics and launched EM/thermal countermeasures.

Basically there are many loops it will have to pass through to get a kill. Again it will be quite cat and mouse....nothing 100% absolute established....since you have a striving opposite force that is not going to let everything you plan go according to plan.

You can ask @Penguin and @Olaf One-Brow and others about it...they can add their inputs on what they think.

Example:

https://defence.pk/threads/pralay-new-missile-in-development.445351/page-3#post-8602553

Also please remember that PAF and Pakistan will (similar to India in defensive mindset) be testing their Cruise missile tactics and strategy with their own AWACS assets to see how best to evade them with offensive mindset ;) ...something India will also do likewise.

It is not a zero-sum fool proof game on either side in this matter. Everyone will hedge as best they can and scale up the successful lessons as best they can too.
 
Its an AESA, sustained solid tracking would be within the 300 km range like you said....but burst methods will provide tracking in the 300 - 400 km range at large CL's....I can assure you that.

Anyway we are discussing really low RCS targets among clutter like terrain hugging cruise missiles here. The exact performance envelope of the phalcon radar and the modules it has to augment various capabilities are all secret here.

I brought in the E-3 as a reference of a legacy system (and you can look up its performance envelope relatively easily). An airbourne AESA would only improve upon it.....how much so remains to be speculated....but with what I know personally it is quite substantial given what has been developed since the 80s/90s.
i know what the e-3 is............ actually im sure the saudis have e-3's, infact they do and they are powered by the cfm-56's
E-3_SAUDI-960x400.jpg

what are the chances they come to the sky's near you? i mean would they say no?
infact they do have plenty of muslim "brothers" to get some very juicy kit.
anyway moving on...........
burst/pluse waves are high energy death sentances as the waves would go to and possibly beyond 400km where the adversary would get its signature and would spoof it. thinking of that awacs from both side would be opperating in conditions where there is high cyberware enviroments. and neither side knows what the other side has up their sleeves.
after listening to pakistan acm he said they are moving beyond 5th gen which means......... ucavs and what the dectection range of one of those? your talking 100km
 
what are the chances they come to the sky's near you? i mean would they say no?

RSAF kit is useless without the NATO operators...who definitely will not be attending. Besides that is all a hypothetical situation anyway and bears no relevance to India's own AWACs defense matrix.

I am using AWACs (E-3) here as a moniker for all AEW&C systems of course....since it set the naming rights like Xerox etc. did. I don't actually mean they original physical system in these scenarios I am talking about (other than when I'm talking about the reference performance we can expect to be improved upon by an AESA)

burst/pluse waves are high energy death sentances as the waves would go to and possibly beyond 400km where the adversary would get its signature and would spoof it. thinking of that awacs from both side would be opperating in conditions where there is high cyberware enviroments. and neither side knows what the other side has up their sleeves.
after listening to pakistan acm he said they are moving beyond 5th gen which means......... ucavs and what the dectection range of one of those? your talking 100km

I suggest you read up on how an AESA goes about doing this compared to a PESA. Amplitude peaks are substantially different....hence there is a much larger qualitative buffer over which an AESA can safely operate in burst mode compared to PESA.

Remember the IAF will test all of these ranges extensively and form operating doctrine appropriately.

Your 100 km number comes from which source? Does it account for newer gen AESA-only modules/modes and does it take into account what a formation of AESA aircraft (phalcon and drdo embraer) could do to improve detection ranges by multiple input streams through ISAR and all the other methods at their disposal?

Stand alone older gen numbers are a good base to start with, but what they specifically are now is anyones guess....other than "a lot better".....it would require a sensitivity study with data we do not have access to I am afraid (w.r.t RCS signature decrease of the bogies)
 
RSAF kit is useless without the NATO operators...who definitely will not be attending. Besides that is all a hypothetical situation anyway and bears no relevance to India's own AWACs defense matrix.

I am using AWACs (E-3) here as a moniker for all AEW&C systems of course....since it set the naming rights like Xerox etc. did. I don't actually mean they original physical system in these scenarios I am talking about (other than when I'm talking about the reference performance we can expect to be improved upon by an AESA)



I suggest you read up on how an AESA goes about doing this compared to a PESA. Amplitude peaks are substantially different....hence there is a much larger qualitative buffer over which an AESA can safely operate in burst mode compared to PESA.

Remember the IAF will test all of these ranges extensively and form operating doctrine appropriately.

Your 100 km number comes from which source? Does it account for newer gen AESA-only modules/modes and does it take into account what a formation of AESA aircraft (phalcon and drdo embraer) could do to improve detection ranges by multiple input streams through ISAR and all the other methods at their disposal?

Stand alone older gen numbers are a good base to start with, but what they specifically are now is anyones guess....other than "a lot better".....it would require a sensitivity study with data we do not have access to I am afraid (w.r.t RCS signature decrease of the bogies)
no really the saudis can use them when ever they want, but they can be intregated to nato's c and c if needed.

yes i do knonw that aesa radars are naturally more resisant to high electronic warfare enviroments

well if an f35 can with in 100km of an s400 then a smaller wingbody ucav would go with in 100km easily and that would be a conservative estimate. but thats at least 5 years away
 
You can ask @Penguin and @Olaf One-Brow and others about it...they can add their inputs on what they think.

If you're looking for an in-depth comment or quality insight you've come to the wrong American. If you'd like the recipe for a batch of wonderful chocolate chip cookies, I've got you covered:partay::

Ingredient:
- 2 1/4 cups (530 ml) flour
- 1 teaspoon (5 ml) salt
- 1 teaspoon (5 ml) baking soda
- 1 cup (240 ml) butter, softened but not melted (2 standard American sticks / 250 g)
- 3⁄4 cup (180 ml) packed brown sugar (165 g)
- 3⁄4 cup (180 ml) granulated sugar (or 150 g)
- 2 large eggs
- 1 teaspoon (5 ml) vanilla extract
- 1 to 2 cups (240 to 470 ml) chocolate chips (168 to 336 g)

Starter/Beginning:
1.Preheat the oven to 375°F/190°C.
2.In a medium bowl, combine flour, salt, and baking soda. To reduce clumpiness, sift through a sifter or sieve. Gently mix these together, then set the bowl aside.
3.In a large bowl, beat the butter and sugars together, then beat in eggs and vanilla extract, vanilla essence . The coarseness of the sugar granules will help break the butter down, so be sure to do this first. Then add the eggs and vanilla and mix again until completely combined.
4.Gradually a cup at a time add the dry ingredients from the medium bowl to the wet ingredients in the large bowl, then add chocolate chips. Pour a cup of the dry ingredients, stir, and repeat until the dry and wet ingredients are totally combined. Fold the chocolate chips in until fully incorporated. At this point you should have a moderately thick cookie dough.
- Do not over-stir the dough. While the dry ingredients should be added gradually, don’t do so little at a time that your dough turns to brick. Aim for adding the dry ingredients in four or five batches.
5.Drop spoonfuls of cookie dough onto a pre-greased or a lined baking sheet. Leave at least an inch of space between the cookies because they'll spread out when they bake. You can usually fit 12 cookies on a full-sized cookie sheet at a time
6.Bake for about 9 to 11 minutes or until light golden brown. Do not over bake; if you do the cookies will be dark brown and burnt. Remove the pan from the oven and let the cookies rest on the pan for 3-4 minutes.
7.Using a spatula, lift cookies off and place onto wax paper or a cooling rack. Let cool for about 5-7 minutes.
8.Eat when hot and steamy or cooled and slightly crisp. If you like you can pipe a small swirl of icing or whipping cream on top and add some sprinkles to make it look fancy.

You can ask @Penguin and @Olaf One-Brow and others about it...they can add their inputs on what they think.

Actually I'm just messing with you @Nilgiri :D.

@Mrc The United States is developing a wide variety of countermeasures and antidotes to lessen the effectives or completely degrade the operational capacity of the DF series of ASBMs.

These include electronic countermeasures, both offensive and defensive to either attack the targeting systems like OTH radars, remote sensing satellites, sea and subsurface sensors and airborne sensors operating as either a communications node or sensor themselves.

Keep in mind none of these types of long-range targeting options are new. Each was seen with the Soviet Union's long-range AShMs where either satellites, submarines or orbiting aircraft like TU-95 would act as either the eyes, relay or targeting platform for the missiles targeting US targets.

Tu-142M-1986-DN-SC-86-04171-DPLS.jpg


In addition to attacking the targeting, updating or tracking platforms, defense electronic support methods would include actions against he DF series missile's own sensors. If it has electronic components, it can be effected.

Offensive support options would be attacking the missiles themselves to damage or degrade launching mechanisms such as remote firing controls or warhead arming sequencers. Attacking command, control and communications capabilities could leave the battery blinded and deaf to OTH radars, satellites or any supporting asset that would be communicating targeting, tracking or updates to the battery. We could also effect the command structure of the military itself to send false intelligence, signals or commands.

Electronic support options are hardly the only methods that could be leveraged. The Standard Missile 3 was purpose built to degrade missiles of the DF series. These would include the shorter and longer ranged weapons as well. Future blocks of the SM-3, this being the SM-3 Block IIA. seen here during a test flight:

CTV-1-version-2.jpg


Are being built with ICBMs in mind. It has a range greater then existing blocks, in excess of 1500+km and a flight altitude approaching 800+km. This capability against long range missiles is being furthered with a new warhead called the Multi-Object Kill Vehicle.This is an older version of the MOKV. The current version is still classified.

Multiple%20Kill%20Vehicle_0.jpg


It is being developed to defeat MIRV warheads and decoys.

Moving back to the medium and intermediate ranged DF series, the DF-21 and DF-26, we see the SM-3 demonstrating the capability to defeat these classes of targets such as the E-lralt test vehicle.

LM_Air_Launch_Target.jpg


LV-2 as well. It's a Poseidon C-3 IRBM itself. It predated the Trident missile and rather then junk the stockpile, it has been converted into a ABM test vehicle.

_RAC2581_09-MDA-4861%20(28%20AUG%2009).jpg


It's a proven capability of SM-3.


SM-3 also has an ASAT capability, which serves as a hard-kill augment to soft kill options. I'd also like to highlight that despite the recent heralding of quantum communications and cryptography as secure and "hack proof", these forms of communication are vulnerable to hack attacks and this has been demonstrated:

https://defence.pk/threads/breakthr...adband-closer-to-reality.369704/#post-7025476

The "hack" may not be traditional in the sense we tend to think of when discussing computer security, but methods exist to degrade or defeat such types of communications and have been demonstrated as viable and effective. Beyond hacking there are alternative methods that can be used to either guess or replicate the keys used to encrypt messages. And this isn't to even get into COMSEC protocols of plain-text messages, since we humans can't read communications in their quantum state.

In case you weren't aware, I'm PDF's communications go-to member:partay:.

These are but a few of the options the US can leverage against a DF series AShM. Other methods such as stand-off engagements involving new doctrines like Cooperative Engagement Capability or Engage On Remote will also help the US Navy and Air Force engage adversaries at range. Ranges where the USN or USAF would have sufficient time to detect, track and engage countermeasures against hostile systems.

The USN's new E-2D has helped to demonstrate CEC and allow the SM-6 to maximize its range of 500+nm against missile and aircraft targets. Its range against surface ships is lower, but still at stand-off ranges. CEC allows a launching platform to leverage the sensors of allied assets for slewing, cueing, targeting and updates for OTH engagements. All without the launching platform needing to use its own sensors. In many respects its a modernized version of the Soviet relay system,

These are methods other navies could also leverage, though many, if not all are behind the US in this respect. But these are by no means the sole tricks the USN has or has developed. Both the US and Russia had ASBM programs and are familiar with them and their limitations, physics and capabilities.

For the US this was Pershing II.

Pershing_II_-_4th_test_launch.jpeg


The program was cancelled due to arms reduction treaties which pulled the Pershing II out of service.

Russia's program was the NATO designated SS-NX-13. It's also known as the R-27, a version of it anyway - the world's first ASBM - the same missile North Korea is attempting to arm a SSB with.

lo-loai-ten-lua-dan-dao-trieu-tien-moi-phong-xit-hinh-6-bb-baaacstshT.jpg


The DF series are known systems and the USN and peer nations have taken notice. Countermeasures, some old, some new are being developed or refined to meet the threat. These types of weapons aren't new. Their kill-chain is similar to the Soviet Navy relay system used on long-range anti-ship weapons, especially those fired by SSG or SSGNs.

Juliett_484_sub.jpg


They are familiar and they can be defeated with familiar options. But they are a threat that we take seriously and a lot of resources and minds are being put to defeating them, whether the threat is realized or not, we will ensure we are prepared to meet it.

...

We've also got a bit off topic. If you'd like my input, feel free to ask however.
 
Last edited:
If you're looking for an in-depth comment or quality insight you've come to the wrong American. If you'd like the recipe for a batch of wonderful chocolate chip cookies, I've got you covered:partay::

Ingredient:
- 2 1/4 cups (530 ml) flour
- 1 teaspoon (5 ml) salt
- 1 teaspoon (5 ml) baking soda
- 1 cup (240 ml) butter, softened but not melted (2 standard American sticks / 250 g)
- 3⁄4 cup (180 ml) packed brown sugar (165 g)
- 3⁄4 cup (180 ml) granulated sugar (or 150 g)
- 2 large eggs
- 1 teaspoon (5 ml) vanilla extract
- 1 to 2 cups (240 to 470 ml) chocolate chips (168 to 336 g)

Starter/Beginning:
1.Preheat the oven to 375°F/190°C.
2.In a medium bowl, combine flour, salt, and baking soda. To reduce clumpiness, sift through a sifter or sieve. Gently mix these together, then set the bowl aside.
3.In a large bowl, beat the butter and sugars together, then beat in eggs and vanilla extract, vanilla essence . The coarseness of the sugar granules will help break the butter down, so be sure to do this first. Then add the eggs and vanilla and mix again until completely combined.
4.Gradually a cup at a time add the dry ingredients from the medium bowl to the wet ingredients in the large bowl, then add chocolate chips. Pour a cup of the dry ingredients, stir, and repeat until the dry and wet ingredients are totally combined. Fold the chocolate chips in until fully incorporated. At this point you should have a moderately thick cookie dough.
- Do not over-stir the dough. While the dry ingredients should be added gradually, don’t do so little at a time that your dough turns to brick. Aim for adding the dry ingredients in four or five batches.
5.Drop spoonfuls of cookie dough onto a pre-greased or a lined baking sheet. Leave at least an inch of space between the cookies because they'll spread out when they bake. You can usually fit 12 cookies on a full-sized cookie sheet at a time
6.Bake for about 9 to 11 minutes or until light golden brown. Do not over bake; if you do the cookies will be dark brown and burnt. Remove the pan from the oven and let the cookies rest on the pan for 3-4 minutes.
7.Using a spatula, lift cookies off and place onto wax paper or a cooling rack. Let cool for about 5-7 minutes.
8.Eat when hot and steamy or cooled and slightly crisp. If you like you can pipe a small swirl of icing or whipping cream on top and add some sprinkles to make it look fancy.



Actually I'm just messing with you @Nilgiri :D.

@Mrc The United States is developing a wide variety of countermeasures and antidotes to lessen the effectives or completely degrade the operational capacity of the DF series of ASBMs.

These include electronic countermeasures, both offensive and defensive to either attack the targeting systems like OTH radars, remote sensing satellites, sea and subsurface sensors and airborne sensors operating as either a communications node or sensor themselves.

Keep in mind none of these types of long-range targeting options are new. Each was seen with the Soviet Union's long-range AShMs where either satellites, submarines or orbiting aircraft like TU-95 would act as either the eyes, relay or targeting platform for the missiles targeting US targets.

Tu-142M-1986-DN-SC-86-04171-DPLS.jpg


In addition to attacking the targeting, updating or tracking platforms, defense electronic support methods would include actions against he DF series missile's own sensors. If it has electronic components, it can be effected.

Offensive support options would be attacking the missiles themselves to damage or degrade launching mechanisms such as remote firing controls or warhead arming sequencers. Attacking command, control and communications capabilities could leave the battery blinded and deaf to OTH radars, satellites or any supporting asset that would be communicating targeting, tracking or updates to the battery. We could also effect the command structure of the military itself to send false intelligence, signals or commands.

Electronic support options are hardly the only methods that could be leveraged. The Standard Missile 3 was purpose built to degrade missiles of the DF series. These would include the shorter and longer ranged weapons as well. Future blocks of the SM-3, this being the SM-3 Block IIA. seen here during a test flight:

CTV-1-version-2.jpg


Are being built with ICBMs in mind. It has a range greater then existing blocks, in excess of 1500+km and a flight altitude approaching 800+km. This capability against long range missiles is being furthered with a new warhead called the Multi-Object Kill Vehicle.This is an older version of the MOKV. The current version is still classified.

Multiple%20Kill%20Vehicle_0.jpg


It is being developed to defeat MIRV warheads and decoys.

Moving back to the medium and intermediate ranged DF series, the DF-21 and DF-26, we see the SM-3 demonstrating the capability to defeat these classes of targets such as the E-lralt test vehicle.

LM_Air_Launch_Target.jpg


LV-2 as well. It's a Poseidon C-3 IRBM itself. It predated the Trident missile and rather then junk the stockpile, it has been converted into a ABM test vehicle.

_RAC2581_09-MDA-4861%20(28%20AUG%2009).jpg


It's a proven capability of SM-3.


SM-3 also has an ASAT capability, which serves as a hard-kill augment to soft kill options. I'd also like to highlight that despite the recent heralding of quantum communications and cryptography as secure and "hack proof", these forms of communication are vulnerable to hack attacks and this has been demonstrated:

https://defence.pk/threads/breakthr...adband-closer-to-reality.369704/#post-7025476

The "hack" may not be traditional in the sense we tend to think of when discussing computer security, but methods exist to degrade or defeat such types of communications and have been demonstrated as viable and effective. Beyond hacking there are alternative methods that can be used to either guess or replicate the keys used to encrypt messages. And this isn't to even get into COMSEC protocols of plain-text messages, since we humans can't read communications in their quantum state.

In case you weren't aware, I'm PDF's communications go-to member:partay:.

These are but a few of the options the US can leverage against a DF series AShM. Other methods such as stand-off engagements involving new doctrines like Cooperative Engagement Capability or Engage On Remote will also help the US Navy and Air Force engage adversaries at range. Ranges where the USN or USAF would have sufficient time to detect, track and engage countermeasures against hostile systems.

The USN's new E-2D has helped to demonstrate CEC and allow the SM-6 to maximize its range of 500+nm against missile and aircraft targets. Its range against surface ships is lower, but still at stand-off ranges. CEC allows a launching platform to leverage the sensors of allied assets for slewing, cueing, targeting and updates for OTH engagements. All without the launching platform needing to use its own sensors. In many respects its a modernized version of the Soviet relay system,

These are methods other navies could also leverage, but are by no means the sole tricks the USN has or has developed. Both the US and Russia had ASBM programs and are familiar with them and their limitations, physics and capabilities.

For the US this was Pershing II.

Pershing_II_-_4th_test_launch.jpeg


The program was cancelled due to arms reduction treaties which pulled the Pershing II out of service.

Russia's program was the NATO designated SS-NX-13. It's also known as the R-27, a version of it anyway - the world's first ASBM - the same missile North Korea is attempting to arm a SSB with.

lo-loai-ten-lua-dan-dao-trieu-tien-moi-phong-xit-hinh-6-bb-baaacstshT.jpg


The DF series are known systems and the USN and peer nations have taken notice. Countermeasures, some old, some new are being developed or refined to meet the threat. These types of weapons aren't new. Their kill-chain is similar to the Soviet Navy relay system used on long-range anti-ship weapons, especially those fired by SSG or SSGNs.

Juliett_484_sub.jpg


They are familiar and they can be defeated with familiar options. But they are a threat that we take seriously and a lot of resources and minds are being put to defeating them, whether the threat is realized or not, we will ensure we are prepared to meet it.

...

We've also got a bit off topic. If you'd like my input, feel free to ask however.

I always like a dash of cinnamon in my C-C cookies :P Last time I made em, I used oatmeal as the base too....turned out great!
 
I always like a dash of cinnamon in my C-C cookies :P Last time I made em, I used oatmeal as the base too....turned out great!

Not big into cinnamon myself, though a rum base goes nicely:partay:, but oatmeal is the only way they should be made.

Damn we're off topic:bunny:.
 
Not big into cinnamon myself, though a rum base goes nicely:partay:, but oatmeal is the only way they should be made.

Damn we're off topic:bunny:.

Yeah rum! I find grand marnier also adds a nice accent esp if you use a cpl macadamia nuts and white chocolate bits.

Can't wait till winter and I have more free time to get baking more :P
 
Once you have destroyed the radar then rest is easy .
I agree, follow a SEAD mission by DEAD mission, however, Point is redundancy.

1. 5 X S-400 firing units acquired with 5 radar systems. 2 firing units/radars were placed in position to threaten PAF. Both taken out by PAF by SEAD mission (meaning just radar/guidance system taken out). IAF moved 2 more radar system from the remaining 3 to give coverage again.

Suppose PAF takes out these 2 radar systems also. S-400 is useless. It can also happen that IAF withdraws S-400 from reach of PAF and uses the remaining 3 firing units/systems as concentrated AD umbrella protecting VVIP assets like nuclear installation etc.

2. But if a redundant system( S-400 integrated with any other IAF radar, though shorter in range) is in place, S-400 capability maybe reduced but it will be operational.
 
Not entirely sure, but phalcon sized AWACS performing in this role will be well within Indian airspace protecting cities, strategic assets and supply chains etc... They will be afforded the maximum defense from other IAF and army aviation assets too.

I am talking of course in the future when there are at least 5 of them....and which will be ramped up to larger numbers with time.

It will be the embraer AWACS that will provide more flexible tactical coverage for Indian forward forces I would imagine....the aircraft itself being a smaller target, more maneuverable (for evasion) while still packing a real punch etc.... How those will be integrated in the system I am talking about (a look down defensive matrix) will remain to be seen since their capabilities are still being developed.
I had asked this : what will be the long distance target for Pak C-Missile or UAV or UCAV?.

Reason was to differentiate what PAF can take out with ARM/SOW and what PA missile command can take out with CM's etc.

Considering that PAF acts on own initiative to start taking out IAF radar system by ARM's, lets see some positions of IAF Radars in the image. This isnt made by me. I picked it up from google. A red font would have been better on this back ground.

Dark blue diamonds represent P-12/18 or Indra-II radar systems, while light blue diamonds represent THD-1955 radar facilities. Blue circles represent 36D6 radar facilities. The range rings given for the 36D6 sites represent the 165 km acquisition range against a typical fighter-size target.

Most of these are so close to the LOC that PAF can take them out using ARM's or even H2 and H-4 SOW before IAF AWACS sends alert aircraft. The IAF Radars in Kashmir/Northern Punjab overlook parts of Pakistan airspace so PAF is expected to strike there.
INDIASAMNETEW.jpg

Coming to DEAD missions. The following are some positions of IAF SAM sites. The S-125M has two specific drawbacks: range and single-target engagement capability. The ability of the system to engage one target per battery is partially mitigated by placing multiple batteries at many locations, but the 25 km maximum range of the system effectively reduces its role to one of point defence only, lacking the range to provide long-range overlapping fields of fire necessary for a more robust air defence network.

The ones in Kashmir and Northern Punjab (Gurdaspur/Pathankot/Amritsar axis) will be PAF's targets and with close proximity to borders, PAF can fire SOW (H-4) from within borders to take them out
INDIASAMNETSA3ACTIVE.jpg


So till now, the use of CM's/UAV/UCAV for SEAD/DEAD ops is not required unless south-western part of Indian radar and SAM assets need to be taken out, but i doubt it.

Assuming 5 AWACS with 3 in the air at any time....I would imagine something like this:

cmfKuLT.jpg


With gentle turn holding patterns for each one till they are rotated by a replacement. The smaller AWACS platforms will add on top of this as will any additional large Phalcon sized AWACS the IAF gets beyond the 5 it will be operating in the near future. I would assume it would be the smaller ones that would be changing sector given operational needs within IND or PAK airspace....but the phalcons themselves are more strategic I would imagine and must not venture into Pakistan airspace I think.

Some protection will be afforded by the northern most sentry to JnK (esp chicken neck area), but JnK does not have the level of strategic assets and population to defend as the other areas....so with 5 strategic AWACS, I do not see one being dedicated there purely. But it could potentially have a smaller one or two there depending on what type of operations the army want to conduct from there against the opponent. Maybe with time as sentry numbers are increased it will get a large strategic dedicated platform too....but right now I don't think so.
There is a huge tactical mistake in the map you made(if u made it). Indian Kashmir has minimal or no AWACS Coverage.
In any case, if India puts AWACS in I-kashmir, it will remain threatened from western direction (Skardu airbase), south western (Peshawar airbase) and south (Chaklala and Lahore airbases) by PAF and other FOB's in between these. So operating an AWACS in I-Kashmir will be a headache for IAF.

Secondly, the northern AWACS showing coverage area beyond Lahore and till Multan, is very close to border. The coverage area is shown till Gujrat in Pakistan. The road distance between Lahore and Gujrat is around 140km, assuming aerial distance will be 90-100 km meaning IAF AWACS is around 300km from border (since you said radius is 400km). PAF will monitor its flight pattern and may strike it at first opportunity because its monitoring PAF operations/airbases and monitoring PA operations on ground inside Pak. LD-10 may come into play.
I believe so.
I asked Integration of SAM radar and AWACS because of redundancy. Can IAF AWACS control SAM sites operations if SAM radars are taken out?


Yes this was tested, demonstrated and confirmed earlier.
This means IAF can form a potent aerial AD network through Mig-29 and Mig-21 and top tier being SU 30MKI.

Its potent capability that IAF should not underestimate. But the Phalcon AWACS has the nature of AESA going for it which is very difficult to jam given its multi-band, low amplitude spectrum....and the fact it can act as PESA at any time should the need arise. I believe the PAF doctrine would focus more on using its air assets to counter intruder AWACS (which would be more likely to be the embraer platforms) and rather target the strategic ones with AWACs killing missiles when the opportunity presents itself (with a lot of finger crossing involved).

How the situation evolves with the years to come as more technologies come online (Ga-N vs Ga-As adoption, particular module upgrades NATO does for the E-3 which I am following closely and also how HARM seekers improve) remains to be seen. It will be a cat and mouse game like anything else.
I conveyed wrongly, what i meant to ask was IAF AWACS jamming intruding PAF aircrafts radars?

It wont be easy to jam IAF AWACS by PAF aircrafts, so PAF may devise some other methods countering IAF AWACS.

Excellent. These were the points I expected someone to finally bring up when I quoted 400 km as the range.

Firstly its a range to horizon at maximum service ceiling. This is the maximum feasible pick up range (and you have to remember that an aircraft endurance sweet zone is not at its service ceiling....but thats another discussion for another time since we are talking maximum potential capability here).
Its effective range for ground hugging cruise missile tracking will of course be some fraction of this 400km...which is unknown and will probably remain so (it is dependent on the algorithm quality esp SNR processing channels). But I would imagine the Israelis have developed some pretty potent ones that the DRDO and others would have optimised for Indian conditions/use.

I would also imagine all clutter/noise/weather effects will be tested extensively in peace time against real low flying bogies and refine the algorithms as needed. It will definitely not be a "first time" experience for the AWAC operators during a potential conflict.
I was hoping for some calculations from your side when you mentioned "technicalities" in some other post.

For example: with maximum service ceiling, meaning max distance from ground and most outer circumference of radiated signal into ground clutter , will incur maximum losses which will make it hard to pick up ground hugging areial target like a CM/UAV (with an altitude of say 100m?)

Softwares can be made upgraded to increase electronic output from sensors/antennas/radars or to detect more types of hardwares/metallic surfaces/ etc.

But will a smallest RCS object be detected at maximum range when clutter losses just have to be there? (Knowing that the output power of an AWACS radar is extremely powerful)

SNR is something different but it will get affected more due to losses. You mentioned processing (signal processing?), it comes into play when the target is emitting signals(radar) which i doubt that a CM or UAV will.

However what about jamming of terrain hugging CM or UAV guidance system by AWACS?
 

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