‘Pakistan Navy fully capable of defending country’s long coast’

[GriffinsRule]

Technically the Navy isnt wrong about being able to defend the coastline ... but what remains a concern is what will happen to its assets out at sea -_-
Of course the last 5 pages of this thread have not a single post that would be of any use when trying to get any knowledge or constructive ideas about what PN should/could be doing or even what its current capabilities are.
For eg., someone actually compared the performance of the Phalanx CIWS from the Falkland War from 1982 to criticize a weapon system and its utility now for its role ... as if there would have been no upgrades to its systems for tracking and engagement whatsoever in the last 35 years!
And this whole debate about missiles is just ridiculous way to talk about naval warfare even ... for eg. when an aircraft is targeted with a missile, does it then have to shoot the incoming missile down to ensure survival? CIWS and such systems are last ditch measures to survive against an attack. If any ship is located first and successfully targeted, it has already lost and is a matter of time before its sunk. But it does have some measures in the meantime to survive an initial assault, that includes evasive maneuvering, chaff and flares to confuse the missile guidance and even electronic jamming and spoofing, all of which are essential to its survival.
I have very limited understanding of naval warfare, but there is a reason why having situational awareness is the bread and butter of any successful fighting force. Knowing your location as well as those of your allied ships and subs while locating the enemy forces without being spotted first and thus gaining the element of surprise is essential in any scenario I can think of. While IN has now with its acquisition of the P-8Is, taken a giant leap in that direction, PN has a long history of also operating better ASW and surveillance assets. While I am not privy to our exact capabilities, target and acquisition has to be enhanced for our larger ships to be able to make effective use of the smaller missile boats as they themselves have no such capability worth mentioning. Maybe it is already in the 10 or 15yr plan the navy has, which it is implementing slowly, who knows.

But hey, I think I get it ... the reason for most posts on this thread and others like it must be to increase the number of messages, as if that amounts to something? Must be why I see people posting the same news item or picture in three different thread one after another.

 

[Ultima Thule]

yeah that's exactly my point...but still if some intellectuals believe here if that's not possible than simply get a mach 3 short range SAM..how difficult is that???

I have seen there are many pakitanies here..who love to make baat ka batangar..and try to install fear of enemy in our hearts..oh we are doomed..and all that

It doesn't mean that we should undermine our enemy..we should respect enemy's capabilities and try to deter them and that's exactly what we have been doing for 70 years...but it also doesn't mean portraying your enemy some alien power..who will destroys us in a blink of an eye...and we will be left helpless..thee things look good in Marvel series/bollywood movies..but they are not consistent with reality

Reaction time is most concern of target ship against supersonic target missiles, lets suppose that supersonic anti ship missile entering terminal phase from the target ship (20 Km) it will take 20 to 25 sec to reach to the target ship, whereas subsonic one can travel that distance in 120 to 140 sec, semi active SAM like FM-90 rather less accurate system against supersonic anti ship missiles, supersonic anti ship missiles have a big IR RCS you need to short range IR SAM to intercept supersonic anti ship missiles some those Chinese FL-3000, US RAM, UK CAMM and Russian Tunguska

 

[Corona]

Pakistani posters accusing @Oscar of being an Indian Troll ! I have seen it all on PDF !

I know right. Some of the people here would go against anyone just to claim Pakistan can beat India

 

[Cookie Monster]

Sadi Mashoori ho rihi hai.. cultural problem.

I agree that IN capabilities far exceed PN's...and here the debate will never end with fanboys batting for PN with extra nationalism while others will argue on the contrary. My question to u is what's Pakistan's plan(whether short or long term) to close this gap?

I know that Pakistan can't support a navy as large as India but perhaps more A2/AD assets(like submarines, coastal batteries, etc) with long range missiles might keep IN far enough to prevent a blockade?

 

[ghauri05]

Reaction time is most concern of target ship against supersonic target missiles, lets suppose that supersonic anti ship missile entering terminal phase from the target ship (20 Km) it will take 20 to 25 sec to reach to the target ship, whereas subsonic one can travel that distance in 120 to 140 sec, semi active SAM like FM-90 rather less accurate system against supersonic anti ship missiles, supersonic anti ship missiles have a big IR RCS you need to short range IR SAM to intercept supersonic anti ship missiles some those Chinese FL-3000, US RAM, UK CAMM and Russian Tunguska

1.when supersonic have huge IR RCS..it means they can be detected way before...right???e.g brahmos has 300km range..the moment it is launched it will be illuminated on radar..but still say at 100 km..we have a perfect track of the missile.....so why are we waiting for brahmos to enter terminal phase(20km) we can hit it it before

2.as you mentioned that that if we use better IR SAM with short range..we can tackle it..so my point is brahmos is not something out of the world..which u tried to imply..we just need to improve our current stock of missile particularly SAMs..and honestly i am sure you are aware that our all the armed forces are quite weak in this particular area..but we have started procuring SAMs now..like LY-80..so hopefully in future we will be able to induct such SAMs to protect our assets.

 

[Gryphon]

Phalanx CIWS failed against exocet missile in UK Argentinian war resulting in the destruction of 2 Royal Navy ships.

someone actually compared the performance of the Phalanx CIWS from the Falkland War from 1982 to criticize a weapon system and its utility now for its role ... as if there would have been no upgrades to its systems for tracking and engagement whatsoever in the last 35 years!

During the Falklands war, RN Type 21 frigates had SeaCat SAM system, and the Phalanx was installed more than a decade later, by Pakistan Navy.

 

[SQ8]

PAF Fleet of 8 AWACS is enough surveillance capability for Pakistani and sea area.

Yes, all of them will be

1.when supersonic have huge IR RCS..it means they can be detected way before...right???e.g brahmos has 300km range..the moment it is launched it will be illuminated on radar..but still say at 100 km..we have a perfect track of the missile.....so why are we waiting for brahmos to enter terminal phase(20km) we can hit it it before

2.as you mentioned that that if we use better IR SAM with short range..we can tackle it..so my point is brahmos is not something out of the world..which u tried to imply..we just need to improve our current stock of missile particularly SAMs..and honestly i am sure you are aware that our all the armed forces are quite weak in this particular area..but we have started procuring SAMs now..like LY-80..so hopefully in future we will be able to induct such SAMs to protect our assets.

The Brahmos can be killed or avoided as unlike a subsonic missile it cannot reengage effectively after a miss.
However, the problem is that enmasse launches(much like the soviets planned in the 80’s) will overwhelm even AEGIS equipped air Defence destroyers in CVBG, let alone a rag tag flotilla like the PN.
One way the USN planned to tackle AShMs was the F-14. Basically engaging enemy threats at long range.

So the MKIs I mentioned here could be kept at bay using extended combat air patrols and ZDK-03s surveillance(the systems air&sea detection performance is quite good). That would require deployment of F-16s at Masroor since the JF-17 may not have the endurance with payload at range without refuelling.

Basically, the semi-selfishness present in all arms has left Pakistani coastlines very vulnerable.. and this is to a realistically bumbling Indian military structure which too has itself in a mess due to inter service rivalry and idiotic purchasing and maintenance patterns.

 

[YeBeWarned]

Yes, all of them will be

The Brahmos can be killed or avoided as unlike a subsonic missile it cannot reengage effectively after a miss.
However, the problem is that enmasse launches(much like the soviets planned in the 80’s) will overwhelm even AEGIS equipped air Defence destroyers in CVBG, let alone a rag tag flotilla like the PN.
One way the USN planned to tackle AShMs was the F-14. Basically engaging enemy threats at long range.

So the MKIs I mentioned here could be kept at bay using extended combat air patrols and ZDK-03s surveillance(the systems air&sea detection performance is quite good). That would require deployment of F-16s at Masroor since the JF-17 may not have the endurance with payload at range without refuelling.

Basically, the semi-selfishness present in all arms has left Pakistani coastlines very vulnerable.. and this is to a realistically bumbling Indian military structure which too has itself in a mess due to inter service rivalry and idiotic purchasing and maintenance patterns.

Ocsar, first of all i am sorry that you have to read such stupid comments from your fellow countrymen ..

how do you see the current procurement plans for PN which so far seems to be in better if not best direction ?
1x Type 54A with following 3 more will replace the old type 21 , Turkish Ada Class ( rumored ) Milgem II 4(x) , 2x Damen OPV which in Combat what purpose it can serve ? along with 2x Swiftship 75m Corvette ?

 

[Blue Marlin]

i feel the naval cheif is using his words carefully. he said the navy can defend the coast. in short it can with long range asm and sams that the minimum requirements. as far as naval assets are concerned the indian coast guard is more than enough. the most capable vessle is the f22p and and that is formidable due to the twin
type 730 cwis

the newer frigates on order which are the type 054a's obviously have a greater capabilities specifically in the hq-16 which may be able to engage asm's

the type 052d are apparently going for $500 million
which meets pakistan requirements

people fail to understand naval assets are very expensive. especially when you compare it to a $5 million tank or a $85 million fighter jet. and with 8 subs on order the matter does not help, especially when you consider the cost to upkeep the amazon frigates which are very, very old.

 

[Safriz]

Yes, all of them will be

The Brahmos can be killed or avoided as unlike a subsonic missile it cannot reengage effectively after a miss.
However, the problem is that enmasse launches(much like the soviets planned in the 80’s) will overwhelm even AEGIS equipped air Defence destroyers in CVBG, let alone a rag tag flotilla like the PN.
One way the USN planned to tackle AShMs was the F-14. Basically engaging enemy threats at long range.

So the MKIs I mentioned here could be kept at bay using extended combat air patrols and ZDK-03s surveillance(the systems air&sea detection performance is quite good). That would require deployment of F-16s at Masroor since the JF-17 may not have the endurance with payload at range without refuelling.

Basically, the semi-selfishness present in all arms has left Pakistani coastlines very vulnerable.. and this is to a realistically bumbling Indian military structure which too has itself in a mess due to inter service rivalry and idiotic purchasing and maintenance patterns.

Also compare how much coastline India will have to defend and how much Pakistan will have to!?
It's not that all 16 Indian frigates will come and attack Pakistan or Pakistan will deploy all 8 AWACS to keep watch on Indian navy.
We are at advantage at smaller area to defend and needing smaller navy.

 

[syed_yusuf]

4 type 54a and 4 melgim 2 plus 4 f-22p and 2 91 meter opv, supported by good air assetts and land based antiship missiles will just do it. Remember that PN sub assetts will be close to 8 by 2020.

PN will transformed into formidable force by 2022 . But then again it is all relevant to who u r comparing too.

 

[SQ8]

Ocsar, first of all i am sorry that you have to read such stupid comments from your fellow countrymen ..

how do you see the current procurement plans for PN which so far seems to be in better if not best direction ?
1x Type 54A with following 3 more will replace the old type 21 , Turkish Ada Class ( rumored ) Milgem II 4(x) , 2x Damen OPV which in Combat what purpose it can serve ? along with 2x Swiftship 75m Corvette ?

The 54’s will greately increase air defence and chances of survival against moderate missile attacks. I still dont think the IN is going to employ these concentrated attacks simply because it requires planning and equipment availability which from what Ive heard is not even close to what shows on paper; yet the idea is to be ready to combat what’s on paper instead of what is assumed to be the actual state.

The ADA is a rumor so best left at that, the Milgems will still need air cover along with the swiftships.

Basically, the idea of defence against concentrated missile attacks was realized during the cold war in tiers:

First is the surveillance screen
Second is interception of threats well out of range of the naval group (some of the A2/Ad measures undertaken by PN conform to it)
Third is highly capable (if expensive) air defence pickets that protect the less capable or specialized systems.

Also compare how much coastline India will have to defend and how much Pakistan will have to!?
It's not that all 16 Indian frigates will come and attack Pakistan or Pakistan will deploy all 8 AWACS to keep watch on Indian navy.
We are at advantage at smaller area to defend and needing smaller navy.

How much coastline will India have to defend if the entire threat is from its western border?
Perhaps the Chinese might assist but generally that is a fools hope.
So that lets India commit completely to the western front for it.

Also, India has no law binding it to use only its frigates; the entire force structure can be used and used quite sparingly as well.

The bakance still remains in their favor for surface dominance by a large number.

 

[Army research]

The 54’s will greately increase air defence and chances of survival against moderate missile attacks. I still dont think the IN is going to employ these concentrated attacks simply because it requires planning and equipment availability which from what Ive heard is not even close to what shows on paper; yet the idea is to be ready to combat what’s on paper instead of what is assumed to be the actual state.

The ADA is a rumor so best left at that, the Milgems will still need air cover along with the swiftships.

Basically, the idea of defence against concentrated missile attacks was realized during the cold war in tiers:

First is the surveillance screen
Second is interception of threats well out of range of the naval group (some of the A2/Ad measures undertaken by PN conform to it)
Third is highly capable (if expensive) air defence pickets that protect the less capable or specialized systems.


How much coastline will India have to defend if the entire threat is from its western border?
Perhaps the Chinese might assist but generally that is a fools hope.
So that lets India commit completely to the western front for it.

Also, India has no law binding it to use only its frigates; the entire force structure can be used and used quite sparingly as well.

The bakance still remains in their favor for surface dominance by a large number.

Sir how effective do you reckon the submarines would be as anti ship attack assets ?

 

[xyxmt]

never in the history (french excluded), an army has ever said "Sorry cant do it"

 

[YeBeWarned]

The 54’s will greately increase air defence and chances of survival against moderate missile attacks. I still dont think the IN is going to employ these concentrated attacks simply because it requires planning and equipment availability which from what Ive heard is not even close to what shows on paper; yet the idea is to be ready to combat what’s on paper instead of what is assumed to be the actual state.

The ADA is a rumor so best left at that, the Milgems will still need air cover along with the swiftships.

Basically, the idea of defence against concentrated missile attacks was realized during the cold war in tiers:

First is the surveillance screen
Second is interception of threats well out of range of the naval group (some of the A2/Ad measures undertaken by PN conform to it)
Third is highly capable (if expensive) air defence pickets that protect the less capable or specialized systems.

So type 54's is a step in the right direction, What i am still failed to understand that why PN hasn't put a FL-3000 RAM on F-22 for Point Defense instead they add 2 CIWS ?
What do you think would be role of our extensively large Submarine Fleet ? i mean there must be a reason we just invested close to 5b$ in buying 8 Subs ..
does IN has Net Centric Warfare Capability ?

well so far Ada is rumor so yeah but i personally bet my 2 cents that Turkey will manage to sell ADA and T-129's to Pakistan after they reach onto some Financial Agreements .

by Surveillance screen you mean AWAC's right ?