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Pakistan Extends Delayed T129 Helo Deal with Turkey — Again


By: Burak Ege Bekdil , Usman Ansari , and Joe Gould  



ANKARA, Turkey, ISLAMABAD, and WASHINGTON — Pakistan has agreed to, yet again, extend a deal with Turkey for T129 Atak helicopters — a planned procurement riddled with delays.

“We have obtained a six-month extension from Pakistan,” Turkey’s top procurement official, Ismail Demir, told reporters March 12.

But — amid Washington’s enduring opposition to Ankara purchasing the Russian-made S-400 Triumf air defense system — another senior procurement official in Turkey told Defense News that the extension doesn’t imply the deal will ultimately work out.

“This is not a technological or commercial issue,” he said. “It is purely political, and as long as the reasons for the U.S. blockade remain in effect ... what looks like a Turkish-Pakistani deal will be a victim of a Turkish-U.S. dispute.”

How did it all begin?

In 2018, Pakistan chose Turkey’s T192 attack helicopters to replace its fleet of AH−1F Cobra gunships that were acquired in the 1980s. Pakistan signed a $1.5 billion contract with Turkish Aerospace Industries for 30 T129 helos; however, the company must first secure U.S. export licenses before delivery can take place.
The 5-ton T129 is a twin-engine multirole attack helicopter produced under license from the Italian-British company AgustaWestland and based on the A129 Mangusta. It’s powered by two LHTEC T800-4A turboshaft engines. Each engine can produce 1,014 kilowatts of output power. The T800-4A is an export version of the CTS800 engine. LHTEC, the maker of the engine, is a joint venture between the American firm Honeywell and the British company Rolls-Royce.
The deal is in limbo because of U.S. hesitancy to issue export licenses for the engine, but a Turkish aerospace official explained that isn’t the only hiccup.

“There are other components the Americans can refuse to issue export licenses for,” he said. “We have the impression that the T129 deal would not go through without a political go-ahead from Washington.”

In January 2020, Pakistan extended the deadline for TAI to deliver the helicopters, but with the sale in jeopardy, the Turkish government tasked Tusas Engine Industries, TAI’s sister company, with developing an indigenous engine for the T129.
Pakistan has agreed to give us another year [to resolve the problem]. We hope we will be able to develop our indigenous engine soon to power the T129,” Ismail Demir, the head of Turkey’s top procurement agency, said at the time. “After one year, Pakistan may be satisfied with the level of progress in our engine program, or the U.S. may grant us the export license.”

Will the US change course?

U.S. lawmakers have quietly frozen all major U.S. arms sales to the NATO ally to pressure Ankara to abandon its Russian-built S-400.

Separate from the engines, the Biden administration pulled back requests made to Congress to approve sales to Turkey’s defense procurement agency, the Presidency of Defence Industries, on which the U.S. imposed sanctions in December 2020 in response to the S-400 purchase.
Honeywell withdrew the engine export request early last year, but then resubmitted it in August. Yet, according to a U.S. government source with knowledge of the issue, Washington’s stance hasn’t shifted.

“I don’t see that changing. First of all, it’s Turkey. The Hill has not been clearing arms cases for Turkey at all ... and the reason is the S-400,” the source told Defense News on condition of anonymity.

If congressional committees did clear the export sale, “it’s very likely there would be a legislative effort to block it, so it wouldn’t be surprising that the Turks, after two years, realized what the situation is and are looking for alternatives,” the source added.

U.S. lawmakers are also concerned that the engines for the attack helicopters could add to Pakistan’s ground attack capability against India, with which the U.S. has been deepening defense and security relationships.

Is there an alternative helicopter?
Defense News contacted Pakistan’s Ministry of Defence Production, which handles procurement, and the Army through the Inter Services Public Relations media arm about the extension and whether there is an alternative helicopter under consideration if the deal falls apart. Neither responded, nor did TAI to questions about the state of the deal.

Before the T129 was chosen, China sent three of its CAIC Z-10 helicopter gunships for trials in Pakistan, but it appeared they failed to sufficiently impress officials and were returned.

Asked if Washington might clear the tech export as a means of retaining a level of influence over Pakistan amid negotiations with the Taliban in neighboring Afghanistan, former Australian defense attache to Islamabad Brian Cloughley was not optimistic. (Pakistan has historically had influence over the Taliban.)

He also said Pakistan’s military is cautious about using American equipment. “There is wariness in the Pakistan military concerning equipment of U.S. origin or with U.S.-supplied components,” he said, “simply because if the operator engages in hostilities with a more decided ally of the U.S., then delivery of these items could be affected.”

“In the case of Pakistan, it is unlikely that Washington would be prepared to provide such equipment should there be conflict with India,” he added. “The solution for Pakistan seems to lie, yet again, in China. It is likely that the Pakistan Army will evaluate the Chinese Z-10ME attack helicopter.”

2% is all turkey have to share with some harami seniors in USA. That's it.
 
That's ridiculous, and you know it; or you have the same definition of "soon" as commonly used by Indians.

They have just run the second prototype and it will take still years of testing the engine, integrating it into the T-129, certifying the engine and the engine on the T-129 and I'm sure Pakistan won't jump the wagon without decent additional testing to be sure it works.

Believe me ... it will take years.
Financially broke Ukraine is selling all its technologies around the world. Ukraine is goldmine of technology. It's best time for Chines to buy all those companies. Chinese has sitting stash .... Ukraine recently provided Turkey drone engines and now helicopter engines.
 
If the Americans are to be "believed", Pakistan can purchase equipment from the USA if they are prepared to pay hard cash.

So, why cant Pakistan purchase the engines directly, and TAI does final integration and testing in Pakistan?

If the Americans are prepared to sell to Pakistan, then this side steps the issue ?
 
You all are reading the situation all wrong.
Z10 is an excellent platform and with its improvements according to our specs it's a damn good attack hele. But still Pakistan is resisting to buy it...why u must be thinking

Their is "hold" on most projects under cpec for almost a year now. Pakistan is demanding somthing of china n unless China give in, it will remain so.

The day that happens z10 and j10 with some other things will be in Pak.

Hence the extension.
Thank you for an illuminating post. My problem is having been out of Pakistan you dont get a pulse on what has been going on. Your post was the one that made me sit up and notice. It is indeed a very interesting turn of events. What does Paklands want? My thinking is a review of all CPEC projects and higher content of local labour in the building of projects. China is also putting some pressure on Pakistan to buy J10s and possibly holding out on PL15 AT LEAST till we commit to buy J10.
Please advise as to whether I/am on the right line of thinking and if wrong and you can please correct me
Regards
A
Financially broke Ukraine is selling all its technologies around the world. Ukraine is goldmine of technology. It's best time for Chines to buy all those companies. Chinese has sitting stash .... Ukraine recently provided Turkey drone engines and now helicopter engines.
But on US Pressure it has resisted Chinese move to buy the IP OF the helo engine plant.
So things are not as rosy as they seem.
A
 
Thank you for an illuminating post. My problem is having been out of Pakistan you dont get a pulse on what has been going on. Your post was the one that made me sit up and notice. It is indeed a very interesting turn of events. What does Paklands want? My thinking is a review of all CPEC projects and higher content of local labour in the building of projects. China is also putting some pressure on Pakistan to buy J10s and possibly holding out on PL15 AT LEAST till we commit to buy J10.
Please advise as to whether I/am on the right line of thinking and if wrong and you can please correct me
Regards
A

But on US Pressure it has resisted Chinese move to buy the IP OF the helo engine plant.
So things are not as rosy as they seem.
A
99% of the workforce is Pakistani and that is not the issue, the loans taken in the previous term and their terms of reference, the govt wants a revisit and a writeoff.
 
99% of the workforce is Pakistani and that is not the issue, the loans taken in the previous term and their terms of reference, the govt wants a revisit and a writeoff.
Thank you for your post. I thought it might have been something like that as Razzak Dawood had hinted that the terms and conditions of these loans need to be revisited before the PM's first visit to China. At that time they got snubbed by the Chinese so now they are applying the squeeze. Hopefully it will work out in Pakistan's favour.
A
 
If the Americans are to be "believed", Pakistan can purchase equipment from the USA if they are prepared to pay hard cash.

So, why cant Pakistan purchase the engines directly, and TAI does final integration and testing in Pakistan?

If the Americans are prepared to sell to Pakistan, then this side steps the issue ?
The problem comes into the technical expertise, and supply chain issues.

If everything comes through Turkey, then Pakistan has less of a headache to worry about, because it would be Turkey that has to worry about logistics. If Pakistan buys the engines directly, that means Pakistan would have to negotiate with the US, and coordinate with Turkey to make this deal happen. In other words, too much of a headache.

Second, Turkey would have to have to open a production facility in Pakistan, which could end up costing upwards of a lot of money, which would end up eating into Turkey's profits. Turkey isn't gonna do that simply for a few dozen attack helicopters. That's not mentioning Turkey would have to station technical experts in Pakistan to make sure everything is running smoothly, and up to standard.

Third, the cost would probably be exponentially higher for Pakistan and Turkey, and Pakistan doesn't have that kind of cash, nor does Turkey want to jeopardize its profits.

I personally think the deal is dead, unless Turkey can provide a domestic solution.
 
The problem comes into the technical expertise, and supply chain issues.

If everything comes through Turkey, then Pakistan has less of a headache to worry about, because it would be Turkey that has to worry about logistics. If Pakistan buys the engines directly, that means Pakistan would have to negotiate with the US, and coordinate with Turkey to make this deal happen. In other words, too much of a headache.

Second, Turkey would have to have to open a production facility in Pakistan, which could end up costing upwards of a lot of money, which would end up eating into Turkey's profits. Turkey isn't gonna do that simply for a few dozen attack helicopters. That's not mentioning Turkey would have to station technical experts in Pakistan to make sure everything is running smoothly, and up to standard.

Third, the cost would probably be exponentially higher for Pakistan and Turkey, and Pakistan doesn't have that kind of cash, nor does Turkey want to jeopardize its profits.

I personally think the deal is dead, unless Turkey can provide a domestic solution.
Production facility is way too costly. Better have state of the art maintenance facility. If Pak want production line then have to find the buyers in the market. Pakistan requirement may be not more then 100 atak heli. After production, what Pak will do with facility and all the equipment.
 
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Thank you for an illuminating post. My problem is having been out of Pakistan you dont get a pulse on what has been going on. Your post was the one that made me sit up and notice. It is indeed a very interesting turn of events. What does Paklands want? My thinking is a review of all CPEC projects and higher content of local labour in the building of projects. China is also putting some pressure on Pakistan to buy J10s and possibly holding out on PL15 AT LEAST till we commit to buy J10.
Please advise as to whether I/am on the right line of thinking and if wrong and you can please correct me
Regards
A

But on US Pressure it has resisted Chinese move to buy the IP OF the helo engine plant.
So things are not as rosy as they seem.
A
Yes, still issues ...


Ukrainian authorities announced Thursday they plan to nationalise Motor Sich, an aircraft engine manufacturer majority-owned by Chinese companies.
The move will likely raise tensions with Beijing, but be welcomed by Kiev’s key ally Washington, which recently blacklisted a Chinese investor.
“The decision has been taken to return Motor Sich to the Ukrainian people,” Oleksiy Danylov, the head of the national security and defence council, said following a meeting of the body.
The nationalisation “will take place soon using the legal procedure,” he said without providing further details.
Chinese firms including Skyrizon Aviation have acquired in recent years a 75 per cent stake in Motor Sich, according to a government source cited by the Interfax-Ukraine news agency.


The US Department of Commerce in January blacklisted Skyrizon Aviation and said the firm’s “predatory investments and technology acquisitions in Ukraine represent an unacceptable risk of diversion to military end use in the PRC”.


China’s stealth fighter faces engine problems
Motor Sich makes engines for helicopters and aircraft, including for large commercial planes that China is in the process of developing but does not yet have the know-how to make domestically.

Motor Sich also makes engines that can be used for cruise missiles and drones.
 

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You all are reading the situation all wrong.
Z10 is an excellent platform and with its improvements according to our specs it's a damn good attack hele. But still Pakistan is resisting to buy it...why u must be thinking

Their is "hold" on most projects under cpec for almost a year now. Pakistan is demanding somthing of china n unless China give in, it will remain so.

The day that happens z10 and j10 with some other things will be in Pak.

Hence the extension.

What does Pakistan demand ?
 
Pakistan is not in hurry for gunship. The advance of UCAV has makes the necessary become non urgent. Surely PA knows the engine problem cannot be solved in 6 months. Pakistan is more like wanting this deal to be closed by Turkey.

End of the day, China already clinched bulk of Pakistan military deal like UCAV, Frigates, Submarine , JF-17 and VT-4 MBT. It doesn't surprised me PA just wants this deal to be secured by Turkey to cement further deeper defense cooperation.
 
It doesn't surprised me PA just wants this deal to be secured by Turkey to cement further deeper defense cooperation.

That is basically it, it has deep political significance. Pakistan wants to work with Turkey on high end weapons manufacturing. etc.
 

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